NBA MVP Discussion 20/21 (Fresh poll ➥ Vote)

[Roy The Natural]

WS, BPM, and PER are just counting stat amalgamations. Like I said, Jokic has an advantage in counting stats. Counting stats amalgamations are going to favor him. Impact stats and in/off tend to be about the same. There is no "only" angle. Jokic is great. But counting stats are counting stats. His team is fine with him off the floor. That has to count. Despite his superior cast he hasn't gotten his team to a better record, that has to count. He has a slight effiency advantage bit scores a slight bit less. I'd call the coring about even. Assists are close enough.

If Dame does not have advantage in scoring or assist over Jokic, what else value can he provide? Joker is super clutch as well, and even more coming playoff time. Also Jokic does not have a "superior" supporting cast. CJ was a lot better than Murry, actually comparable to Dame, this year before getting injured. Murry has not been the bubble version and disappointingly scored 10 points or less 6 times this year. Trent, Melo, and Kanter are better than 3-5 guys on Denver. Losing Grant hurts Denver badly. You can argue Dame over Curry, Luka, and even LeBron so far, but Jokic is on a different level.

It doent jive with the numbers tho. Denver is somehow a very decent team when jokic sits or isnt playing while the Blazers are butt awful without Dame. There's nothing that suggests that Denver has the worse supporting cast and everything that shows the exact opposite

It's very difficult to jive with the whole 'Jokic is carrying Denver' thing when Denver has a +2.5 rating with him on the bench with a decent sample size now

Yup, there's the rub. Remove Jokic from the Nuggets and their net rating suggest that they'd still be somewhere around a .500 team. Remove Lillard from the Blazers and their net rating suggests they're the Houston Rockets. Now that's obviously not perfect. But the reality is we are looking at entirely different tiers of supporting casts. If Nurkic and CJ had been healthy this whole time you could make more arguments that the peripherals were mistaken. However, that's not the case. Quite simply everything points to Denver's supporting cast more or less being VERY GOOD while Portland's current supporting cast looks like a high lottery team without Lillard. Meanwhile, both teams have the same actual record currently.

[mademan]

If Dame does not have advantage in scoring or assist over Jokic, what else value can he provide? Joker is super clutch as well, and even more coming playoff time. Also Jokic does not have a "superior" supporting cast. CJ was a lot better than Murry, actually comparable to Dame, this year before getting injured. Murry has not been the bubble version and disappointingly scored 10 points or less 6 times this year. Trent, Melo, and Kanter are better than 3-5 guys on Denver. Losing Grant hurts Denver badly. You can argue Dame over Curry, Luka, and even LeBron so far, but Jokic is on a different level.

It doent jive with the numbers tho. Denver is somehow a very decent team when jokic sits or isnt playing while the Blazers are butt awful without Dame. There's nothing that suggests that Denver has the worse supporting cast and everything that shows the exact opposite

It's very difficult to jive with the whole 'Jokic is carrying Denver' thing when Denver has a +2.5 rating with him on the bench with a decent sample size now

It may also mean the difference between Jokic and his sub is smaller than Dame and his in POR. Also might be that Joker facilitate the games in better flow rather than dominating the ball, so the team has better continuity when he subs out.

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

[KqWIN]

Denver have a solid and deep team.

If Jokic was an MVP, they wouldn't have the 8th best record in the league.

Right now it's LeBron by a clear margin.

LAL has the same winning percentage without AD as DEN this season. So I guess the clear margin for LeBron comes from having a better teammate.

The Lakers are 10-2 when Davis is OUT but Dennis and LeBron are in the lineup....LeBron only needed another ball handler who can score and pass to stay in the top in the standing

They also played a ton of cupcakes in these Dennis+LeBron without AD lineups. Either way, a "better player" argument is so much more convincing than a "better record" argument. LeBron is having a really good year, especially on defense. I don't think it's that crazy to give it to him on merit, but to say that he head and shoulders above someone like Jokic because of record is really weak to me. At that point you're just force feeding LeBron the MVP no matter what.

[Roy The Natural]

It doent jive with the numbers tho. Denver is somehow a very decent team when jokic sits or isnt playing while the Blazers are butt awful without Dame. There's nothing that suggests that Denver has the worse supporting cast and everything that shows the exact opposite

It's very difficult to jive with the whole 'Jokic is carrying Denver' thing when Denver has a +2.5 rating with him on the bench with a decent sample size now

It may also mean the difference between Jokic and his sub is smaller than Dame and his in POR. Also might be that Joker facilitate the games in better flow rather than dominating the ball, so the team has better continuity when he subs out.

