2013-14 MVP Discussion Thread Pt III

[ThePersianFreak]

Why am I like what? Questioning LeBron for running up the score vs the Bobcats and then gassing out in a far more important game the following day? Questioning the media for making SUCH a big deal about it?

Watch this video from Keith Olbermann (an ESPN employee ironically).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2c1CfV1jvg

Pretty much my thoughts on the ridiculous amount of overhype on LeBron's 61 point game.

Pretty much everybody who's having a career night will do that. KD did it this year against Warriors while they were up big.
It was a career night, and good thing is that he did it. at the end of the day we're watching basketball for fun, and these type of games are fun to watch. everybody in the game thread were hoping that LeBron would stay in the game. you don't like it cause you think it's changed people's mind about the MVP race. it's your personal problem if you think it should'nt have.
And don't act like LeBron had 28 pts in the 4th, he had 57 with 8 minutes left in the 4th. so a total of 4pts is what you're whining about like a little girl for about 48 hours non-stop?
I just hope LeBron will get just to see your reaction, your tears would be priceless

Sorry to interject on this conversation, but the game KD had against GSW was a close win (6 points, 10 going into the 4th), where Lebron played the game going into the quarter up over 20. Brooks has pulled Durant multiple times, including to end his 30 point game streak against Brooklyn.

Im not talking about the start of 4th. but midway through the 4th when Durant got hot from deep and they were up like 17 and he still was in the game.
And i say it again, he had 57 with 8 mins left in the 4th, so 4pts is all you're angry about? his advanced numbers would be much better if he did'nt play those 8 minutes, and he got so tired that he could'nt play good against the Rockets. so as a Durant fan you should be happy about it.
You're just angry because the media guys were so hyped about that performance, and why should'nt they be? we've had 2 such games in past 4-5 years. it should get attention. it should affect the MVP talk. you're just not liking it because it was'nt you favourte player.

[bondom34]

Pretty much everybody who's having a career night will do that. KD did it this year against Warriors while they were up big.
It was a career night, and good thing is that he did it. at the end of the day we're watching basketball for fun, and these type of games are fun to watch. everybody in the game thread were hoping that LeBron would stay in the game. you don't like it cause you think it's changed people's mind about the MVP race. it's your personal problem if you think it should'nt have.
And don't act like LeBron had 28 pts in the 4th, he had 57 with 8 minutes left in the 4th. so a total of 4pts is what you're whining about like a little girl for about 48 hours non-stop?
I just hope LeBron will get just to see your reaction, your tears would be priceless

Sorry to interject on this conversation, but the game KD had against GSW was a close win (6 points, 10 going into the 4th), where Lebron played the game going into the quarter up over 20. Brooks has pulled Durant multiple times, including to end his 30 point game streak against Brooklyn.

Im not talking about the start of 4th. but midway through the 4th when Durant got hot from deep and they were up like 17 and he still was in the game.
And i say it again, he had 57 with 8 mins left in the 4th, so 4pts is all you're angry about? his advanced numbers would be much better if he did'nt play those 8 minutes, and he got so tired that he could'nt play good against the Rockets. so as a Durant fan you should be happy about it.
You're just angry because the media guys were so hyped about that performance, and why should'nt they be? we've had 2 such games in past 4-5 years. it should get attention. it should affect the MVP talk. you're just not liking it because it was'nt you favourte player.

I'm not angry at all, I've got nothing against Lebron, and think he's a great player. I was simply correcting an error in your post that tried to discredit Durant. And here's the game log against GSW:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70OKC.html
OKC up 9 in the 4th, Durant makes 2 3s around a basket by GSW, OKC up 13, timeout w/ about 6 minutes left. GSW is completely capable of going off for that in 6 minutes, Charlotte not so much. After this, the only reason that lead went up was because of Durant hitting shots.

[ThePersianFreak]

Sorry to interject on this conversation, but the game KD had against GSW was a close win (6 points, 10 going into the 4th), where Lebron played the game going into the quarter up over 20. Brooks has pulled Durant multiple times, including to end his 30 point game streak against Brooklyn.

