Wade in Tmac's Orlando situation

[xcomputerman]

im not bashing one player to make myself feel better .. and i find that Contradicting when you bashed Kobe to make yourself feel better for t Mac not having any rings

Please point to where I bashed Kobe (and feel free to conveniently ignore how I've praised all three players).

(When T Mac played through injury) That earned T Mac a worst Injury but thats T Mac .. Thats why he is not mentioned amongst the greats cause as i have mentioned before greats manage through the injuries or heal it up quickly ..

Tell me, do you really blow this much smoke in real life?

And how is that squad so "Horrible" Great Role players

Apparently you have some problems with reading comprehension. Try rereading the statement in which I used the word "horrible", and then try again.

[Baller 24]

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Nice point but i dont buy it .. Kobe has not lead his team to a Chip since Shaq has left true but none has been his fault he was scoring 45 and 50 on a nightly Basis just to get his team some wins .. though it may not have got him any awards he really "Carried" a team .. He Carried them to the playoffs not to mention almost upset the suns in this tough Western Conference

Going by your logic why dont we put Kobe on T Mac's team that seems to do well without him ? Guarente you they contend for the chip or take it all the way .. Heck even put Wade on T Macs team and they are probaly instand Contenders .. at least wade will play through injuries.

T Mac is always injured and that is what has plagued his Career

I agree with everything you have said, but including the past season Tmac and Wade have played almost exactly the same number of games, and have put up almost the same number of stats. Now the question is can Wade carry a team without Shaq? Its hard to do so when you lose a big man like that, just look at Kobe. Even if you lose a big man like Yao its going to be damn tough to win in the west. But for the Rockets the percentage is the other way around. The Rockets winning percentage without Tmac is only a tragic 23%. Of course when Tmac plays the Rockets play VERY WELL. Just look at last season as an example, we didn't have much depth at all, Yao was out for 32 games, Tmac carried his team to a 20-12 record during that span, while he averaged 30pts, 6ast, 6red, on 46% shooting. He helped us to win 52 games....and ended up 4th in MVP voting.

[Griever24]

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Apparently you have some problems with reading comprehension. Try rereading the statement in which I used the word "horrible", and then try again.

do you forget what you posted every 10 mins ? and now your bashing me with the reading comprehension remark and telling mer to use my brain for once which are toally unneccassery comments ...

for the horrible ..

Now you're just throwing in random BS you've been reading around the "internets". The Rockets in the past have been downright *horrible* whenever T-Mac is out. You really want to make the argument that because Adelman finally figured out how to generate some offense without using McGrady and took advantage of a weak schedule, they're now better off without him? LOL.

T Mac better than Kobe if he was in his shoes ? what kind of pipe is that i want some

One could even bring Kobe up in this situation. Look at the past few years - ever since he and Shaq were separated he hasn't been able to "carry" his team past the first round either. But of course, you won't see people making such ridiculous statements as "Kobe is not a superstar" now, would you?

It's the superstar's burden to do as much as he can to carry his team to glory. But they never, ever succeed by doing it alone. In McGrady's case, he just has never been fortunate enough to have good enough teammates around him to enjoy playoff success. The others have seen their stock fall as their teams fell apart. If you want to see some numbers that'll make your head spin, check out David Berri's blog at WagesOfWins (dberri.wordpress.com) where he compares Bryant and McGrady's careers and concludes that while Bryant has been a slightly better scorer, he has had a far superior supporting cast and that if they were to theoretically switch teammates, McGrady would have had even greater success

Seemed kindda Bashful since your using to make T Mac look good but does not look as bashful as i first saw .. i apoligize but at least when i know something i said was wrong i will admit to it .. it seems like in your eyes you can never be wrong

[Datruth345]

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You totally dismissed the thoughts, and therefore made your own and are therefore wrong for it. -- There's no one individual totally dismissing Shaq as a key cog in the Heat's success (or demise).

Try again.

figures

[xcomputerman]

-T Mac better than Kobe if he was in his shoes ? what kind of pipe is that i want some ...

Seemed kindda Bashful since your using to make T Mac look good

*This* is exactly why I said you seem to have problems with reading comprehension. I did not say that, David Berri did. I merely made a reference to his article. If you want to address that argument, you'll have to read the article first and the supporting statistical data he showed as proof.

And apparently you're still having trouble understanding the "horrible" statement. Let me quote it again:

"The Rockets in the past have been downright *horrible* whenever T-Mac is out."

Tell me, how did you manage to read that sentence as "T-Mac has a horrible supporting cast"?

