2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread

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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#221 » by bondom34 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 8:28 pm

Triples333 wrote:
Gil wrote:I don't think Westbrook's numbers are sustainable at all especially with his high-octane style of play. He has the highest motor of any Superstar but with the minutes & usage he's averaging it's only a matter of time before fatigue kicks in. As a matter of fact his advanced stats are already slowly dropping already.

I think the MVP race is Kawhi's to lose at this point. Harden is my dark horse but I don't think he has the team to compete with Kawhi. Tyler Ennis and Ryan Anderson's inability to defend are the only reason the Rockets aren't 4-0 right now.

His usage% is 44% lol which would totally blow away the highest ever mark. He already looks gassed honestly. Last night he was hands on knees gasping for air at times. Harden's numbers are sustainable and Kawhi's are also besides the efficiency. Westbrook no chance.

Not addressing anything else, but I'm not sure where you get this from.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#222 » by Kabookalu » Thu Nov 3, 2016 8:34 pm

I've never seen Westbrook look gassed, ever. That guy is half horse.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#223 » by Triples333 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 9:34 pm

bondom34 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:
Gil wrote:I don't think Westbrook's numbers are sustainable at all especially with his high-octane style of play. He has the highest motor of any Superstar but with the minutes & usage he's averaging it's only a matter of time before fatigue kicks in. As a matter of fact his advanced stats are already slowly dropping already.

I think the MVP race is Kawhi's to lose at this point. Harden is my dark horse but I don't think he has the team to compete with Kawhi. Tyler Ennis and Ryan Anderson's inability to defend are the only reason the Rockets aren't 4-0 right now.

His usage% is 44% lol which would totally blow away the highest ever mark. He already looks gassed honestly. Last night he was hands on knees gasping for air at times. Harden's numbers are sustainable and Kawhi's are also besides the efficiency. Westbrook no chance.

Not addressing anything else, but I'm not sure where you get this from.

A few things stook out to me last night from the last quarter alone (I just re-watched the game a couple hours ago). He was leaving balls short (front rim) or just way off to the side in the 4th quarter, he was slower than normal fighting around screens, their pace slowed down significantly last night from their prior games, he turned the ball over 4+ times in spots I don't think he normally would have (again only 4th quarter here since this is when I thought he looked winded), and after his best burst of the 4th where they passed the ball right to him and he blew by Griffin for the layup, he spent the next defensive possession with his hands on his knees crouched over on the near side of the court (then after the timeout with a minute or so left following his 4th turnover in 6 minutes he just knelt over his knees for air again until a camera got right in his face and he punched it away). Did I just make that one sentence? Whoops.

That being said in the final minute with it being so close he drew from within and made multiple huge plays. But overall in that quarter he was really really struggling and showed a lot of fatigue to me. I think that tonight against the Warriors if they can keep it close he should be able to ride off adrenaline again, but over the course of the season he is going to show really serious signs of fatigue and a drop in his game unless they drop his usage a lot.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#224 » by bondom34 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 10:46 pm

Triples333 wrote:
bondom34 wrote:
Triples333 wrote:His usage% is 44% lol which would totally blow away the highest ever mark. He already looks gassed honestly. Last night he was hands on knees gasping for air at times. Harden's numbers are sustainable and Kawhi's are also besides the efficiency. Westbrook no chance.

Not addressing anything else, but I'm not sure where you get this from.

A few things stook out to me last night from the last quarter alone (I just re-watched the game a couple hours ago). He was leaving balls short (front rim) or just way off to the side in the 4th quarter, he was slower than normal fighting around screens, their pace slowed down significantly last night from their prior games, he turned the ball over 4+ times in spots I don't think he normally would have (again only 4th quarter here since this is when I thought he looked winded), and after his best burst of the 4th where they passed the ball right to him and he blew by Griffin for the layup, he spent the next defensive possession with his hands on his knees crouched over on the near side of the court (then after the timeout with a minute or so left following his 4th turnover in 6 minutes he just knelt over his knees for air again until a camera got right in his face and he punched it away). Did I just make that one sentence? Whoops.

That being said in the final minute with it being so close he drew from within and made multiple huge plays. But overall in that quarter he was really really struggling and showed a lot of fatigue to me. I think that tonight against the Warriors if they can keep it close he should be able to ride off adrenaline again, but over the course of the season he is going to show really serious signs of fatigue and a drop in his game unless they drop his usage a lot.

He literally does that every game. So I'm guessing you just don't see him much? Because last night he was great late game, and I've honestly never once heard anyone say he looks tired, let alone 4 games in, let alone when Harden is playing equal mpg as him. Its really just an argument that makes no sense.