Im not talking about the start of 4th. but midway through the 4th when Durant got hot from deep and they were up like 17 and he still was in the game.
And i say it again, he had 57 with 8 mins left in the 4th, so 4pts is all you're angry about? his advanced numbers would be much better if he did'nt play those 8 minutes, and he got so tired that he could'nt play good against the Rockets. so as a Durant fan you should be happy about it.
You're just angry because the media guys were so hyped about that performance, and why should'nt they be? we've had 2 such games in past 4-5 years. it should get attention. it should affect the MVP talk. you're just not liking it because it was'nt you favourte player.

I'm not angry at all, I've got nothing against Lebron, and think he's a great player. I was simply correcting an error in your post that tried to discredit Durant. And here's the game log against GSW:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70OKC.html
OKC up 9 in the 4th, Durant makes 2 3s around a basket by GSW, OKC up 13, timeout w/ about 6 minutes left. GSW is completely capable of going off for that in 6 minutes, Charlotte not so much. After this, the only reason that lead went up was because of Durant hitting shots.

As i said it 2 times before, he had 57 freaking pts with 8 mins left in the quarter. you should'nt be mad about it (im talking to you mr Rustless).

[bondom34]

Im not talking about the start of 4th. but midway through the 4th when Durant got hot from deep and they were up like 17 and he still was in the game.
And i say it again, he had 57 with 8 mins left in the 4th, so 4pts is all you're angry about? his advanced numbers would be much better if he did'nt play those 8 minutes, and he got so tired that he could'nt play good against the Rockets. so as a Durant fan you should be happy about it.
You're just angry because the media guys were so hyped about that performance, and why should'nt they be? we've had 2 such games in past 4-5 years. it should get attention. it should affect the MVP talk. you're just not liking it because it was'nt you favourte player.

I'm not angry at all, I've got nothing against Lebron, and think he's a great player. I was simply correcting an error in your post that tried to discredit Durant. And here's the game log against GSW:
http://www.basketball-reference.com/box ... 70OKC.html
OKC up 9 in the 4th, Durant makes 2 3s around a basket by GSW, OKC up 13, timeout w/ about 6 minutes left. GSW is completely capable of going off for that in 6 minutes, Charlotte not so much. After this, the only reason that lead went up was because of Durant hitting shots.

As i said it 2 times before, he had 57 freaking pts with 8 mins left in the quarter. you should'nt be mad about it (im talking to you mr Rustless).

Again, not mad, and I'll just leave it there.

[James Rustles]

Again, not mad, and I'll just leave it there.

It's the same story everytime you present a fair criticism about LeBron now that he's won a ring. Dominique did it the other day, and ended up tweeting something like "Some very sensitive LeBron fans out there, my goodness!"

Look at Olbermann's last 30 tweets or so. He's gotten so much backlash from LeBron fans for suggesting that maybe the media hyped up that performance a bit much....



I said the other day that Durant still had the lead for MVP and got shunned like I just said Austin Rivers was the best player in the league or something. I don't get it.

Also, some of Olbermann's responses to the LeBron fans attacking him are hilarious. He literally said "I have to stop on these butt-hurt @KingJames sycophants. #Heat fans are THE dumbest people I've ever encountered in sports. #ByeFelicia." More funny because he literally works for the LeBron network in ESPN.

[PaulieWal]

Look at Olbermann's last 30 tweets or so. He's gotten so much backlash from LeBron fans for suggesting that maybe the media hyped up that performance a bit much....

Olbermann has no ground to stand on. First Take, Numbers Never Lie, PTI, Around the Horn and every SC segment led with "LeBron's 61". Olbermann can say whatever he wants but when his employer is leading with "LeBron's 61" on almost every other show it is quite hypocritical to make a big deal about media hype. In the end, it just seems more media hypocrisy and idiocy. First ESPN hypes up his performance on almost every show they air and then have a media personality of their own bash the hype. Win-Win for them. They did the same with The Decision. They gave him a platform to announce where he was signing and then on the other hand they used countless of their shows to bash him.