[shaqfan1]

Great. This has gone from a "See, I told you. It wasn't Tmac's fault he could never get out of the first round, it was his supporting cast. What's happening to Wade right now proves it. So now please stop saying Tmac can't get out of the first round" thread to a "See I told you Wade isn't better than Kobe. He's not even a superstar because he's lost 13 in a row" thread to a "Tmac is better than Kobe and you have bad reading comprehension. No, Kobe is better than Tmac and you have bad reading comprehension" thread.

[xcomputerman]

Great. This has gone from a "See, I told you. It wasn't Tmac's fault he could never get out of the first round, it was his supporting cast. What's happening to Wade right now proves it. So now please stop saying Tmac can't get out of the first round" thread to a "See I told you Wade isn't better than Kobe. He's not even a superstar because he's lost 13 in a row" thread to a "Tmac is better than Kobe and you have bad reading comprehension. No, Kobe is better than Tmac and you have bad reading comprehension" thread.

Yeah...actually I apologize for being so snippy. It's hard to respond objectively to people when they can't even read what you write correctly and all they do is spew BS back at you.

[Griever24]

But why bring his article out now on a Wade T Mac discussion ? a article that derails Kobe and Compliments T Mac ?

Now you're just throwing in random BS you've been reading around the "internets". The Rockets in the past have been downright *horrible* whenever T-Mac is out. You really want to make the argument that because Adelman finally figured out how to generate some offense without using McGrady and took advantage of a weak schedule, they're now better off without him? LOL.

That looks like your saying when T Mac is out his supporting cast is *horrible* so whats the difference when hes in ?

yes their schedule was easy when they got this little streak going but whos to say they still wouldnt win without T Mac or if they had another star player playing by yao as the names i mentioned Above whos to say they wouldnt be more successful ?

im only going by David berri's blog since he wants to take people from every team with better stats and put them on other teams in place of their superstars ...

[Griever24]

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Yeah...actually I apologize for being so snippy. It's hard to respond objectively to people when they can't even read what you write correctly and all they do is spew BS back at you.

And you see i never said one insult prior to this whole arguement .. yet This guy just keeps making attempts ...

I Apoligize as well .. I hope this Topic can carry on in a Good way

[xcomputerman]

But why bring his article out now on a Wade T Mac discussion ? a article that derails Kobe and Compliments T Mac ?

Now you're just throwing in random BS you've been reading around the "internets". The Rockets in the past have been downright *horrible* whenever T-Mac is out. You really want to make the argument that because Adelman finally figured out how to generate some offense without using McGrady and took advantage of a weak schedule, they're now better off without him? LOL.

That looks like your saying when T Mac is out his supporting cast is *horrible* so whats the difference when hes in ?

yes their schedule was easy when they got this little streak going but whos to say they still wouldnt win without T Mac or if they had another star player playing by yao as the names i mentioned Above whos to say they wouldnt be more successful ?

im only going by David berri's blog since he wants to take people from every team with better stats and put them on other teams in place of their superstars ...

Once again, I suggest reading what I said originally again. I made it clear that my point was not to say anyone player was better than the other. In fact, if you must know my personal opinion, I think Kobe is a better player than T-Mac. Are you happy now? I could not have made my point any more clearly. The point was that superstars by themselves cannot win titles -- it takes good teams to win. You are the one who is trying so hard to twist my words that you're not even reading them correctly. In my original post, I said that even though Kobe has not won in the playoffs since Shaq left, it would still be ridiculous to say such a thing as "Kobe is not a superstar", which is what some people are saying about Dwayne Wade in this thread.

But all you saw was: "Kobe has not won in the playoffs", and that triggered your irrational attempt to spring to the "defense" of your superstar who wasn't even under "attack" to begin with. THIS is why RealGM cannot have sensible debates. People just don't know how to respond to others objectively.

[Play_Smart!]

Blame the supporting cast is silly,

1, If you have 2 superstars on your payroll you are supposed to have a weak supporting cast and Houston's supporting crew ain't that bad.

2, If T-Mac kept his mouth shut and attacked the basket instead of jacking up ill-advised jumpers in the last 7 minutes in last years' game 7 vs. Utah when Utah was already in penalty at the 7:30 mark, he might have already passed 1st round.

3, TMac is mentally incapable of leading a team. He's best suited in a team with a leader like Shaq, Kidd. In another word, hes no leader although he thinks he is.

[Griever24]

My intentions were not to get you to say kobe is better than T-Mac either so dont say it like thats what i wanted you to say ..

It was the fact he says it like T Mac + Shaq = the exact same amount of success .. could be you never know but i was just saying i dont think so .. then you got all defensive and said i dont use my brain and i dont have Comprehension and how much blow must i be on or something to that extent .. which is what got me more Defensive than anything than all this Kobe T Mac stuff

these are basketball Forums your supposed to come strong and Hard but dont lure me into wanting to say smart comments myself .. if i offended you i in any i apoligize i just say try and share my opinion with everybody like anyone else on this forum

[xcomputerman]

My intentions were not to get you to say kobe is better than T-Mac either so dont say it like thats what i wanted you to say ..