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

Lillard is now providing a net rating boost of +8.7 for the Blazers while Jokic is providing a boost of +2.5.

[dygaction]

Denver have a solid and deep team.

If Jokic was an MVP, they wouldn't have the 8th best record in the league.

Right now it's LeBron by a clear margin.

LAL has the same winning percentage without AD as DEN this season. So I guess the clear margin for LeBron comes from having a better teammate.

The Lakers are 10-2 when Davis is OUT but Dennis and LeBron are in the lineup....LeBron only needed another ball handler who can score and pass to stay in the top in the standing

Totally, that's the proof - always had the feeling that AD was hurting the team. Also, the Lakers are 17-11 when LeBron grabs less than 10 rebounds, but are 10-1 when he grabs 10 or more rebounds. LeBron only needed to grab more boards to stay in the top in the standing .

[dygaction]

It doent jive with the numbers tho. Denver is somehow a very decent team when jokic sits or isnt playing while the Blazers are butt awful without Dame. There's nothing that suggests that Denver has the worse supporting cast and everything that shows the exact opposite

It's very difficult to jive with the whole 'Jokic is carrying Denver' thing when Denver has a +2.5 rating with him on the bench with a decent sample size now

It may also mean the difference between Jokic and his sub is smaller than Dame and his in POR. Also might be that Joker facilitate the games in better flow rather than dominating the ball, so the team has better continuity when he subs out.

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

Yep. That's when you have a center who is more than capable of doing PG work, and when he is out, there is actually a PG on the floor.

[Roy The Natural]

It may also mean the difference between Jokic and his sub is smaller than Dame and his in POR. Also might be that Joker facilitate the games in better flow rather than dominating the ball, so the team has better continuity when he subs out.

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

Yep. That's when you have a center who is more than capable of doing PG work, and when he is out, there is actually a PG on the floor.

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

[dygaction]

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

Yep. That's when you have a center who is more than capable of doing PG work, and when he is out, there is actually a PG on the floor.

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

Lol, totally fine with me if you believe that. I am not even a Denver fan. Dame is a Curry lite, and I don't think anyone taking Curry over Joker now.

[Roy The Natural]

Yep. That's when you have a center who is more than capable of doing PG work, and when he is out, there is actually a PG on the floor.

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

Lol, totally fine with me if you believe that.

That's what you just said. I'm just removing the unnecessarily positive spin.

It's irrelevant anyways. Denvers and Portlands on/off on offense with Lillard/Jokic are pretty much indentical. So for all the counting stats, Denver and Portlands offense are basically the same level of bad without Jokic/Lillard and the same level of good with each.

The reason that Jokic has such a smaller impact according to net rating is because Portland's defense is bad, and a little worse when Lillard's on the floor. Meanwhile Denvers defense is really good when Jokic isn't on the floor, and horrible when he's on the floor.

[The Master]

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

Blazers are statistically much worse team than Nuggets (-1.19 SRS v. 5.00 SRS), but Lillard is clutch God this season (over 80%TS) and thanks to that Portland is killing it in close games (16-6), while Jokic is okay in clutch (57TS%), but Nuggets are subpar (8-9) in those endings.

On the one hand, Blazers' and Lillard's level in clutch is unsustainable, on the other hand - right now it looks like Lillard actually does make a better carry job this season record-wise. Up to this moment, Blazers are stats wise below 0.500-level team considering net rating or SRS, with 23-16 thanks to Lillard's level in clutch. It's very rare to see this type of overachievement thanks to one player's performance in clutch moments. Not to mention how average his supporting cast has been.

[Roy The Natural]

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

Blazers are statistically much worse team than Nuggets (-1.19 SRS v. 5.00 SRS), but Lillard is clutch God this season (over 80%TS) and thanks to that Portland is killing it in close games (16-6), while Jokic is okay in clutch (57TS%), but Nuggets are subpar (8-9) in those endings.

On the one hand, Blazers' and Lillard's level in clutch is unsustainable, on the other hand - right now it looks like Lillard actually does make a better carry job this season record-wise. Up to this moment, Blazers are stats wise below 0.500-level team considering net rating or SRS, with 23-16 thanks to Lillard's level in clutch. It's very rare to see this type of overachievement thanks to one player's performance in clutch moments. Not to mention how average his supporting cast has been.