Also, it's not LeBron's fault that the media hypes what he does. He can't control that. And whether or not you like it, the media votes on the MVP. What you seem to be missing is that it's not about his 61 point game that is shaping this MVP debate. This 61 point is coming in the midst of a tear that LeBron is on minus the Utah and now the Houston game. His performances against GSW, Dallas, Suns, OKC, and LAC in the month of February along with a few other games have put him right back in the race. The 61 point game is simply the culmination of the tear he has been on and as a fan I hope he continues to play well. That's why many believe he is right back up there, only slightly behind KD. The race will go down to the wire and if both of these guys keep on playing well, I won't even care who gets it. At that point you tip your hat to these two phenomenal talents and simply hope that they meet in the Finals for a good series.

[HotRocks34]

The 61 point game is simply the culmination of the tear he has been on and as a fan I hope he continues to play well. That's why many believe he is right back up there, only slightly behind KD

This is how I also see the race. Durant has the (narrowly) better record right now, so he has the (narrow) lead. Mark Stein of ESPN seems to be of a similar opinion, that the race is extremely tight now:

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post ... e-mvp-race

I've still got Durant in the lead because of the load he's shouldered in carrying OKC to a 22-8 record in the games Russ Westbrook has missed through injury. But I'm using lead in the narrowest sense. What we've seen from LeBron over the last few weeks -- don't forget the crazy 3 he drained in Golden State before All-Star Weekend -- has essentially prompted me to delete the word "frontrunner" from my MVP lexicon for the rest of the season...The right answer might very well be: Neither of them has the MVP lead

LeBron will have the opportunity to alter the "Without Wade" narrative further in the days to come, as Wade seems nearly certain to miss at least 6 more back-to-back games (either the front end or the back end of those sets). So LeBron will have a chance to better the 10-6 "Without Wade" record and close the gap on the "Without Westbrook" record. As I said recently here, the Heat have won their last 5 games without Wade. Should James and the Heat be able to keep that trend going, then that would give James another argument to play which could help counter the "Without Westbrook" argument.

We'll see how it works out.

[QPR]

I still think Durant should have the advantage re: the "without Westbrook/Wade" arguments. He's in the much tougher conference and his supporting cast is far less experienced than LeBron's without Wade. But there's no doubt that the Heat are playing a lot better now with and without Wade, as you'd expect a veteran team to do after the break.

From memory OKC were a 3rd or 4th seed in the West when RW went down, and the general consensus was if they could hold their position they'd have done extremely well. Instead they went and got a lead in the West and at one point had a better record than Indiana, primarily on the back of the ridiculous play of Durant.

[Dark Faze]

Minus a complete meltdown I don't see how Durant loses this. LeBron is playing in a historically bad eastern conference so the team difference in record in rather significant, and it can't be argued that the loss of Westbrook for such a large chunk of time is more significant than Wade missing a game here and there.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is fantastic, but all he has over Durant is efficiency right now, and Durant is no slouch there.

[therealbig3]

Minus a complete meltdown I don't see how Durant loses this. LeBron is playing in a historically bad eastern conference so the team difference in record in rather significant, and it can't be argued that the loss of Westbrook for such a large chunk of time is more significant than Wade missing a game here and there.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is fantastic, but all he has over Durant is efficiency right now, and Durant is no slouch there.

But the Heat are 17-5 against the West this year, which is actually a better winning percentage than they have against the East. OKC is 19-6 against the East this year, which is slightly better, but pretty much right around the winning percentage they have against the West.

The difference in team record really isn't significant at all, considering that Miami has destroyed the West this year.

[Dark Faze]

Minus a complete meltdown I don't see how Durant loses this. LeBron is playing in a historically bad eastern conference so the team difference in record in rather significant, and it can't be argued that the loss of Westbrook for such a large chunk of time is more significant than Wade missing a game here and there.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is fantastic, but all he has over Durant is efficiency right now, and Durant is no slouch there.

But the Heat are 17-5 against the West this year, which is actually a better winning percentage than they have against the East. OKC is 19-6 against the East this year, which is slightly better, but pretty much right around the winning percentage they have against the West.

