2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[mihail_petkov]

No, when they play with LeBron they are All-Stars. When LeBron is out and they are asked to carry the load they are horrific.

This year when LeBron has been out of the game the Cavs are -8.6 points/100 possessions. The Nets are -6.3pts/100 possessions for the season. This isn't even a small sample size. Its a full season.

Or maybe because Cavs are build to use LeBron's strength and not Kyrie's or Love's. Remove LeBron, give them a training camp to build own system and the are top 5 team in the East. Even Warriors needed 3-4 games when Durant injured his leg to switch to the old system. It's not like a video game to change your style when your best player is out for just a game or two.

WTF does this mean? It is pretty evident to me that the team is built on surrounding LeBron with shooters. If Kyrie were anything close to the player people suggest he should want the ball with shooters everywhere. Only when that is the team on the floor they get destroyed. They can run PnR with Ky/TT, they can run PNR with Ky and KLove. What they cannot seem to do is make any of that work. Which to me shows that they aren't the players people believe them to be. Which is largely what the advanced stats say.

Of course, Kevin Love was awful for Timberwolves. His Wolves won 40 games in Western Conference while having multiple injuries, but he couldn't win 45-50 in the pathetic East. 2014 Love was better player than any player in the East right now except LeBron and maybe Giannis.

[-Sammy-]

Literally like arguing with a brick wall.

I'm done bruh.

Can't wait to be vindicated when Lebron doesn't even finish in the top 3.

I enjoy it when people don't respond to any of the points, but just write stuff like 'I'm done; it's like talking to a brick wall' instead; It's basically the same as conceding the points, and if you had cogent rebuttals, you'd post them.

Maybe if someone were leading me better, I'd do a better job of articulating my case.

And for the record, I've already said LBJ probably won't finish in the top-three; that's an arbitrary cutoff that doesn't mean anything. He'll get plenty of votes, because the voters are objective analysts, not anti-LBJ activists.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Yeah I don't want to continue the conversation because it's going nowhere, and I'm not enjoying the discourse.

If you want to write that off as "winning" go ahead.

I'll let you have the last word since that seems really important to you as well.

[The Box Office]

Yup. I have no problem with it. They're down 20 points. It's a team game. Westbrook feeds them the ball. His teammates can't make the shots. That's not Westbrook's fault.

I went through the Derrick Rose vs. LeBron MVP race. The comments were much worse here on RealGM than Westbrook getting the triple doubles against Harden. A lot of you ignored Chicago's best record of 62-20 entirely and kept talking about Rose's inefficiency and why Rose's stats do not match up to LeBron. Yes, Rose's individual numbers were not close to LeBron's.

The story lines and praise from Hall of Famers, towards the end of the season, which have nothing to do with stats and win record, drive the MVP race, too. Rose got Michael Jordan's and NBA.com's praise. LeBron did not. I knew it was over.

Same goes for Westbrook. He got MJ's praise along with other Hall of Famers and coaches. Harden didn't get that. Westbrook is currently number one on NBA.com's MVP ladder.

Tonight's game against the Suns showed how crappy Westbrook's teammates are. They really do suck. Oladipo, Taj Gibson, McDermott, Roberson, and Steven Adams. Couldn't even make a clean jump shot for a Big Mac if they tried. Awful roster and Westbrook force fed them the ball to make shots.

I disagree with most of what you said, but I was specifically referring to the last 3-5 minutes. Westbrook was still in the game and they were down 20+. He wasn't trying to win the game. He was trying to get two more assists to hit a statistical benchmark. That's blatant stat chasing. It has nada to do with playing to win the game or be competitive. That's how he tried to break a record tonight....passing the ball around in a blowout trying to pad stats.

The crowd was cheering him on to do it. I don't think he cares that much, honestly. I mean, I think he cares, but more because everyone else does, not because he does. He wants to appease them to get it over with.

To the bold print, yes, that's correct.

To King Malaki, I don't care if you disagree. Good. I want you to disagree. Because I'm right. I'm set with MVP Westbrook. He earned it. Huge props to the man. Don't care about stat padding and all that. Every legend in the game are 100 percent aware of their stats. Each one of them pad their stats because they are damn good to do it.

[ken6199]

At the mid-point of the season I thought excluding LBJ it was Harden's MVP to lose, but during these last two weeks that just happened and Westbrook is my MVP.

Fair take.

So last two weeks overwhelms half a season, is that what you are saying?

I assume not, just curious though.

No where did I say last two weeks overwhelms half a season you are reading too much into it. Just because harden was leading at that point, does not mean Westbrook wasn't having a terrific season or was not worthy of the MVP. I don't get why Houston fans are so defensive over the fact that narrative and recency bias plays a factor to the award when they both are so deserving of those awards.