Sure, some of that's true. However, the Nuggets and Blazers are very similar teams when Lillard/Jokic are on the floor. Team's both hover around an offensive Rtg of 120-121 when Lillard/Jokic are on the floor and have bad defense. Denver 115 Drtg, Portland a 118 DRtg. Both offenses plummet when Jokic/Lillard leave the floor to right around 108.

The main difference between the 2 teams? Portland's defense drops a little bit when Lillard's on the floor while Denver's absolutely craters from really good to Portland levels when Jokic is on the floor. It's interesting to see these on/offs because they indicate that despite Jokic's uniqueness and greatness he really doesn't provide anymore offensive boost to his team than Lillard does to his.

[SOdisciple]

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

Blazers are statistically much worse team than Nuggets (-1.19 SRS v. 5.00 SRS), but Lillard is clutch God this season (over 80%TS) and thanks to that Portland is killing it in close games (16-6), while Jokic is okay in clutch (57TS%), but Nuggets are subpar (8-9) in those endings.

On the one hand, Blazers' and Lillard's level in clutch is unsustainable, on the other hand - right now it looks like Lillard actually does make a better carry job this season record-wise. Up to this moment, Blazers are stats wise below 0.500-level team considering net rating or SRS, with 23-16 thanks to Lillard's level in clutch. It's very rare to see this type of overachievement thanks to one player's performance in clutch moments. Not to mention how average his supporting cast has been.

So basically, sounds like an MVP to me?

[Homer38]

This is the best MVP race since 2006...Not a clear front runner for the MVP right now and several players still have a chance to win it

[The Master]

The main difference between the 2 teams? Portland's defense drops a little bit when Lillard's on the floor while Denver's absolutely craters from really good to Portland levels when Jokic is on the floor. It's interesting to see these on/offs because they indicate that despite Jokic's uniqueness and greatness he really doesn't provide anymore offensive boost to his team than Lillard does to his.

To some point I wouldn't overreact with those on/off analysis, but in general, yeah, Jokic isn't as good as his boxscore numbers would suggest (although he's still borderline MVP candidate to say the least), because he is below average defender for his position, and Nuggets primary lineups are totally unbalanced and too much offense-oriented (and he's one of reasons behind this fact). Nuggets are good without Jokic on a floor, because they've mostly been past 3 years (Nuggets without Jokic are in average +0.7 in this span), even with that many injuries they still have many ballhandlers in their roster capable of running offense of 2nd units, and some good defensive players on a bench.

That being said, this analysis doesn't mean Jokic isn't amazing this year, because he carries those unbalanced lineups a lot (considering how many games other starters have missed), and the fact that they've been good without Jokic on a floor doesn't mean this roster in general is good this season, because how a team plays without its leader isn't always a representation of how good its roster is. For example, Sixers this season are -2.0 without Embiid, but it's hard to argue that Jojo's supporting cast is worse than this of Jokic considering how great Simmons and Harris have been this year.

Blazers, on the other hand, are statistically much worse team than Nuggets (and on/off stats you're analyzing are showing that as well), but have the same record because Lillard is God-level clutch performer this season (67points/100 possessions on over 80TS% ).

[BelgradeNugget]

In other words... Jokic has less of an impact on his team than Lillard.

Blazers are statistically much worse team than Nuggets (-1.19 SRS v. 5.00 SRS), but Lillard is clutch God this season (over 80%TS) and thanks to that Portland is killing it in close games (16-6), while Jokic is okay in clutch (57TS%), but Nuggets are subpar (8-9) in those endings.

On the one hand, Blazers' and Lillard's level in clutch is unsustainable, on the other hand - right now it looks like Lillard actually does make a better carry job this season record-wise. Up to this moment, Blazers are stats wise below 0.500-level team considering net rating or SRS, with 23-16 thanks to Lillard's level in clutch. It's very rare to see this type of overachievement thanks to one player's performance in clutch moments. Not to mention how average his supporting cast has been.

Sure, some of that's true. However, the Nuggets and Blazers are very similar teams when Lillard/Jokic are on the floor. Team's both hover around an offensive Rtg of 120-121 when Lillard/Jokic are on the floor and have bad defense. Denver 115 Drtg, Portland a 118 DRtg. Both offenses plummet when Jokic/Lillard leave the floor to right around 108.