The difference in team record really isn't significant at all, considering that Miami has destroyed the West this year.

It's not just a record thing. When you face lesser competition more often then it's easier to hit higher stats and give less effort.

That's not to say that LeBron is coasting but he's facing easier competiton more often than Durant is. Its just a fact.

And even if that argument didn't exist Durant still leads him in categories minus efficiency.

[PaulieWal]

Minus a complete meltdown I don't see how Durant loses this. LeBron is playing in a historically bad eastern conference so the team difference in record in rather significant, and it can't be argued that the loss of Westbrook for such a large chunk of time is more significant than Wade missing a game here and there.

Don't get me wrong, LeBron is fantastic, but all he has over Durant is efficiency right now, and Durant is no slouch there.

But the Heat are 17-5 against the West this year, which is actually a better winning percentage than they have against the East. OKC is 19-6 against the East this year, which is slightly better, but pretty much right around the winning percentage they have against the West.

The difference in team record really isn't significant at all, considering that Miami has destroyed the West this year.

It's not just a record thing. When you face lesser competition more often then it's easier to hit higher stats and give less effort.

That's not to say that LeBron is coasting but he's facing easier competiton more often than Durant is. Its just a fact.

And even if that argument didn't exist Durant still leads him in categories minus efficiency.

As of right now there stats are very comparable and it won't simply be about stats.

Code: Select all

Player          Season  G   MP   FG  FGA  FG%  3P%  2P%  FT% TRB AST  PTS
                                                                         
Kevin Durant   2013-14 60 38.4 10.5 20.5 .510 .395 .552 .874 7.7 5.5 31.7
LeBron James   2013-14 56 37.3 10.1 17.4 .582 .379 .640 .745 6.9 6.4 27.4

Code: Select all

Player          Season  G  PER  TS% eFG% WS/48
                                             
Kevin Durant   2013-14 60 30.6 .639 .563  .312
LeBron James   2013-14 56 30.2 .660 .624  .281

After falling behind in January, LeBron has increased his raw and advanced stats. As others have said it will simply be about the team record, how these two close out the season, and the level of their individual play. KD isn't going to win this on stats.

[Dark Faze]

there's a big difference between 32 and 27 ppg.

And the above stats widely favor Durant. So again, by what metric should LeBron be ahead at this point?

I wouldn't feel comfortable giving it to LeBron unless he had 5+ wins over Durant at the end of the year.

[PaulieWal]

there's a big difference between 32 and 27 ppg.

And the above stats widely favor Durant. So again, by what metric should LeBron be ahead at this point?

I wouldn't feel comfortable giving it to LeBron unless he had 5+ wins over Durant at the end of the year.

Durant isn't going to win this on PPG. How do they widely favor Durant? They are very comparable and Durant's huge advantage in PER and WS is also shrinking, in fact the PER gap is almost negligible at this point. If the season ended today KD would win it but not because of his raw stats. I am not sure what else to say. It will be a combination of team record, how they finish the season, and their level of individual play.

[Dark Faze]

there's a big difference between 32 and 27 ppg.

And the above stats widely favor Durant. So again, by what metric should LeBron be ahead at this point?

I wouldn't feel comfortable giving it to LeBron unless he had 5+ wins over Durant at the end of the year.

Durant isn't going to win this on PPG. How do they widely favor Durant? They are very comparable and Durant's huge advantage in PER and WS is also shrinking, in fact the PER gap is almost negligible at this point. If the season ended today KD would win it but not because of his raw stats. I am not sure what else to say. It will be a combination of team record, how they finish the season, and their level of individual play.

Because most writers aren't focused on advanced stats?

The narrative will be stats, record, "obstacles", and difficulty of field

Stats: How is a difference of 5 ppg not significant? It's like comparing 27ppg against 22 ppg, it's a massive difference in effectiveness. Advanced stats are similar enough not to be a huge advantage for LeBron.

