2018/19 ROY/Rookie Discussion Thread (Pt 2)

[King Ken]

Getting in better shape is part of it but he actually already is in really good shape. He just needs his body to mature. He’s still a kid. Once he gets to about 22-25 his body will mature which is when we’ll see that baby fat come off of him. He’ll also get stronger at that point.

You really think his body can improve like that? Other Eastern Europeans NBA players got this body type and played their whole careers with it. Just like I say for Harden, what if this is who he is? Harden will never be built like Bron

Harden doesn't need to be like Bron to be great, though. No player needs to be just like Bron to be great. There are different ways to greatness.

You mentioned in a previous post that he has different athletic feats that are special. Like what? What is it that Luka does athletically that's great or even very good for his position?
First step?
Speed?
Quickness?
Agility?
Acceleration?
Vertical?
Explosiveness?
2nd Jump?


I can say he has special balance but he is using that right now to the max of his capabilities. It's not something he isn't fully taking full advantage of like a 18 year old Bron or even 20 yo Harden.

I am all ears...

[twomangame]

He could be another walking triple double because he loves getting rebounds, he is a great passer and he can score like crazy. The stats will always be there with him. Now that Dallas has moved him to a primary ball handler, I see the good and I see the bad as well. After seeing it, I am more entitled to want them to bring in another PG and not just play a SG as the big PG.

I thought all of my top 5 prospects could be franchise players and a couple outside like Trae could be as well. But I don't think Luka, Ayton, or Bamba is generational. That's really just Zion, LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, and AD for me. Bagley is close. But that's about it. I haven't seen any reason to change my mind either. Generational for me means, will lead a team to the NBA Finals as the best player. No question about it and make it to multiple finals. Those players have impact beyond even the superstars and are the top 1-10 NBA players in history.

A franchise player, I can see that. He already is one or close to it. He is not close to superstardom and I personally question if he ever legit gets there. I think he will be a Kevin Love superstar where everyone is barking he's a superstar but he really isn't.

You are talking about generational players, top 1-10 NBA all-time players, multiple finals appearances and you low-key insert Zion and Bagley in that conversation. The former hasn't even played an NBA minute, the latter hasn't even shown an effective way to create his own shot.

[Mr B]

Oden was also considered as some 'freak of nature', 'anomaly' ' & where is he now?

Ayton, Trae & Baigley have to prove they are better than Doncic, so far they are far behind him.

Injuries. Luka can break his kneecap and a couple seasons later tear his ACL/MCL. Does that mean he wasn't a great prospect? No, it just means he had injuries.

Same with D. Rose, G. Hill, P. Hardaway, etc.

The exact same could happen to Bagley and Trae. Both could blowout both their knees and the back tomorrow. Obviously that would change everything but it would for any player.

[Archx]

Getting in better shape is part of it but he actually already is in really good shape. He just needs his body to mature. He’s still a kid. Once he gets to about 22-25 his body will mature which is when we’ll see that baby fat come off of him. He’ll also get stronger at that point.

You really think his body can improve like that? Other Eastern Europeans NBA players got this body type and played their whole careers with it. Just like I say for Harden, what if this is who he is? Harden will never be built like Bron

Luka is not from eastern europe maybe that's why you are confused

And Harden is built like a tank how do you not see it.

[AdagioPace]

You really think his body can improve like that? Other Eastern Europeans NBA players got this body type and played their whole careers with it. Just like I say for Harden, what if this is who he is? Harden will never be built like Bron

Harden doesn't need to be like Bron to be great, though. No player needs to be just like Bron to be great. There are different ways to greatness.

You mentioned in a previous post that he has different athletic feats that are special. Like what? What is it that Luka does athletically that's great or even very good for his position?
First step?
Speed?
Quickness?
Agility?
Acceleration?
Vertical?
Explosiveness?
2nd Jump?


I can say he has special balance but he is using that right now to the max of his capabilities. It's not something he isn't fully taking full advantage of like a 18 year old Bron or even 20 yo Harden.

I am all ears...

Read on Twitter

[Mr B]

Easy, they can impact winning a lot more when they reach their ceilings. That's why.