The main difference between the 2 teams? Portland's defense drops a little bit when Lillard's on the floor while Denver's absolutely craters from really good to Portland levels when Jokic is on the floor. It's interesting to see these on/offs because they indicate that despite Jokic's uniqueness and greatness he really doesn't provide anymore offensive boost to his team than Lillard does to his.

There are different stats that we could compare and different conclusions we can make. So let's see.
1. Nuggets and Blazers have similar OFFRTG 116.4 to 116 (Nuggets 5th Blazers 6th)
2. Nuggets are 15th in DEFRTG right now 111.4, Blazers are 29th with 116.4. So to say both teams are bad at defense is as accurate as saying Nuggets have as good defense as 2nd in DEFRTG 76ers
3. Jokic's DEFRTG 112.8 which is 1 point worst then his teams while Dame's DEFRTG is as terrible as his team 116.8. With Jokic out Nuggets are a little bit better on defense by this stat, whit Dame out Blazers are still terible, so are we going to conclude they are the same. No Jokic is much better. Some stats point Jokic as being great defender, some as good, some as not good. Every defensive stat points to Dame being terrible defender.
4. One more question about stats. Embiid is great rim protector allowing 53% at the rim. Jokic is terrible at 64.2%. Still Embiid is allowing 4.9 DFGM at the rim while Jokic is alowing 4.4 DFGM playing more minutes than Embiid. Explanation please. Which stat is more important DFG% or DFGM?
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=FGM_LT_06&dir=1

What I want to say is you can't look at just one stat and make a conclusion. And I don't care about SRS, Blazers have as good record as the Nuggets so I think that Dame definitely overleaped LeBron in MVP race and is closing on Janis, Harden, Jokic and Embiid.

[dygaction]

It may also mean the difference between Jokic and his sub is smaller than Dame and his in POR. Also might be that Joker facilitate the games in better flow rather than dominating the ball, so the team has better continuity when he subs out.

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

Lillard is now providing a net rating boost of +8.7 for the Blazers while Jokic is providing a boost of +2.5.

There are so many adv stats and this likely to be the only one favors Lillard. Let's look at really on a game to game basis.

Spoiler:

Joker Dame
1 W (+30) 34 W (+25) 33
2 W (+38) 32 W (+26) 26
3 W (+15) 27 W (+11) 22
4 W (+12) 24 W (+19) 20
5 W (+13) 20 W (+6) 18
6 W (+31) 18 W (+11) 17
7 W (+27) 16 W (+2) 14
8 W (+17) 16 W (+18) 12
9 W (+11) 14 W (+3) 11
10 W (+7) 13 W (+9) 10
11 W (+17) 13 W (+2) 9
12 W (+18) 12 W (+1) 9
13 W (+6) 12 W (+6) 9
14 W (+10) 10 W (+1) 9
15 W (+25) 8 W (+2) 6
16 W (+8) 8 W (+4) 6
____________________________________________
17 L (-4) 6 L (-3) 5
18 L (-2) 5 L (-7) 4
19 W (+2) 5 W (+12) 3
20 L (-2) 5 W (+3) 2
21 L (-5) 2 L (-3) 1
22 L (-13) 2 L (-3) 0
23 L (-10) 1 W (+1) 0
24 L (-3) 1 L (-2) -2
25 W (+5) 0 L (-21) -3
26 L (-13) -2 W (+4) -3
27 L (-2) -2 L (-24) -6
28 W (+10) -3 L (-11) -6
29 W (+1) -3 L (-6) -6
30 L (-7) -6 W (+4) -8
31 L (-8) -7 W (+8) -10
32 L (-21) -8 L (-15) -10
33 L (-10) -9 L (-9) -10
34 W (+15) -9 L (-5) -15
35 W (+4) -10 L (-23) -20
36 L (-6) -11 L (-20) -21
37 L (-13) -12 L (-32) -29
38 W (+4) -13 L (-28) -32
39 L (-13) -20 W(+16) DNP

As you can see, both of the teams depend strongly on their performances. Joker played all 39 games. Dame missed one game in which POR won by 16.
Overall, when Joker's in game +/- are equal or greater than 8, his team win all 16 games. Similarly, when Dame's +/- are equal or greater than 6, his team win all 16 games. In those games, Joker's average +/- is +17.3, vs. Dame's 14.4, indicating Joker helped slightly more in team winning.
For the rest of the games, they have the same record, Joker's average is -3.8, Dames is -7.5, indicating Joker was less of a liability.
Just focusing on all the lost games, Joker's average is -3.4, and Dame is -9.9, meaning Dame sucked bigger, but Joker's team could not climb up a much shallower hole.