Also:

http://stats.nba.com/game/#!/0021600064/?ID=4&StartRange=21600&EndRange=28800&RangeType=2

He had 4 rebounds and 1 assist with a 15.9 net rating.

He always has 4th quarter TOs, that wasn't abnormal at all. Also, every player rests their hands on their knees, and I know 100 percent for sure Russ does, that's just a strange thing to note.

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So, him struggling really didn't happen at all, which is why that's such a weird thing to say.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#225 » by Triples333 » Thu Nov 3, 2016 11:24 pm

I do watch him a lot, he doesn't look nearly as tired in those pictures as what I am talking about. Do you have league pass? Just re-watch the last 5 minutes and you'll see what I mean. In the timeout in particular he's actually bent over facing the ground at the 1:20 mark. That with everything else I mentioned (pace slowing dramatically from a team that was #1 pace - slow getting around screens - no legs on his 3's... he missed all 7 attempts - he just looks tired to me already)

Also 4 turnovers in 6 minutes down the stretch isn't abnormal? I think it's abnormal.

He has a 44% usage man. Harden's is 33%. Only one is sustainable.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#226 » by bondom34 » Fri Nov 4, 2016 12:59 am

I never said he'd stay at 44 USG. That's insanely high, there's no way he does. We're 4 games in, it literally takes 1 game to flip these numbers.

But again, to say anything 4 games in a season is from being tired is bizarre. And given he's had the same things in every year, in every 4th quarter, I'm questioning the thinking.

In 4 games he had a game with USG of 54. And believe it or not, I don't think he keeps it at 54 all season either. He also had a game w/ 44 FGA. I don't think he keeps that as his average either.

But the fatigue idea, for him, most notable 4 games in, is just really funny.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#227 » by Ugly0598 » Fri Nov 4, 2016 3:53 am

The Thunder are absolute garbage (you can make your case for Adams, Oladipo, Kanter being decent, sure) without Westbrook. Should be MVP if they even get to the 6 seed.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#228 » by Gil » Fri Nov 4, 2016 4:07 am

Another trash game by Westbrook. Harden and Durant have overtaken him in the MVP race for me. They're both Leagues apart in terms of scoring/efficiency in comparison to Russ.

1. Kawhi
2. Harden
3. Durant
4. Westbrook
5. LeBron

A few people said he wouldn't get gassed but here we are.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#229 » by HotRocks34 » Fri Nov 4, 2016 5:07 am

LeBron moves to the top as Westbrook hits a hard wall. LeBron huge game on national TV and the Cavs are the only remaining unbeaten squad in the NBA.

Harden on the ascent.

Still don't think any Warriors player will have a serious chance to win it given the circumstances.

1. LeBron ======> 5-0
2. Leonard =====> 4-1
3. Westbrook ===> 4-1
4. Harden ======> 3-2
5. Durant (stats are huge, even though I don't think any Warrior will win this award this year) ====> 4-1
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#230 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Fri Nov 4, 2016 7:35 am

Pretty sick people are bigging up swegbrook when the real mvp demar is getting no love whatsoever. Real Disrespectful. Don't worry, friendo, demar's gonna drop another 30 and tell some haters to back the f off.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#231 » by GreatWhiteStiff » Fri Nov 4, 2016 7:41 am

HotRocks34 wrote:LeBron moves to the top as Westbrook hits a hard wall. LeBron huge game on national TV and the Cavs are the only remaining unbeaten squad in the NBA.

Harden on the ascent.

Still don't think any Warriors player will have a serious chance to win it given the circumstances.

1. LeBron ======> 5-0
2. Leonard =====> 4-1
3. Westbrook ===> 4-1
4. Harden ======> 3-2
5. Durant (stats are huge, even though I don't think any Warrior will win this award this year) ====> 4-1


Man lebron barely scored more than the celts backcourt. 1 good game and a solid team does not an MVP make. Derozan is >>> Lebron right now, old hoss. Make way for the new boss.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#232 » by miman15 » Fri Nov 4, 2016 11:51 am

GreatWhiteStiff wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:LeBron moves to the top as Westbrook hits a hard wall. LeBron huge game on national TV and the Cavs are the only remaining unbeaten squad in the NBA.

Harden on the ascent.

Still don't think any Warriors player will have a serious chance to win it given the circumstances.

1. LeBron ======> 5-0
2. Leonard =====> 4-1
3. Westbrook ===> 4-1
4. Harden ======> 3-2
5. Durant (stats are huge, even though I don't think any Warrior will win this award this year) ====> 4-1


Man lebron barely scored more than the celts backcourt. 1 good game and a solid team does not an MVP make. Derozan is >>> Lebron right now, old hoss. Make way for the new boss.


We know that Derozan is currently playing well.. he's in the outside looking in. Theres no need to be insecure.