Bagley doesn't have one athletic limitation. Guys like that are usually Giannis, Westbrook or MJ. Bagley doesn't have their length both they didn't have his motor.

Ayton is a freak of nature and the game comes so easy to him. He has two way potential and he has the body of an Egyptian god. It's very easy to see those guys being in a lot of Finals one day being the best players in the NBA.

Thing is, those two are raw. They haven't even chipped their potential. They just playing off gas. Not using their mind or experience which both have a high ceiling in. They are physically RARE in a league based on anomalies.

When was the last time a big with no wing capability, led his team to a championship. No wait to the finals. No wait to the conference finals I mean.

The NBA is dominated by wings and guards right now. Partly cause of the rule changes also partly cause of the emphasis on the three ball.

Ayton and Bagely will be great players but you're just being hyperbolic man.

Bagley has potential to have perimeter capabilities first of all.

Secondly, this is a superstar driven league. The last superstar center in his prime was Dwight Howard who beat a prime Big 3 Celtics and LeBron's best squad to get to the NBA Finals. We haven't had that since though Embiid is becoming a superstar. Also, Dirk won a title and when was the last time a team didn't have at least an All Star level big that has won a title?

Let's not act like if we didn't have Shaq in the NBA right now, that he wouldn't be winning a title. That's BS. Superstars win titles.

The NBA is dominated right now by great players. Currently, we have them in every position. Just that the majority of superstars right now happen to be wings. Simple as that.

You just want to be right, just because my opinion differs doesn't make me wrong especially if we are predicting the future if everyone is healthy of course.

You do realize the Mavs are not a complete team yet right? Luka is 19 and over the next couple of years the Mavs will have tons of cap space to either sign at least two max players or make trades that will greatly improve the team. Getting a quality big is on that list. Sinus getting a scoring wing (or two).

[King Ken]

Fast forward to 5:02

https://youtu.be/7NO1mlbavAk

He's a chubby kid with a lot of baby fat, and look how effortlessly he's able to switch gears in the open court.... that was a pretty explosive dunk and he made it look easy. You're trying to tell us he's not athletic? Look, he isn't Giannis athletically, but he also isn't Kevin Huerter. He's shown some explosive ability in the open court, and he has already put a few dudes on posters. He's not a freak athletically like LeBron, but he's pretty athletic.

To be able to get down the court that fast with the ball in your hands and throw it down like that does not take SKILL, it takes ATHLETIC ability.

Kevin is way faster than Luka. It's not even close either. Kevin is one of our fastest players, Luka would be one of our slowest with Dedmon. Plumlee is faster.

He does have some pop in the air, especially when he has momentum. I agree with that part.

He looked slow in the clip you showed. I can literally put him in a race with Noah coast to coast and I think Noah would win. @58 secs

Watch on YouTube

Huerter is a pretty fast player, I agree. He is also a very decent leaper. His numbers in the draft combine are proof of both of those points.

But Plumlee and Noah? Please. The only thing you'll achieve with that is to lower your credibility. Look, my Pacers were the ones who drafted Miles Plumlee back in 12-13. I know all about his really good lane agility and three quarter sprint combine numbers. I was defending him when a lot of people were calling him a bust. He has turned out to be exactly the player I thought he was. A very serviceable back-up big that's gonna stick in the league for a good while.

But no, he isn't faster than Luka with the ball in his hands. Noah isn't faster than Luka with the ball in his hands either. You pointed to that clip at the 58 second mark but Noah looks significantly slower than Luka looked in the clip that King- posted. I don't know why you can't see it but this particular point isn't even close.

Plumlee is athletic but his lack of Basketball skill to an extreme degree makes him useless on the court as an athlete. His value is mainly screen setting, boxing out, and knowing where to be on defense which isn't as important anymore with the modern NBA as it was 5 years ago.

Plumlee is clearly a better athlete, he just isn't a functional athlete which matters most in the NBA.

Noah in his prime was more athletic as well. Functionally as well.

Noah is skilled for a center, Luka is skilled for anyone who ever played this game. Of course Luka will be generally faster with the ball. He has perimeter skills. Noah doesn't. That's more about skill and less about athletic ability though.