That's because I really really hate recency bias.

I can't speak of all Houston fans, but I never for once said 'Oh give the award to Harden he got this in the bag' after his big nights. I always look at the whole season performance, not putting any more weight on the 2nd half of the season than the 1st half. Let alone the last two weeks.

I just felt this whole 'last two weeks' thing is getting out of proportion. I would have said the same thing if it was Harden instead of Westbrook (who is actually in my avatar instead of Harden, which says a lot already).

[Mr. E]

That's because I really really hate recency bias.

I can't speak of all Houston fans, but I never for once said 'Oh give the award to Harden he got this in the bag' after his big nights. I always look at the whole season performance, not putting any more weight on the 2nd half of the season than the 1st half. Let alone the last two weeks.

I just felt this whole 'last two weeks' thing is getting out of proportion. I would have said the same thing if it was Harden instead of Westbrook (who is actually in my avatar instead of Harden, which says a lot already).

I was at a seminar a while back and recency bias was one of the topics being discussed. There were so many experts in the room, and the general consensus was that recency bias is easily identified; but almost impossible to eliminate. Humanity as a whole really is a "what have you done for me lately" creature.

[bwgood77]

Well if there is REAL recency bias, Westbrook was 6/25 with 8 turnovers last night. No way he wins it now.

Disclaimer: I don't care who wins it because I think cases can easily be made for both.

[inquisitive]

I think Westb breaking O's record sealed it for him. I hope i'm wrong, but i think it's over for Harden.

[RightToCensor]

I'm curious if Westbrook's assist hunting against Phoenix will get the attention of ESPN on Monday. If it's swept under the rug then I don't think it'll have a noticable difference in terms of where voters are leaning. I was surprised that I didn't see Westbrook trending after the game, there seemed to be more coverage of him in the practice gym than what took place in the fourth quarter of that Phoenix game.

[StepBackCrack]

This season is mostly about Russ and KD. For the media, they are the most relevant/interesting superstars this season because of the storyline. Harden doesn't really have any story going for him so I can see why Russ is way more preferred for the media when it comes to the MVP race. Stats are not the only thing that boosts WB's chances to win. The media narrative behind his MVP case is the strongest. In 2016, it was all about Steph until the finals. Next season it could be about someone else (in the RS at least). Could be Kawhi's turn to get his MVP. Who knows.

[-Sammy-]

That's because I really really hate recency bias.

I can't speak of all Houston fans, but I never for once said 'Oh give the award to Harden he got this in the bag' after his big nights. I always look at the whole season performance, not putting any more weight on the 2nd half of the season than the 1st half. Let alone the last two weeks.

I just felt this whole 'last two weeks' thing is getting out of proportion. I would have said the same thing if it was Harden instead of Westbrook (who is actually in my avatar instead of Harden, which says a lot already).

I was at a seminar a while back and recency bias was one of the topics being discussed.

I was at a similar seminar even more recently than you; I'm sure the one I attended was better than one you attended.

[ThomYorke]

Was Dirk the last MVP to be eliminated in the first round?

[JordansBulls]

Was Dirk the last MVP to be eliminated in the first round?

Well he had the best record in the league, so that was inexcusable.

[RightToCensor]

This is how SC spun Westbrook's assist hunting.

Watch on YouTube

[ken6199]

That's because I really really hate recency bias.

I can't speak of all Houston fans, but I never for once said 'Oh give the award to Harden he got this in the bag' after his big nights. I always look at the whole season performance, not putting any more weight on the 2nd half of the season than the 1st half. Let alone the last two weeks.

I just felt this whole 'last two weeks' thing is getting out of proportion. I would have said the same thing if it was Harden instead of Westbrook (who is actually in my avatar instead of Harden, which says a lot already).

I was at a seminar a while back and recency bias was one of the topics being discussed.

I was at a similar seminar even more recently than you; I'm sure the one I attended was better than one you attended.

and the one I am about to attend at some point in the next two years is surely gonna be better both of yours?

You are right Mr.E, recency bias is hard to eliminate and probably in some way it should be included into the MVP consideration, legit. I was just having a hard time at it and overreacted a bit (ever since that Kawhi's chasedown block on Harden in SAS-HOU game 4), gotta do better.

[Mr. E]

That's because I really really hate recency bias.

I can't speak of all Houston fans, but I never for once said 'Oh give the award to Harden he got this in the bag' after his big nights. I always look at the whole season performance, not putting any more weight on the 2nd half of the season than the 1st half. Let alone the last two weeks.