Now, its more likely his game will falter in the mid season. Like usual. He ia just not reliable...
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#233 » by Big_Aristotle » Fri Nov 4, 2016 12:47 pm

DeRozan the new Boss? You have to be kidding me. :)
Put him on any of the lottery teams and well... they remain lottery teams.
Put LeBron on the 76ers and they actually make the playoffs, he's that good
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#234 » by HotRocks34 » Fri Nov 4, 2016 1:56 pm

GreatWhiteStiff wrote:
HotRocks34 wrote:LeBron moves to the top as Westbrook hits a hard wall. LeBron huge game on national TV and the Cavs are the only remaining unbeaten squad in the NBA.

Harden on the ascent.

Still don't think any Warriors player will have a serious chance to win it given the circumstances.

1. LeBron ======> 5-0
2. Leonard =====> 4-1
3. Westbrook ===> 4-1
4. Harden ======> 3-2
5. Durant (stats are huge, even though I don't think any Warrior will win this award this year) ====> 4-1


Man lebron barely scored more than the celts backcourt. 1 good game and a solid team does not an MVP make. Derozan is >>> Lebron right now, old hoss. Make way for the new boss.


DeRozan is playing great. Really high PER and WS/48. LeBron is up on him in BPM.

I give LeBron the edge because the Cavs are unbeaten. Team success matters for MVP, and Cavs beat the Raptors as well.

If DeRozan plays like this all year, well, he will definitely be way up there in the MVP conversation.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#235 » by inquisitive » Fri Nov 4, 2016 2:29 pm

quite a few players having big numbers....i think 50 wins is the magical number to seriously be considered.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#236 » by Madhouse » Fri Nov 4, 2016 4:12 pm

Kawhi. That roster is not good without him.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#237 » by Triples333 » Fri Nov 4, 2016 6:57 pm

Madhouse wrote:Kawhi. That roster is not good without him.

Just going by offensive/defensive rating on/off they still show as a very strong team this year/last year without him on the court. A lot better with him on, but still very strong. It's a Pop run team, they're not going to suck with players like LMA, Pau and Danny Green with some young guards and incredible leadership from their aging stars (albeit less so on the production front for sure).

Plus, the Thunder have no offense without Westbrook (granted their defense is amazing and what is keeping them afloat... with their offense being bottom of the barrel). And the Rockets are as single-player reliant as any team in the NBA. If we're looking at the argument from the prism of "if this player is gone then they are in serious trouble", then I think Harden might be the most deserving choice. Can't rule out Lebron here either. Kyrie/Love have been really good and their role players like TT are strong, but that is still his team 100% and they go as he goes.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#238 » by Hero » Fri Nov 4, 2016 7:12 pm

UtahJazzFan88 wrote:The Thunder are absolute garbage (you can make your case for Adams, Oladipo, Kanter being decent, sure) without Westbrook. Should be MVP if they even get to the 6 seed.


That's not how the MVP works. If he isn't top 2-3 then he has no shot and can fight for 3rd 4th place in voting.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#239 » by Gil » Fri Nov 4, 2016 8:25 pm

Net Rating On/Off
Harden: +11.6 / -29.3
Westbrook: +3.7 / -15.1

Like I said, Harden's the leading candidate for MVP if we're discounting win totals. He's doing the most with the least like he's always done. He's just playing at a much higher level this season in every aspect & has spot up shooters this season in Gordon & Anderson.

On a side note:-

Net Rating On/Off
LeBron: +15.2 / +0.3
Durant: +12.1 / -6.2

Cavs are insane this season & are actually competent with LeBron off the floor this season while KD looks like the Warriors best player by far at the moment.
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Re: 2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread 

Post#240 » by MisterHibachi » Fri Nov 4, 2016 8:40 pm

Gil wrote:Net Rating On/Off
Harden: +11.6 / -29.3
Westbrook: +3.7 / -15.1

Like I said, Harden's the leading candidate for MVP if we're discounting win totals. He's doing the most with the least like he's always done. He's just playing at a much higher level this season in every aspect & has spot up shooters this season in Gordon & Anderson.

On a side note:-

Net Rating On/Off
LeBron: +15.2 / +0.3
Durant: +12.1 / -6.2

Cavs are insane this season & are actually competent with LeBron off the floor this season while KD looks like the Warriors best player by far at the moment.


Where are you getting your stats?

LeBron is a net +20.2 this year (+15.5 on/-4.7 off).
Westbrook is a net +22.3 (+4.5 on/-17.8 off).
Harden is a net +38.7 (+13.3 on/-25.4 off).
Durant is a net +10.7 (+11.2 on/+0.5 off). And Curry and Draymond have pretty much the same splits.
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