Doncic barely finished faster and had 10 ft start on him. 7:19 Noah- finished at 7:15. Doncic- 7:37 and finished at 7:33. 4 seconds for each and Noah had more ground to cover. What are you watching?

Noah is a long strider. Of course he will look slower but cover more ground while Luka is more evenly built. He doesn't cover has much ground on his strides. Both looked slow. They had that in common and this was one of Luka's better fast breaks speed wise mainly because no one really had an angle on him.

[Texas Chuck]

I hope when my team makes a bad trade instead of taking the generational talent that I don't come on here posting a bunch of nonsense. I'm literally embarrassed for the king here.

[King Ken]

Harden doesn't need to be like Bron to be great, though. No player needs to be just like Bron to be great. There are different ways to greatness.

You mentioned in a previous post that he has different athletic feats that are special. Like what? What is it that Luka does athletically that's great or even very good for his position?
First step?
Speed?
Quickness?
Agility?
Acceleration?
Vertical?
Explosiveness?
2nd Jump?


I can say he has special balance but he is using that right now to the max of his capabilities. It's not something he isn't fully taking full advantage of like a 18 year old Bron or even 20 yo Harden.

I am all ears...

Read on Twitter

Balance. We already know he has elite balance. You are going to need more than that to be an elite NBA player. Just about most NBA players got some special athletic qualities. He needs a package of it to be a superstar or he could have the elite positional height which he doesn't have.

[Mr B]

Yes. He will be more consistent but he is not getting that much better from here. I watch every game. He is so far ahead of players on the developed element but not where close on the stuff that you are born with.

He is the anti Giannis. Giannis was the worst rookie I've seen his year outside of Dennis Schroder who barely played anyway. Now Giannis is a top 3-5 player.

Where is Luka going to get much better at? You guys love saying this but I don't see it. I always saw a great player in terms of his floor and when I compare him to Pistol who might have been the most polished Amercian to ever enter the NBA as an American, that's me seeing him in ELITE regard. But I don't see this great potential. I don't see a great fit and he has a **** personality as well like a white Boogie Cousins. You guys are making excuses up for him.

I’m a Mavs fan and I can see where you’re coming from. It’s hard to improve on 35/12/10. That doesn’t mean he’s at his ceiling though. Like you said, he will get more consistent. He will get better at the free throw line, his post game will get better, and yes even his shot will get better. I’m not saying or expecting him to improve to average 65/20/20 but I expect his ceiling will be close to averaging a triple/double. He may even have a couple of seasons where he averages a triple/double.

As for Bagley, I also think he will be a good player if he has the right coaching and work ethic. I know he’s known for his motor so I don’t think work ethic will be problem for him. Bagley is still really young. He has time but if he works at it his can improve his shot and his post game. If he averages 25/10 or even 20/10, those are really good numbers. He actually is a perfect fit next to Fox and should be able to play off of each other really well.

The difference is that Luka appears to be a generational talent and no one sees that in Bagley. Not yet anyways. He could be the next Steph Curry, Dirk, or James Harden where he’s a player that works on his game and blows up in his second or third year. Or he could be a caliber of player as Elton Brand who was a very good player for a lot of years.

He could be another walking triple double because he loves getting rebounds, he is a great passer and he can score like crazy. The stats will always be there with him. Now that Dallas has moved him to a primary ball handler, I see the good and I see the bad as well. After seeing it, I am more entitled to want them to bring in another PG and not just play a SG as the big PG.

I thought all of my top 5 prospects could be franchise players and a couple outside like Trae could be as well. But I don't think Luka, Ayton, or Bamba is generational. That's really just Zion, LeBron, Duncan, Shaq, and AD for me. Bagley is close. But that's about it. I haven't seen any reason to change my mind either. Generational for me means, will lead a team to the NBA Finals as the best player. No question about it and make it to multiple finals. Those players have impact beyond even the superstars and are the top 1-10 NBA players in history.

A franchise player, I can see that. He already is one or close to it. He is not close to superstardom and I personally question if he ever legit gets there. I think he will be a Kevin Love superstar where everyone is barking he's a superstar but he really isn't.

You think Zion is that level even though he hasn’t played in the NBA yet?

