How good is Jokic? [Poll added]

[Lana Del Rey]

:lol: Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Imagine saying that KAT is better, and then in the same post saying that you "can't respect a bigman that can't play D". Towns is the worst defensive center in the NBA.

Cousins is the most overrated player in the league. He is a diva who can only put up empty stats and lead teams to disaster. Jokic is much better than him.

[Wolfgang630]

He is already the best center in the NBA. Within two to four years, we will be talking about him as the best center since Shaq.

Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Do you even know what you're talking about?

Literally I just said this in the other topic about KAT getting a pass on defense and here you are proving that point. Do you even know KAT is the worst defensive center? Yet you call out Jokic.

[Nuggets_Talk]

Why was he a 2nd round pick? What were the thoughts on Jokic going into the draft?

He was being compared to a Taco Bell burrito

[Nuggets_Talk]

The people trying to use "where has he taken his team" can be applied to any 2nd year or 3rd year player in NBA history since most star players don't go anywhere in their first few years. So please get that crap out of here. This dude is crazy. You can't take away his impact he had on the team when Nurkic was gone and he started leading them to the best offense.

Plus people forget the nuggets were projected to be a bad lottery team. He got them within one game of the playoffs and basically surpassed almost all preseason win predictions

[Roddy B for 3]

He is already the best center in the NBA. Within two to four years, we will be talking about him as the best center since Shaq.

Agreed. Sky is the limit for this kid. But I have him a better passer and FT than Shaq.

But, do you have him as a better scorer and defensive anchor than 'Shaq? And is Passing+FT shooting more valuable than scoring+defense?

*Edit
I just realized you meant in a few years people will talk about him as a better Center than DH12(best since 'Shaq). Doubtful he will be the best since 'Shaq, but possible. Embiid, KAT, Cousins, AD, Marc, Pau, Bynum, Whiteside, Deandre, Yao and others are all still in his way (Tim and KG played a lot of 5 in the post-'Shaq era).

I definitely don't think Embiid will be healthy and I think Naw Lens wants AD to be a 4, KG and TD were mostly 4's same as Draymond. So, best center since 'Shaq in a few years, I could easily see generally as Yao vs Pau vs KAT vs Marc vs Dwight vs Cousins vs Jokic vs 'Zingler vs Bynum vs . I assume my order for, two year-peak-play at that point would be

Dwight
Yao
Pau
*EDIT Gobert (I originally spaced on him)
KAT
Marc
Cousins
Jokic
Bynum
Larry Sanders
Zingler

So, yea I think he could very well be in the conversation.

Shoutout to Dray' Green, for the title of "being in the conversation".

[Nuggets_Talk]

Jokic is a really good passer, but his defense is trash. I think Jokic can become something great, but right now pump the brakes, cause only Towns, KP and Embiid (when healthy) are best young bigs in the league.

I disagree with this statement

[Screwston]

:lol: Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Imagine saying that KAT is better, and then in the same post saying that you "can't respect a bigman that can't play D". Towns is the worst defensive center in the NBA.

Cousins is the most overrated player in the league. He is a diva who can only put up empty stats and lead teams to disaster. Jokic is much better than him.

Towns is bad on defense 2, but he gets more rebounds, more blocks, more points than Jokic, so yes he's better. Cousins plays way better defense than both of them. Putting 16 ppg, with a horrific D for a bigman doesn't impress me much. Towns is putting 25, Cousins is putting up 25+.

[Woodsanity]

:lol: Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Imagine saying that KAT is better, and then in the same post saying that you "can't respect a bigman that can't play D". Towns is the worst defensive center in the NBA.

Cousins is the most overrated player in the league. He is a diva who can only put up empty stats and lead teams to disaster. Jokic is much better than him.

Towns is bad on defense 2, but he gets more rebounds, more blocks, more points than Jokic, so yes he's better. Cousins plays way better defense than both of them. Putting 16 ppg, with a horrific D for a bigman doesn't impress me much. Towns is putting 25, Cousins is putting up 25+.

This is why people need to stop looking at raw stats. OMG Towns has more blocks as steals. Blocks and steals don't = good defense.

Towns is just as bad as Jokic on defense actually if you wanna use "stats" he is worse than Jokic. Worse dbpm, drapm, defensive rating. Jokic plays far fewer minutes of course he puts less stats but really Jokic in 26 minutes produces more than Towns in 36. He is an elite offensive anchor already at this point leading a top 4 offensive team that has less talent than the T-Wolves.

Fact of the matter is the T-Wolves as a team are horrible on D just like the Nuggets but the Nuggets are way better offensively with comparable/worse talent.

[Screwston]

This is why people need to stop looking at raw stats. OMG Towns has more blocks as steals. Blocks and steals don't = good defense.

Towns is just as bad as Jokic on defense actually if you wanna use "stats" he is worse than Jokic. Worse dbpm, drapm, defensive rating. Jokic plays far fewer minutes of course he puts less stats but really Jokic in 26 minutes produces more than Towns in 36. He is an elite offensive anchor already at this point leading a top 4 offensive team that has less talent than the T-Wolves.

Fact of the matter is the T-Wolves as a team are horrible on D just like the Nuggets but the Nuggets are way better offensively with comparable/worse talent.

Blocks and steals don't mean good defense I agree, n I've never said it does, but he gets more than Jokic. Defensive rating is not that accurate, Harden at one point had better defensive rating than some of the better defensive players in the league. As of right now Towns is better than Jokic, as well as Cousins.

Denver is way better offensively but they also play at much higher pace, Denver is 7th in the league in terms of pace, Timbs are 25th.

