Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star

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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#221 » by tatertotsnjuice » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:47 pm

Hoops Addict wrote:
tatertotsnjuice wrote:Jonas is good, but hopefully so he can catch up to Enes Kanter's developement since they are the exact same age.

http://www.nba.com/video/channels/top_p ... index.html Yes....there is a good comparison with Kanter. Both are Euros that are the same age. Who will be better? JV looks strong, tall, he will be good.



Kanter is much stronger, better rebounder, better footwork, jumpshot and finished around the rim. Only thing Val has on Kanter is athleticism and playing more above the rim. Still Kanter has a fairly large edge right now in terms of development.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#222 » by Kabookalu » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:51 pm

droponov wrote:
Choker wrote:
droponov wrote:He's done a good job but its' immaterial in this case. Valanciunas would always become a very good to elite defensive player in the NBA. Very predictable considering his traits and how he was a high-level defender at every level before. Great combination of quickness, length, motor and effort. He's still going to struggle in his rookie season though.


Although not many expected his impact to come so immediately. A lot of Raptors fans predicted he would be in foul trouble most of the time making errand decisions on defense, but it's been the complete opposite.


And he'll still have foul trouble whence the games are serious, but it was foolish to believe he'd be clueless considering what he's showed so far. His improvement over the last 2 seasons was notable in that aspect. I remember having lenghty discussions on this issue.

Actually I even charted some stats to show his improvement back then:
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viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1090163&start=405#p28284922

And last season he kept improving. Valanciunas got the fame of being a foul prone player prone to positional lapses because people started paying attention to him in the moment he started playing pro-ball and had to go through an adjustment period. His developmental path has always been positive, he's a fast learner.


I never said he wasn't going to improve, however to come into a league that's completely different of your own and to acclimate yourself into the game while making a huge impact right from the get go was unspoken of. No one predicted for this to happen at all. Many thought it would take a season for him to get used to the different style of the NBA game but he's adjusted already in 5 preseason games.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#223 » by droponov » Thu Oct 25, 2012 2:56 am

I'm not surprised. But he's adjusted to a point. What are exactly your expectations for the real season? How do you expect him to rank among league centers defensively this season? Top-10, top-20, what?
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#224 » by peja drobnjak » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:01 am

tatertotsnjuice wrote:Kanter is much stronger, better rebounder, better footwork, jumpshot and finished around the rim. Only thing Val has on Kanter is athleticism and playing more above the rim. Still Kanter has a fairly large edge right now in terms of development.

you do know there's this whole other side of a basketball court right?
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#225 » by Kabookalu » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:06 am

droponov wrote:I'm not surprised. But he's adjusted to a point. What are exactly your expectations for the real season? How do you expect him to rank among league centers defensively this season? Top-10, top-20, what?


And Casey has a lot to do with that. There's no way that without any guidance Jonas would be able to make such drastic adjustments in the span of a couple of weeks in an entirely new league by himself, don't fool yourself.

Defensively I don't know where he would rank. There aren't that many good defensive centers anymore, so it wouldn't exactly be high praise for him to find himself in the top 10, although that would still be impressive nonetheless he's a rookie. At worst top 15; too early to raise him any higher than that just based off of preseason. If he continues making strides then it's possible for him to be top 10 already.




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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#226 » by Hendrix » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:00 am

Choker wrote:And Casey has a lot to do with that.


Tbh, that's I think it's quite rediculous to be giving Casey credit for Jonas's defense like Casey has some magical powers.

Jonas looked good defensivly right from the first preseason game he played. Prior to that he wasn't practicing with the team, or playing in any scrimmages because he was injured. The guy has played basketball for a long time, you are trying to say that Casey had some magical impact on the guy in a couple weeks together when he wasn't even on the court?

Players don't change their game overnight just by watching a couple weeks of practices. Dramatic improvment takes a lot of time and effort, so clearly it was already there.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#227 » by Kabookalu » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:08 am

Hendrix wrote:Tbh, that's I think it's quite rediculous to be giving Casey credit for Jonas's defense like Casey has some magical powers.

Jonas looked good defensivly right from the first preseason game he played. Prior to that he wasn't practicing with the team, or playing in any scrimmages because he was injured. The guy has played basketball for a long time, you are trying to say that Casey had some magical impact on the guy in a couple weeks together when he wasn't even on the court?

Players don't change their game overnight just by watching a couple weeks of practices. Dramatic improvment takes a lot of time and effort, so clearly it was already there.