Record: Durant currently leading here

Obstacles: Westbrook being out for significant time > Wade sitting on back to backs

Difficulty of Field: The East is historically bad

So again, the only thing LeBron could really do is have a decent team victory lead over Durant and I just don't see it happening. One win won't cut it. Maybe not even three wins. Again, the East is historically bad.

[HotRocks34]

I still think Durant should have the advantage re: the "without Westbrook/Wade" arguments. He's in the much tougher conference and his supporting cast is far less experienced than LeBron's without Wade. But there's no doubt that the Heat are playing a lot better now with and without Wade, as you'd expect a veteran team to do after the break.

From memory OKC were a 3rd or 4th seed in the West when RW went down, and the general consensus was if they could hold their position they'd have done extremely well. Instead they went and got a lead in the West and at one point had a better record than Indiana, primarily on the back of the ridiculous play of Durant.

The Heat are the oldest team in the league by average player's age. And they're trying to go to their 4th straight Finals. They're old. They're fatigued. They're not motivated for the regular season. They're dragging. The "not experienced supporting cast" isn't necessarily a help to Durant in this regard when comparing it with LeBron's aging supporting cast, IMO.

Someone asked or said about Westbrook being out a lot means more than Wade missing a few games. If Wade misses 6 more games related to back to backs, then that means he will have missed 22 games this year. Westbrook has missed 30 games. Not a giant difference there.

So, what will have to be done, I would imagine, is to look at the winning percentage for Miami Without Wade and compare it with OKC Without Westbrook. This is still going to be a tough road for LeBron, because he and the Heat are going to need to finish up well for the rest of the year without Wade in order to give LeBron a good argument for "Without Wade Winning Percentage" to look like "Without Westbrook Winning Percentage." It's possible, we'll see how it works out.

Miami's record against the West will make the "tougher conference" argument more challenging for Durant supporters, I think.

Finally, as regards PPG. LeBron's TS% is higher than Durant's, as is LeBron's eFG%. Durant is shooting like 3 more FGA per game than LeBron. Thus, you would think that if LeBron put up more shots, he would have similar PPG to Durant. Which means that the PPG argument likely isn't going to be a deciding factor as things look right now.

If the trajectories stay about the same as they are on right now, I do think this will come down to which team has the best record. We'll just have to wait and see if that is the case and which team will have the best record. Miami's closing schedule appears to be harder than OKC's, so LeBron has his work cut out for him, whatever the criteria may be.

[QPR]

I wonder what Miami's record against the West would be if they were playing them as regularly as a West team would. It's obviously excellent but they don't go on the same stretches of playing good West sides, and have more games they can go at less than 100%.

I don't think it's as a simple as saying "Miami have a 17-5 record against the West" because it would inevitably come down if it was extrapolated out. That's a third of their games only.

[MisterHibachi]

I wonder what Miami's record against the West would be if they were playing them as regularly as a West team would. It's obviously excellent but they don't go on the same stretches of playing good West sides, and have more games they can go at less than 100%.

I don't think it's as a simple as saying "Miami have a 17-5 record against the West" because it would inevitably come down if it was extrapolated out. That's a third of their games only.

MVP race isn't gonna be decided on what-ifs. I could say they would maintain that percentage playing in the West, you will say no they won't. Who's right? No way to find out so what's the point of discussing it? Everyone plays the schedule they're given. All that should matter is how well you do playing that schedule.

[Benedict_Boozer]

Big games tonight for the MVP race - OKC against PHX is a good matchup, as is MIA vs SA.

MIA match-up is on TNT so will be a large audience tuning it to that one given the 7 game series last year.

[KING JAMES1978]

there's a big difference between 32 and 27 ppg.

And the above stats widely favor Durant. So again, by what metric should LeBron be ahead at this point?

I wouldn't feel comfortable giving it to LeBron unless he had 5+ wins over Durant at the end of the year.

Yes but also FG% 58.2 and 51.0 is big difference too.58.2% for a small forward is just unreal.
MJ who considered by many as the GOAT had FG% career high 53.9
Bird had FG% career high 52.7
Magic had FG% career high 56.5
Just think how great and legendary is Lebron's FG% 58.2