As for Luka being a superstar, you can have your opinion. That doesn’t change the fact though that you are in the extreme minority with that opinion. 99% of the rest of basketball world believes that Luka will be a superstar and many of those believe he already is. You don’t have to like it or agree with it but it’s a fact.

[King Ken]

I hope when my team makes a bad trade instead of taking the generational talent that I don't come on here posting a bunch of nonsense. I'm literally embarrassed for the king here.

You can't even quote a post stating your opinion but you attack me? Shameful

This is why I have the uttermost respect Nuntius and Mavs fans like Mr. B. Regardless of if we agree or not. We at least understand, this is a conversation. Not an poster assault.

[Dundalis]

Sorry but this athletic comparison is all wasted breath. Luka's ability to hesitate and change directions has ALREADY bested some of the best defenders in the NBA. It already works. That's where his point of difference lies. He'll add moves and significantly refine his footwork as he gets more pre-seasons under his belt. That is if you believe Steph Curry's trainer over the words of a Luka obsessed Hawks fan with a blatant axe to grind.

[Captain_Obvious]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

It is true that Luka was playing Basketball from a young age at a top club and thus had to develop his skills at a rapid rate to get into that team. So I think the only valid point people can make is that other draft members started a) at a later age and/or b) on a team with lower expectations/professionalism. I absolutely think that at least b) is true for most of them.

What surprises me with Luka is the level of skill on most the moves he performs. He has shown the complete repertoire and he even has his go to moves well developed. I don't know where he goes from here. Is it studying the playbooks? Mastering more moves? Coming up with completely new moves? To me he is a genius to be so well rounded at this point. He is one of those guys that will add a dimension to basketball like all the greats did before.

[Mr B]

Getting in better shape is part of it but he actually already is in really good shape. He just needs his body to mature. He’s still a kid. Once he gets to about 22-25 his body will mature which is when we’ll see that baby fat come off of him. He’ll also get stronger at that point.

You really think his body can improve like that? Other Eastern Europeans NBA players got this body type and played their whole careers with it. Just like I say for Harden, what if this is who he is? Harden will never be built like Bron

Absolutely, even if he as that typical Euro build that doesn’t mean he won’t get stronger and shed body fat. Physics and the laws of nature say that as he gets older he will get stronger. It happens to everyone. I thought everyone knew that.

[Dundalis]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

It is true that Luka was playing Basketball from a young age at a top club and thus had to develop his skills at a rapid rate to get into that team. So I think the only valid point people can make is that other draft members started a) at a later age and/or b) on a team with lower expectations/professionalism. I absolutely think that at least b) is true for most of them.

What surprises me with Luka is the level of skill on most the moves he performs. He has shown the complete repertoire and he even has his go to moves well developed. I don't know where he goes from here. Is it studying the playbooks? Mastering more moves? Coming up with completely new moves? To me he is a genius to be so well rounded at this point. He is one of those guys that will add a dimension to basketball like all the greats did before.

Read the article on Luka's workout with Steph Curry for an idea of what the kid can improve on in terms of fundamentals. The answer is plenty.

[King Ken]

You think Zion is that level even though he hasn’t played in the NBA yet?

As for Luka being a superstar, you can have your opinion. That doesn’t change the fact though that you are in the extreme minority with that opinion. 99% of the rest of basketball world believes that Luka will be a superstar and many of those believe he already is. You don’t have to like it or agree with it but it’s a fact.

I do. I think he is the best athlete I've ever seen in Basketball. Functional. No real flaws. Not just elite but generational explosiveness.

I have my questions, positional fit, shooting, conditioning but I do feel these will be a mark he can overcome with development. Plus, I think he can play anywhere and any system. You don't have to play Zion ball or change what you are doing for Zion. He just fits, at least offensively. Defensively, that's a different story but he will be effective.

I am fine being an minority. I've been in that minority in the past. We all see the game how we see the game. I feel as if I am right, you may and should feel the same. I will not disrespect you for your take or opinion and I have no interest in changing your opinion. This is a message board for conversations. As long as I respect you and you respect me, we are cool regardless if we agree to disagree.