[Duke4life831]

MVP debates on here can get so weird. People are now talking about LeBron's record without AD, but with Schroeder. What are we doing? Haha. This thread is like the Inception of MVP threads. How many levels deep do you have to go to make a case for a player over another player?

People are trying to come up with whatever random stats and narratives they can come up with on why their guy should win MVP. While in reality 99% of the time it is a pretty simple way to see who wins MVP.

Counting stats and team record.

That is pretty much it. Jokic like Giannis the previous 2 years, has a massive gap between himself and everyone else when it come to counting stats (raw stats and the basic "advanced stats"). If the Nuggets can climb up to a top 3 seed in the West (usually the cutoff for MVP talk), Jokic is most likely going to win. If that doesnt happen and Embiid returns pretty soon and continues his form and the 6ers hold onto a top 3 seed, Embiid most likely will win. Then if that doesnt happen, you just keep going down the line.

[Roy The Natural]

Blazers are statistically much worse team than Nuggets (-1.19 SRS v. 5.00 SRS), but Lillard is clutch God this season (over 80%TS) and thanks to that Portland is killing it in close games (16-6), while Jokic is okay in clutch (57TS%), but Nuggets are subpar (8-9) in those endings.

On the one hand, Blazers' and Lillard's level in clutch is unsustainable, on the other hand - right now it looks like Lillard actually does make a better carry job this season record-wise. Up to this moment, Blazers are stats wise below 0.500-level team considering net rating or SRS, with 23-16 thanks to Lillard's level in clutch. It's very rare to see this type of overachievement thanks to one player's performance in clutch moments. Not to mention how average his supporting cast has been.

Sure, some of that's true. However, the Nuggets and Blazers are very similar teams when Lillard/Jokic are on the floor. Team's both hover around an offensive Rtg of 120-121 when Lillard/Jokic are on the floor and have bad defense. Denver 115 Drtg, Portland a 118 DRtg. Both offenses plummet when Jokic/Lillard leave the floor to right around 108.

The main difference between the 2 teams? Portland's defense drops a little bit when Lillard's on the floor while Denver's absolutely craters from really good to Portland levels when Jokic is on the floor. It's interesting to see these on/offs because they indicate that despite Jokic's uniqueness and greatness he really doesn't provide anymore offensive boost to his team than Lillard does to his.

There are different stats that we could compare and different conclusions we can make. So let's see.
1. Nuggets and Blazers have similar OFFRTG 116.4 to 116 (Nuggets 5th Blazers 6th)
2. Nuggets are 15th in DEFRTG right now 111.4, Blazers are 29th with 116.4. So to say both teams are bad at defense is as accurate as saying Nuggets have as good defense as 2nd in DEFRTG 76ers
3. Jokic's DEFRTG 112.8 which is 1 point worst then his teams while Dame's DEFRTG is as terrible as his team 116.8. With Jokic out Nuggets are a little bit better on defense by this stat, whit Dame out Blazers are still terible, so are we going to conclude they are the same. No Jokic is much better. Some stats point Jokic as being great defender, some as good, some as not good. Every defensive stat points to Dame being terrible defender.
4. One more question about stats. Embiid is great rim protector allowing 53% at the rim. Jokic is terrible at 64.2%. Still Embiid is allowing 4.9 DFGM at the rim while Jokic is alowing 4.4 DFGM playing more minutes than Embiid. Explanation please. Which stat is more important DFG% or DFGM?
https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt6/?sort=FGM_LT_06&dir=1

What I want to say is you can't look at just one stat and make a conclusion. And I don't care about SRS, Blazers have as good record as the Nuggets so I think that Dame definitely overleaped LeBron in MVP race and is closing on Janis, Harden, Jokic and Embiid.

The Nuggets have a DRtg of 106 with Jokic off the floor and a defensive rating of 115 with him on the floor. Surely that REALLY good DRtg when he's off the floor is helping to rise the overall DRtg of the team.

[Roy The Natural]

Ya totes, Denver playing well without Jokic is a credit to Jokic

Lillard is now providing a net rating boost of +8.7 for the Blazers while Jokic is providing a boost of +2.5.

There are so many adv stats and this likely to be the only one favors Lillard. Let's look at really on a game to game basis.