Not ridiculous if you actually watched his games overseas. Casey can't make magic but he's been credited for the improvements of many players' defense. Bargnani actually looks competent now, and he did last year too before he fell with injury. One interesting case, Tyson Chandler. One season in Dallas with Casey and all of a sudden he's a DPOY player. He was good before, but not DPOY material.




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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#228 » by Hendrix » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:01 am

Choker wrote:Not ridiculous if you actually watched his games overseas. Casey can't make magic but he's been credited for the improvements of many players' defense.

Nope, it's pretty ridiculous. 2 weeks on the sidelines listening to someone is not anywhere in the ballpark of the amount of time and effort it takes for players to make a major difference in their game.

You literaly just said he was a magician at turning players into better defenders, but he can't make magic?

Bargnani actually looks competent now, and he did last year too before he fell with injury.

Not he didn't. He's been decent at post defense for a few years now, but he was not anywhere near competent last year in team defense And, this year during preseason games he's varried between looking competent and awful from game to game in respect to team D.

One interesting case, Tyson Chandler. One season in Dallas with Casey and all of a sudden he's a DPOY player. He was good before, but not DPOY material.

He's always been a great defender. I'm not sure how a DPOY award is supposed to prove. He didn't win it while with Casey, but rather with a complete different team. How does Caset get this credit? And, it's an award that doesn't mean much as Dwight lost it more than Chanlder won it, and it's voted on by a bunch of journalists that get influenced by things other than who the best defender is.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#229 » by Kabookalu » Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:15 am

Hendrix wrote:Nope, it's pretty ridiculous. 2 weeks on the sidelines listening to someone is not anywhere in the ballpark of the amount of time and effort it takes for players to make a major difference in their game.

You literaly just said he was a magician at turning players into better defenders, but he can't make magic?


It was an exaggeration, that was clear enough. If Casey could make magic then it would have worked with every single player he's worked with, but it's obvious that's not the case. Ed Davis doesn't look like a beneficiary of his, even if it should being how much potential defensively he showed in his rookie year. Part of it also comes with the players willing to listen who have open ears, and clearly Bargnani, Jonas, and Chandler before them are those types of players. It's obvious you haven't watched any of Jonas' games overseas and you probably won't, rather sticking to your baseless guns. Here's a post from a person who watched Jonas more than me:

Los Manos wrote:Valanciunas is never a passenger defensively or offensively. His level of focus out there never wavers and while he makes mistakes on both ends, he never takes that to the next play and gets straight back into it.

The biggest difference with his fouling is being so much smarter with his hands and not being put into switches as often on the perimter. In Europe and at FIBA level he too often compensated for switches by trying to use his hands on the ball handler to slow down his progress to the hoop. The defensive principles that Casey preaches are relatively easy to follow if you're smart, it requires quick reactions to positioning and hedging that are set in stone and I haven't seen him very often hung out to dry trying to keep up with the foot speed of guards from the perimeter. That allows him to get back to his position, set himself and get his hands in the air before the ball handler enters his space and the refs are showing him the respect for playing those situations correctly.

You just don't see defenses set up like ours conventionally in FIBA. Coaches rely on a lot of switches which just can't happen in the NBA with the speed of the guards and the even more limited contact that refs allow. As I say Valanciunas has rarely been left hanging out to dry guarding a perimeter player where his eagerness to make a difference defensively can often result in him instinctively using his hands when his feet can't keep up with the ball-handler in an attempt to slow him down. In last years LKL finals games when he had two horrendous games of foul trouble, the majority of them were because the defense dictated that he switch and had guards taking him off the dribble and as soon as his hands reached to the body the refs called the foul.

The clarification by the refs in the NBA over the last few years has helped him too with clear guidelines on how you can legally absorb contact in the post and not be called for a foul if you are straight up with your hands in the air and Casey and the coaching staff have drilled him remarkably well in such a short time. I'll take a player who is 7ft & long-armed with quick feet and positionally sound 90% of the game over a drifting athletic shot blocker any day. The impact that Valanciunas has had by simply following our defensive principles and making himself big in the paint without over-reaching and trying to block everything has made a huge difference to our interior defense.


Not he didn't. He's been decent at post defense for a few years now, but he was not anywhere near competent last year in team defense And, this year during preseason games he's varried between looking competent and awful from game to game in respect to team D.


Your hate for Bargnani still precedes you. Awful? He's hardly looked awful, maybe you're mistaking him for DeRozan; he's looked decent to good so far. Bargnani's strengths on defense came from his man defense, not his team defense, which he's looked better at last year before his injury and so far in preseason.