I just felt this whole 'last two weeks' thing is getting out of proportion. I would have said the same thing if it was Harden instead of Westbrook (who is actually in my avatar instead of Harden, which says a lot already).

I was at a seminar a while back and recency bias was one of the topics being discussed.

I was at a similar seminar even more recently than you; I'm sure the one I attended was better than one you attended.

My seminar was more efficient. The lead speaker brought out the best in his fellow speakers, who really were not worth listening to on their own.

[Mr. E]

I was at a seminar a while back and recency bias was one of the topics being discussed.

I was at a similar seminar even more recently than you; I'm sure the one I attended was better than one you attended.

and the one I am about to attend at some point in the next two years is surely gonna be better both of yours?

You are right Mr.E, recency bias is hard to eliminate and probably in some way it should be included into the MVP consideration, legit. I was just having a hard time at it and overreacted a bit (ever since that Kawhi's chasedown block on Harden in SAS-HOU game 4), gotta do better.

Oh, I agree with you about not liking recency bias. It does negatively affect many situations by discounting earlier play in favor of the last few weeks.

Of course, we've followed the Rockets all season and have seen the narrative about the team change drastically over the season. Remember where we started? How Houston's team was a train-wreck, they'd go nowhere without Dwight and Pringles was a failed coach?

Now they are apparently a solid playoff team even without Harden (who barely makes them better); and Pringles' system is great and everyone knew this all along!

And just for the record, I'm going to schedule a seminar right after your seminar. Upper hand regained!

[-Sammy-]

I was at a similar seminar even more recently than you; I'm sure the one I attended was better than one you attended.

and the one I am about to attend at some point in the next two years is surely gonna be better both of yours?

You are right Mr.E, recency bias is hard to eliminate and probably in some way it should be included into the MVP consideration, legit. I was just having a hard time at it and overreacted a bit (ever since that Kawhi's chasedown block on Harden in SAS-HOU game 4), gotta do better.

Oh, I agree with you about not liking recency bias. It does negatively affect many situations by discounting earlier play in favor of the last few weeks.

Of course, we've followed the Rockets all season and have seen the narrative about the team change drastically over the season. Remember where we started? How Houston's team was a train-wreck, they'd go nowhere without Dwight and Pringles was a failed coach?

Now they are apparently a solid playoff team even without Harden (who barely makes them better); and Pringles' system is great and everyone knew this all along!

And just for the record, I'm going to schedule a seminar right after your seminar. Upper hand regained!

I think the comment I'm typing right now is better than either of your comments because it's the most recent, but I could be biased.

[RightToCensor]

So the Rockets and Thunder will officially meetup in the first round, which then I just realized that we're gonna witness the top two MVP candidates square off at the start of the postseason when everyone is at their most spry.

[tone wone]

Irving and Love are very overrated. They play like crap without him, which means they're not really stars.

Or rather, when they play on LeBron's team, they cease to play like stars.

Over in Houston they began the year with a team that fell off a cliff when Harden went to the bench, but they use D'Antoni's system, so they eventually learned to get good at it too watching Harden & co kill with it.

Cleveland doesn't have a sophisticated scheme like because LeBron didn't want it. When he's out there things run through him, and when he goes to the bench they can't play the same way so they suffer.

None of this is to say I don't knock Love & Irving - I do, and they aren't anywhere near my All-NBA teams whereas LeBron is a lock for 1st team - but when you buy expensive talent and they underperform en masse, there's more going on there than just bad luck in my humble opinion.

I disagree with this assertion for the simple fact that when you don't have any other playmakers, then you need a sophisticated system in order to make things work. That's why it works in Houston, that's why it works in SA.

Kyrie and Love are both used to being the system, in which case, they shouldn't need a coach to implement a D'Antoni style offense that can make even role players flourish for extended periods of time without their best player. I mean, that's why they're All-Stars, no?

The fact that they can't even keep the Cavs from playing horrific basketball while LeBron goes to the bench is not on LeBron, because Kyrie and Love are supposedly stars that don't need a complicated system in order to play well.

To me, the fact that they can't means they are flawed players that are largely overrated. They are being asked to play the same way they've always played in the past, but they can't lead the team anywhere when they do. Which is kind of the story of their careers without LeBron.

I'm also really not understanding what LeBron is doing out there that makes it so restrictive of Kyrie and Love. Especially when he's on the bench and isn't even touching the ball.

Whats so sophisticated about Houstons offense? Please answer this.

All I know is Kyrie is actually outscoring Lebron on a per minute basis. Per36: Lebron 25.2ppg on 17.3fga. Kyrie: 25.7 on 20.2fga. He even has a slightly higher usage..30.7 to LBJs 30.0. Love is rocking a clean 26.8usg%