Spoiler:

Joker Dame
1 W (+30) 34 W (+25) 33
2 W (+38) 32 W (+26) 26
3 W (+15) 27 W (+11) 22
4 W (+12) 24 W (+19) 20
5 W (+13) 20 W (+6) 18
6 W (+31) 18 W (+11) 17
7 W (+27) 16 W (+2) 14
8 W (+17) 16 W (+18) 12
9 W (+11) 14 W (+3) 11
10 W (+7) 13 W (+9) 10
11 W (+17) 13 W (+2) 9
12 W (+18) 12 W (+1) 9
13 W (+6) 12 W (+6) 9
14 W (+10) 10 W (+1) 9
15 W (+25) 8 W (+2) 6
16 W (+8) 8 W (+4) 6
____________________________________________
17 L (-4) 6 L (-3) 5
18 L (-2) 5 L (-7) 4
19 W (+2) 5 W (+12) 3
20 L (-2) 5 W (+3) 2
21 L (-5) 2 L (-3) 1
22 L (-13) 2 L (-3) 0
23 L (-10) 1 W (+1) 0
24 L (-3) 1 L (-2) -2
25 W (+5) 0 L (-21) -3
26 L (-13) -2 W (+4) -3
27 L (-2) -2 L (-24) -6
28 W (+10) -3 L (-11) -6
29 W (+1) -3 L (-6) -6
30 L (-7) -6 W (+4) -8
31 L (-8) -7 W (+8) -10
32 L (-21) -8 L (-15) -10
33 L (-10) -9 L (-9) -10
34 W (+15) -9 L (-5) -15
35 W (+4) -10 L (-23) -20
36 L (-6) -11 L (-20) -21
37 L (-13) -12 L (-32) -29
38 W (+4) -13 L (-28) -32
39 L (-13) -20 W(+16) DNP

As you can see, both of the teams depend strongly on their performances. Joker played all 39 games. Dame missed one game in which POR won by 16.
Overall, when Joker's in game +/- are equal or greater than 8, his team win all 16 games. Similarly, when Dame's +/- are equal or greater than 6, his team win all 16 games. In those games, Joker's average +/- is +17.3, vs. Dame's 14.4, indicating Joker helped slightly more in team winning.
For the rest of the games, they have the same record, Joker's average is -3.8, Dames is -7.5, indicating Joker was less of a liability.
Just focusing on all the lost games, Joker's average is -3.4, and Dame is -9.9, meaning Dame sucked bigger, but Joker's team could not climb up a much shallower hole.

That's not nearly as telling or useful as on/off data. On/off and lineup data is still the best we've got outside of play-by-play breakdown. The problem with +/- is that any one game may be off-base, and even amalgamated +/- has too many extremes and blowouts thrown in. Looking at the amalgamation on how the defense/offense performs overall with/without these players and which lineups do well/not well is more telling than averaging out exact +/- single game data.

[The Master]

Jokic's DEFRTG 112.8 which is 1 point worst then his teams while Dame's DEFRTG is as terrible as his team 116.8. With Jokic out Nuggets are a little bit better on defense by this stat, whit Dame out Blazers are still terible, so are we going to conclude they are the same. No Jokic is much better. Some stats point Jokic as being great defender, some as good, some as not good. Every defensive stat points to Dame being terrible defender.

This analysis is useless, because you're comparing Nuggets' team DRTG to the DRTG of Nuggets with Jokic on a floor, but it doesn't take into account amount of minutes with and without. If you go by stats from nba.com, Nuggets have 112.8 DRTG with Jokic on a floor and 102.2 DRTG without Joker, their average is 111.4 because Jokic plays 75% of minutes of Nuggets, so the fact that Nuggets are very good defensively without Jokic can't impact team Nuggets general stats that much. In reality, Nuggets are bad defensively with Jokic and great defensively without him, and while a situation that Nuggets are that bad with Jokic on a floor isn't only his fault, Jokic's weaknesses on defense are certainly not helpful either.

Some stats point Jokic as being good defender, because defense is very difficult to evaluate, and many metrics take into account stats that are not precisely representative to real level of defense of a player, like rebounding or steals. Lillard is a point guard, so there's much less mislead about evaluation of his defense. According to same metrics, Russell Westbrook was a great defender thanks to his rebounding, while in reality most of time he was average or even below average because he was statpadding those rebounds no matter what. That's why Jokic's BPM stats and BPM-based formulas are historically great, while in reality it is really flawed formula in defense evaluation.