He's always been a great defender. I'm not sure how a DPOY award is supposed to prove. He didn't win it while with Casey, but rather with a complete different team. How does Caset get this credit? And, it's an award that doesn't mean much as Dwight lost it more than Chanlder won it, and it's voted on by a bunch of journalists that get influenced by things other than who the best defender is.


He's better now than before; if that wasn't the case, there was no way that Charlotte would have settled for a package of Matt Carroll and Erick Dampier, and before him Jose Calderon. He did something for Chandler, ingrained with him his principles that have stuck with him beyond Dallas.




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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#230 » by Los Manos » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:12 pm

To clarify Choker, the credit I gave Casey in the defensive impact Valanciunas has had in pre-season is less to do with changing the player and more to putting him in defensive situations to succeed which has prevented his negative instincts (overuse of the hands) from being a factor.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#231 » by Johnny Firpo » Thu Oct 25, 2012 12:40 pm

tatertotsnjuice wrote:Kanter is much stronger, better rebounder, better footwork, jumpshot and finished around the rim. Only thing Val has on Kanter is athleticism and playing more above the rim. Still Kanter has a fairly large edge right now in terms of development.


Nonsense. I would wager a large bet that Valanciunas' rookie season will destroy anything Kanter done in his rookie year. Jonas is a much better defender, comparable rebounder, and i actually see him as a better back to the basket player at this point, and of course most certainly a much better free throw shooter. Kanter has a nice looking jumpshot, but he certainly aren't using it much. Jonas' hook shot, and back to basket game imo is already more developed. I like Kanter too btw, but in no way or shape is he ahead of Jonas on the developmental curve.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#232 » by droponov » Thu Oct 25, 2012 1:55 pm

Choker wrote:
droponov wrote:I'm not surprised. But he's adjusted to a point. What are exactly your expectations for the real season? How do you expect him to rank among league centers defensively this season? Top-10, top-20, what?


And Casey has a lot to do with that. There's no way that without any guidance Jonas would be able to make such drastic adjustments in the span of a couple of weeks in an entirely new league by himself, don't fool yourself.

Defensively I don't know where he would rank. There aren't that many good defensive centers anymore, so it wouldn't exactly be high praise for him to find himself in the top 10, although that would still be impressive nonetheless he's a rookie. At worst top 15; too early to raise him any higher than that just based off of preseason. If he continues making strides then it's possible for him to be top 10 already.


I'm sorry, but Valanciunas had how many practices with Casey before the first game? He was injured during training camp, so 3 or 4?

If you believe that's what it takes for a coach to build a different defensive player you're beyond delusional.

Casey had a marginal effect because his teams have good defensive organization and he doesn't ask anything too complicated from his players. In that sense, sure, it would have been different with, say, Sam Mitchell, who would have the team forcing wing attacks middle instead of baseline. Or with Triano, under who accountability was little. It's easier to play defense if you're inserted into a team with solid defensive principles. Or if he was playing for Woodson in the Hawks, switching all the time in screenball situations. But Valanciunas, considering his defensive skill-set individually, isn't noticeably better than what he was his last months in Europe. It's just silly to believe players improve like that, with a couple of practices and a handful of games. Sure, he surpassed your expectations so far: but the problem very clearly resided with your expectations.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#233 » by Kabookalu » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:30 pm

Los Manos wrote:To clarify Choker, the credit I gave Casey in the defensive impact Valanciunas has had in pre-season is less to do with changing the player and more to putting him in defensive situations to succeed which has prevented his negative instincts (overuse of the hands) from being a factor.


That would also imply an improvement in defense though if you're putting him in defensive situations to succeed and he's already acclimating himself to those principles. Maybe he doesn't gain a boost in his ability to read defenses quicker or he's any better as a shotblocker, but whatever Casey has taught him has transformed his impact to be a game changer (and I'm not using that word lightly, he's been absolutely phenomenal). Maybe those abilities were always there and Casey taught him how to get there quicker, and this is my train of thought, that's still a huge improvement.

I've always thought Valanciunas would be great defensively, one day. However to think it would take him seasons to reach there has little to do with his own individual ability and almost everything with how long it takes to get adjusted and get a hang of the ropes in the NBA. To ALREADY be making an impact on defense (man defense notwithstanding, though can't blame him given his frame right now) right from the get go like he's been in this league for seasons is like magic, and I credit a lot to Casey for that.

droponov wrote:I'm sorry, but Valanciunas had how many practices with Casey before the first game? He was injured during training camp, so 3 or 4?

If you believe that's what it takes for a coach to build a different defensive player you're beyond delusional.