[wjun15]

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[lars_rosenberg]

He is already the best center in the NBA. Within two to four years, we will be talking about him as the best center since Shaq.

Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Cousins is a lot less efficient than Jokic. Shooting percentages and advanced stats testify this.
Jokic made the Nuggets offense ELITE with basically only Gallinari as a offensively skilled teammate, while Cousins never did with the Kings (where he had Isiah Thomas and Rudy Gay, skilled offensive players) and the Pelicans (with AD and Jrue).
Towns is trash on defense, you should check your sources.

[FNQ]

I'd take KAT over Jokic, Jokic over KP. I think it's closer between KAT/Jokic than Jokic/KP... KP really needs to bring up those efficiency #s before I start buying him as a prospect on the same level as the other 2.

[Edrees]

He's one of the most exciting players in the league, which is funny because he looks like he's playing in slow motion.

That's how I always felt about Tim Duncan on every play of his career.

Not saying jokic is as good or will ever be as good as duncan btw.

[Alatan]

He is already the best center in the NBA. Within two to four years, we will be talking about him as the best center since Shaq.

Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Jokic: Defensive rating 109, Defensive Box plus/minus +2,2, Defensive Win shares 2.0 ( 2038 minutes played), DRPM 2,29

Towns: Defensive rating 110 (worse than Jokic), Defensive Box plus/minus +0,2 (worse than Jokic),
Defensive Win shares 2.8 (3030 minutes played) (better than Jokic, probably due to more minutes/games played),
DRPM -1,41 (worse than Jokic)

Cousins (SAK): Defensive rating 106, Defensive Box plus/minus +2,6, Defensive Win shares 2,6 (1891 minutes player), DRPM 0,64

Stats don't agree with you...

[Screwston]

He is already the best center in the NBA. Within two to four years, we will be talking about him as the best center since Shaq.

Cousins n Karl Anthony Towns are better

Jokic has no defense (he's like top 3 worst defensive C in the league), can't respect a bigman that can't play D, its too important. He's not gonna improve much defensively, so no, can't be the best center since Shaq

Jokic: Defensive rating 109, Defensive Box plus/minus +2,2, Defensive Win shares 2.0 ( 2038 minutes played), DRPM 2,29

Towns: Defensive rating 110 (worse than Jokic), Defensive Box plus/minus +0,2 (worse than Jokic),
Defensive Win shares 2.8 (3030 minutes played) (better than Jokic, probably due to more minutes/games played),
DRPM -1,41 (worse than Jokic)

Cousins (SAK): Defensive rating 106, Defensive Box plus/minus +2,6, Defensive Win shares 2,6 (1891 minutes player), DRPM 0,64

Stats don't agree with you...

LOL @ using defensive rating to prove your point.. Defensive rating has Curry ahead of Kawhi gtfo

[Alatan]

Many people here assume that Jokic doesn't have much upside. I disagree on that.

He has the least NBA ready body out of the top young guys, he is yet to expand his 3 point range and percentage, he can increase his stamina since he always looks gassed in the 3rd/4th quarter.
Adding more muscle and strength would make him an even more deadly low post scorer and PnR roll man. Lower body strength would increase his vertical enough that he can finish comfortably in traffic and his low post defense and rim protection would get better as well. Maybe he could become even more skilled picking up additional moves like Dirks fade away jumper, pump fake with a step in etc. I doubt his lateral quickness can improve but he can get better at positioning and timing on D like Marc Gasol.

Nothing of what i said is too hard to believe. Muscle, strength, stamina are all natural improvements to any athlete and Jokic projects as a great 3 point shooter.

[LightTheBeam]

The overrating hype has begun.

Realgm

1. Players starts out underrated
2. Said player gets overrated.
3. Value balanced out

My prediction is next summer we realize his true value.

[Alatan]

LOL @ using defensive rating to prove your point.. Defensive rating has Curry ahead of Kawhi gtfo

And what do you use ? Towns highlights videos?

[Woodsanity]

This is why people need to stop looking at raw stats. OMG Towns has more blocks as steals. Blocks and steals don't = good defense.

Towns is just as bad as Jokic on defense actually if you wanna use "stats" he is worse than Jokic. Worse dbpm, drapm, defensive rating. Jokic plays far fewer minutes of course he puts less stats but really Jokic in 26 minutes produces more than Towns in 36. He is an elite offensive anchor already at this point leading a top 4 offensive team that has less talent than the T-Wolves.

Fact of the matter is the T-Wolves as a team are horrible on D just like the Nuggets but the Nuggets are way better offensively with comparable/worse talent.

Blocks and steals don't mean good defense I agree, n I've never said it does, but he gets more than Jokic. Defensive rating is not that accurate, Harden at one point had better defensive rating than some of the better defensive players in the league. As of right now Towns is better than Jokic, as well as Cousins.

Denver is way better offensively but they also play at much higher pace, Denver is 7th in the league in terms of pace, Timbs are 25th.

Offensive rating already takes into account pace. Its not points scored imo so pace doesn't make much of a difference.
Agreed defensive rating isn't a good stat but drapm isn't too bad. THere really isn't a good stat to capture defense lets just say neither is a good defender at this point, I haven't been impressed by either defensively from what I have seen. Towns definitely has way more defensive potential than Jokic but it hasn't translated to anything yet. Maybe in a season or two he will get there but until then neither player has a discernible advantage on D.

What I would hold against Jokic is whether he can play big minutes or not.

[Dan Z]

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Damn. IMO if the Bulls never traded up for Doug McDermott, and kept Nurkic and Gary Harris, then they also would not have traded Butler. They'd be a much different team and one to watch out for (do they even sign Wade in that case? My guess is no...they'd use that money on someone else).