It was the fact he says it like T Mac + Shaq = the exact same amount of success ..

Fair enough, now that you bring up Berri's point. He shows strong data to back it up -- what exactly is it that you disagree with there? He showed supporting data for every statement he made: Kobe has the edge over T-Mac as an individual scorer, but T-Mac has an edge as an all around player in terms of wins produced. The "wins produced" statistic may have a few criticisms, but it correlates quite strongly to actual wins (average differential in 06-07 of 2.5).

The argument people often make is that Kobe appears to have more "will to win", but I believe that is more of a surface psycho-analysis from most people: T-Mac wears his emotions on his sleeve and often isn't cautious about speaking his mind (to the chagrin of many), while Kobe tends to internalize everything, not talk to anyone and try to turn criticism into internal motivation. Whether either is a better leader is subjective too: T-Mac isn't much of a vocal leader, but neither is Kobe (probably the one thing he has been criticized for the most up until recently). It's still all speculation, and it's often easier to speculate than to actually look at facts. The point is, I'm not going to start losing respect for Wade just because he suffered an unfortunate injury and his coach traded away key role players for bad ones - lost Posey, lost Walker, added Ricky Davis and Smush Parker? - and now his team is the worst in the NBA. It's too hard, in today's NBA, to win without a good team around you. The superstar's burden is to try to carry his team to victory, but he can't do it alone.

I mean, if Robert Horry hadn't been drafted by the Rockets, eventually traded to the Lakers and then subsequently to the Spurs, would we today be calling him an overrated one-dimensional player instead of one of the greatest clutch shooters in history? Heck, a couple of years ago people were speculating whether he was hall of fame worthy. You see my point.

[ljp24]

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Be warned, I'm using your logic: Why couldn't Kobe do it in 03-04 with 4 hofs on his team?

He played the whole year with the possibility of jail for life.

[Induveca]

There is nothing more pathetic than a player fan. Unfortunately a large portion of Heat fans are nothing more than Wade fans. You can usually spot them by their usernames here.......Wade this, Flash that.

Same deal with Kobe fans. But at the end of the day, all I'm saying is Wade has been trash this year...........turnover machine who hasn't made his teammates better whatsoever.

Without Shaq, Wade his been exposed........much like Pippen was without MJ.

[xcomputerman]

all I'm saying is Wade has been trash this year...........turnover machine who hasn't made his teammates better whatsoever.

Without Shaq, Wade his been exposed........much like Pippen was without MJ.

Wade's turnovers are up this year, but he has always been a high turnover guy, as is the case for almost any player with a high usage rate. I'd attribute it more to having a much worse team around him than anything else. If his teammates aren't making shots, then naturally his assists will decrease and he's going to try to carry more of the load himself, hence more turnovers.

FWIW, Dwayne Wade currently has the 4th highest PER in the league among qualifying shooting guards, behind Ginobili, Bryant and Martin. The next two players are Iverson and McGrady.

[Induveca]

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Wade's turnovers are up this year, but he has always been a high turnover guy, as is the case for almost any player with a high usage rate. I'd attribute it more to having a much worse team around him than anything else. If his teammates aren't making shots, then naturally his assists will decrease and he's going to try to carry more of the load himself, hence more turnovers.

FWIW, Dwayne Wade currently has the 4th highest PER in the league among qualifying shooting guards, behind Ginobili, Bryant and Martin. The next two players are Iverson and McGrady.

FWIW, PER on a team that has lost 13 straight means nothing........

[shaqfan1]

There is nothing more pathetic than a player fan. Unfortunately a large portion of Heat fans are nothing more than Wade fans. You can usually spot them by their usernames here.......Wade this, Flash that.

Same deal with Kobe fans. But at the end of the day, all I'm saying is Wade has been trash this year...........turnover machine who hasn't made his teammates better whatsoever.

Without Shaq, Wade his been exposed........much like Pippen was without MJ.

You forgot to mention those Arenas fans. They like to put down Kobe, Wade, and Tmac because their favorite player hasn't made it to their level yet.

[realball]

Wade was injured last year, he's been somewhat injured this year too, and so has most of his team. He deserves a pass, considering he's the same player, when healthy, carried an old Miami team to a championship against all odds. Something T-Mac hasn't done.

[xcomputerman]

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FWIW, PER on a team that has lost 13 straight means nothing........

Hard to disagree with that. Winning is what matters ultimately. Just saying that this is just another case where a superstar is being blamed unfairly for his team's woes.