Casey had a marginal effect because his teams have good defensive organization and he doesn't ask anything too complicated from his players. In that sense, sure, it would have been different with, say, Sam Mitchell, who would have the team forcing wing attacks middle instead of baseline. Or with Triano, under who accountability was little. It's easier to play defense if you're inserted into a team with solid defensive principles. Or if he was playing for Woodson in the Hawks, switching all the time in screenball situations. But Valanciunas, considering his defensive skill-set individually, isn't noticeably better than what he was his last months in Europe. It's just silly to believe players improve like that, with a couple of practices and a handful of games. Sure, he surpassed your expectations so far: but the problem very clearly resided with your expectations.


I'm the one that's delusional when you're saying that the Raptors have been a good defensive organization, even though prior to Casey's arrival we finished dead last on defense for two straight seasons? I'm the one that's delusional to think Valanciunas has completely voided the adjustment period virtually every player goes through in the NBA, whether they came from the NCAA or overseas?




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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#234 » by JWiLL02 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:42 pm

I think concerns over him being able to bang with NBA players are a bit overblown at this point. To be fair though, nobody expected him to come into this season at close to 260 lbs, but he did. He looked almost the exact same size as Tyson Chandler last Friday, which was shocking.

Clearly he still has a ways to go in terms of building strength, but it's an extremely promising sign in terms of his potential impact as a rookie.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#235 » by Youthanasia » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:42 pm

lol too much hype for Val here, you guys act like enes kanter plays defense like carlos boozer lol he plays good defense and for those who think val's rookie season will be better than enes' lol you guys are all idiot. What can enes do at rookie season behind al jeff mansap and favors, he gets only 13 min and 4.6 4.2 are pretty decent translate that to 36
min it gives 12.5 pts 11.5 rebs lol it's still better than jonas' pre season stats

BY THE WAY JONAS IS FOUL PRONE BUT ENES isn't.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#236 » by Kabookalu » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:45 pm

Youthanasia wrote:BY THE WAY JONAS IS FOUL PRONE BUT ENES isn't.


That's because Jonas is the defensive anchor, and so far Jonas actually hasn't been foul prone at all. In fact a lot of his fouls have come from cheap rookie calls. I've counted a lot of his blocks that were called as fouls even though they were clean.




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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#237 » by BrooklynBulls » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:51 pm

Choker wrote:He's better now than before; if that wasn't the case, there was no way that Charlotte would have settled for a package of Matt Carroll and Erick Dampier, and before him Jose Calderon. He did something for Chandler, ingrained with him his principles that have stuck with him beyond Dallas.


Bunch of crap. Tyson was a great defender, AMAZING defender in 04-05. He desperately needed to add weight, but the amount of game-saving plays he had for the Bulls that season was utterly peerless. He disappointed in later years because of being out of shape and often injured, but he was a very valuable defensive player for NO as well.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#238 » by JWiLL02 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:52 pm

Choker wrote:
Youthanasia wrote:BY THE WAY JONAS IS FOUL PRONE BUT ENES isn't.


That's because Jonas is the defensive anchor, and so far Jonas actually hasn't been foul prone at all. In fact a lot of his fouls have come from cheap rookie calls. I've counted a lot of his blocks that were called as fouls even though they were clean.


Yeah some of his reactions to those have been funny. I recall on one he looked perplexed, then Lowry ran over and whispered something to him like "just smile and walk away", then Jonas shot the ref a jerky smile and lined up for FTs.

Can't get on the refs bad side this early. :rofl:
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#239 » by clockwork » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:52 pm

Youthanasia wrote:lol too much hype for Val here, you guys act like enes kanter plays defense like carlos boozer lol he plays good defense and for those who think val's rookie season will be better than enes' lol you guys are all idiot. What can enes do at rookie season behind al jeff mansap and favors, he gets only 13 min and 4.6 4.2 are pretty decent translate that to 36
min it gives 12.5 pts 11.5 rebs lol it's still better than jonas' pre season stats

BY THE WAY JONAS IS FOUL PRONE BUT ENES isn't.

mansap? he's my favorite player.
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Re: Jonas Valanciunas: 7-footer has the makings of a star 

Post#240 » by Kabookalu » Thu Oct 25, 2012 6:54 pm

BrooklynBulls wrote:Bunch of crap. Tyson was a great defender, AMAZING defender in 04-05. He desperately needed to add weight, but the amount of game-saving plays he had for the Bulls that season was utterly peerless. He disappointed in later years because of being out of shape and often injured, but he was a very valuable defensive player for NO as well.


Did I ever say he wasn't? I said he's better now than before.




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