I don't believe for one minute that 99% of the Basketball world thinks he is a superstar. We can ask every player and most will laugh their ass off or scoff at the question. They will say he is a great rookie but you are pushing it with the superstar talk. There is a massive difference between franchise player and superstar and it damn sure ain't no fact.

[Texas Chuck]

I hope when my team makes a bad trade instead of taking the generational talent that I don't come on here posting a bunch of nonsense. I'm literally embarrassed for the king here.

You can't even quote a post stating your opinion but you attack me? Shameful

This is why I have the uttermost respect Nuntius and Mavs fans like Mr. B. Regardless of if we agree or not. We at least understand, this is a conversation. Not an poster assault.

I'd literally have to quote like a dozen posts of yours to point out the clear nonsense. I'm not attacking you, I'm saying you are posting things you know are ridiculous. Like a 19 year old peaking. Like you know enough about Luka's personality to attack him, like playing 3 random video clips and drawing wide-ranging conclusions, like saying Bagley has a higher ceiling because athleticism is apparantly the only thing that matters iyo, like.....

We get it. You need him not to be good. It's transparent and I cringe reading your posts.

[Mr B]

He gets along well with all of his teammates. He’s even really close to Dennis, and gets along extremely well with Deandre. Does he hate losing? Of course he does, remember he’s coming off of a league championship in the Euro League, and was League MVP and Final Four MVP. Luka is a winner so all the losing is hard on him. So I’d expect him to look bummed when they’re losing. Over the next couple of seasons though the Mavs will have to cap space to add 2-3 max players and fill out the rest of their roster. Luka should be able to attract other stars to Dallas. They will look much different in 3 years than they look right now.

These are excuses to me. Honestly, he sulks. He does child like stuff like this. The only reason why you guys are defending him is because you want him to succeed above all else even when he does things completely wrong like his behavior.

There is levels to getting along. They deal with him. That's how they get along. Boogie's teammates all said they get along with him. No one said he was Jimmy Butler in SAC.

Ya'll love this, he was a winner before the NBA excuse. It wouldn't be okay for other players honestly. Melo was a winner at Cuse and with the USA team. But we all seem to mention his behavior. I see a trend in his fans I do not like at all. I can see them blaming the players for all of his career for his shortcomings as well. This will be a tragic case. I see it coming.

I think it’s funny that you have accused other people of it trying to tear down other players in order to prop up Luka. It you’re doing the same thing. You’re trying to downplay the obviously with Luka in order to make Bagley a d Ayton look better. You don’t have to like Luka, and you can have your opinion but like I said, you’re in the extreme minority with that opinion.

[Mr B]

The fact that someone says he ripped his jersey because he’s being an a.hole tells me they don’t watch all of his games. He’s not only frustrated with his own game but he’s also upset that he doesn’t get nearly as many calls as he should (and as he will get in the future). He’s getting the rookie treatment from the refs this season and he’s frustrated.

He gets more calls than any other rookie by a mile. Have you watched JJJ with refs? Trae? Ayton? SGA? Sexton? Rookies don't get calls like that and never will. Luka actually gets more of them than the others.

Again, you clear do not watch Mavs games like you claim to. You probably it just watch the highlights. He’s been getting hammered all season with not nearly the amount of calls he should get.

[King Ken]

I don't understand how some people still say Baigley & Ayton have the same or even higher ceiling than Doncic, until they prove that it won't be true... But so far Luka is far ahead of anyone in his draft class... I know this is only their first year & anything can happen in future.

It is true that Luka was playing Basketball from a young age at a top club and thus had to develop his skills at a rapid rate to get into that team. So I think the only valid point people can make is that other draft members started a) at a later age and/or b) on a team with lower expectations/professionalism. I absolutely think that at least b) is true for most of them.

What surprises me with Luka is the level of skill on most the moves he performs. He has shown the complete repertoire and he even has his go to moves well developed. I don't know where he goes from here. Is it studying the playbooks? Mastering more moves? Coming up with completely new moves? To me he is a genius to be so well rounded at this point. He is one of those guys that will add a dimension to basketball like all the greats did before.

It should go without saying, the only person we have record of who can learn a skill so quickly and use it effectively in a high intense environment is Pete Maravich. It's an ability you have to be born with. You can't just be taught that.