Nikola Jokić and best Bigmen passers of all time

DAWill1128 · Post #221 » by **DAWill1128** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 12:21 am

Kevin Garnett actually averaged 5apg for 6 straight yeara and 4apg for 10. He was basically a vocal AD with a passing game during his prime.

The Kings had three of them, Webber, Divac, and Miller all were wizards when it came to passing the ball.

Blake Griffin has actually averaged 5apg for 5 years now I believe.

Rubio9Guy · Post #222 » by **Rubio9Guy** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 1:15 am

Watch Jokic thrive makes me sad for KAT. Jokic has an entire system and roster built around him.

KAT has neither.

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Post #223 » by **THE J0KER** » Tue Oct 23, 2018 2:10 am

Nikola Jokic is actually much better passer than his career average stats shows. Nuggets coach Malone should be blamed for that because of every single season (except current) Jokic started with the wrong type of offense, before at some point between Christmas and all-star game, he finally gets right role, to run Nuggets offense as NBA unique 'point-center'.

Nikola Jokic career stats, before Christmas only, after Christmas, and last two seasons after February 1st:

PTS - REB - AST - (TrplDbl) - period
15.1 - 9.1 - 4.5 (16TD) 2015-18 career stats
12.0 - 7.7 - 3.0 ( 0 TD) 2015-18 before Christmas stats
16.5 - 9.9 - 5.2 (16TD) 2015-18 after Christmas stats
20.3 -11.3- 6.7 (14TD) 2016-18 last 2 seasons after Feb 1st

BTW, this underachieved "before Christmas" stats are the main reason why he missed last two seasons all-star games, despite deserved it in 2016-17 and 2017-18 both time. During all-star voting (2nd half of December and 1st half of January) his season stats were not even close so impressive like at the end of both seasons. But we are already safe now to say that since this current 2018-19 season such things will not happen anymore with Jokic (and Malone). Jokic signs a max contract and officially become Nuggets franchise player, and coach Malone finally decided to run Denver offense since the early start of the season on the same great way team finished the previous season.

UcanUwill · Post #224 » by **UcanUwill** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:43 am

Johnlac1 wrote:Funny that, huh? That's why I always get a chuckle when GOAT turns out to be someone playing currently or recently.
Reminds me of one of my friends who started watching his old school's girls bb team and declared the star players were the best players in the city's history. I asked him how many girl players he had seen before he started watching his school''s girls play. None, he answered.
Jokic and Sabonis certainly are tremendous passers, but many of the people voting for them undoubtedly have never seen earlier players.

There is truth to that, but Jokic hype is justifield IMO. I think most of us are old enough to remember some really amazing passing bigmen like Webber, Divac, Sabonis, Pau, Diaw even, its been quite some time from their prime and I think they stood the test of time and are in conversation for best passers in game, but Jokic seems better than all of them easily, and I dont think its recency bias, he is just insane passer. Obviously a lot of us are too young to genuinely compare him to prime Walton or Chamberlain, but its hard to imagine a better passer than Jokic is with that size, at least for me.

CIN-C-STAR · Post #225 » by **CIN-C-STAR** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 7:00 am

Jokic is a joy to watch, and certainly has a creative flair with his passes that, in my limited experience as an NBA fan, is unmatched among bigs.
But I'll also add that Pau is going a bit underrated in this discussion. His high-low game and ability to hit cutters from the elbows or the top of the key is still top notch and he's almost 40.

Pachinko_ · Post #226 » by **Pachinko_** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:02 am

His passing is obviously crazy, but to me the most insane thing about him is that he can score over anybody in the paint without jumping. He does this thing where he just puts the ball over his head and waits to see what the defender is gonna do, if he does nothing he just flicks it in the basket, which is an awkward moment where the other guy is just sitting there looking at the ball going in the basket like an idiot. Or if he jumps he just waits for him to come down and then flicks it. But he never understood the need to jump while doing it :lol:

And the other funny thing to me is the TV commentators whose brain refuses to process what they're seeing (4 years later) and they're still coming up with invalid comments like "he's soooo tallllll" or "he is sneaky athletic"
No dude, he's not, he just flicks it over your guy without jumping :lol:

Gooner · Post #227 » by **Gooner** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:23 am

CIN-C-STAR wrote:Jokic is a joy to watch, and certainly has a creative flair with his passes that, in my limited experience as an NBA fan, is unmatched among bigs.
But I'll also add that Pau is going a bit underrated in this discussion. His high-low game and ability to hit cutters from the elbows or the top of the key is still top notch and he's almost 40.

I agree,if Pau's prime was today,when they use big men as main playmakers often,he would average much more assists and have ton of triple doubles.As you point out,he was great at passing from the post and top of the key,but he could also take the ball and initiate transition.He had probably the greates handles of any center i've seen,and was very quick.

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Post #228 » by **NuggetsWY** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 12:46 pm

Sure, the game has changed and more teams are using centers that can pass - and more teams are using centers that can shoot threes and more teams are using smallish centers (although 50-60 years ago many centers were 6'9" and fairly mobile); that doesn't mean great passing centers would have been better passers today.

Look at Walton & Sabonis in Portland; they were both given plenty of opportunity to pass and the same is true of the other center's in the poll. If a player has a truly great strength, then coaches find a way to use that. We tend to call them "unicorns" and in the modern NBA there are more than we've seen in the past. Let's look back though and consider Magic at PG - then Pippen as a point-forward (not the first, but the first to become truly famous for point-forward). Today we have multiple big-guys playing point.

As a Nugget fanatic, of course I think Jokic is the best ever - and perhaps he is, but that doesn't detract from the greatness of many other great passing bigs. Their entire game needs to be considered and then we'll see how great each is (my opinion).

Who knows? Maybe the greatest passing big never made the NBA because he couldn't shoot or rebound or play defense or ... or ... or ...

UcanUwill · Post #229 » by **UcanUwill** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:37 pm

NuggetsWY wrote:Sure, the game has changed and more teams are using centers that can pass - and more teams are using centers that can shoot threes and more teams are using smallish centers (although 50-60 years ago many centers were 6'9" and fairly mobile); that doesn't mean great passing centers would have been better passers today.

Look at Walton & Sabonis in Portland; they were both given plenty of opportunity to pass and the same is true of the other center's in the poll. If a player has a truly great strength, then coaches find a way to use that. We tend to call them "unicorns" and in the modern NBA there are more than we've seen in the past. Let's look back though and consider Magic at PG - then Pippen as a point-forward (not the first, but the first to become truly famous for point-forward). Today we have multiple big-guys playing point.

As a Nugget fanatic, of course I think Jokic is the best ever - and perhaps he is, but that doesn't detract from the greatness of many other great passing bigs. Their entire game needs to be considered and then we'll see how great each is (my opinion).

Who knows? Maybe the greatest passing big never made the NBA because he couldn't shoot or rebound or play defense or ... or ... or ...

Dont underestimate coaching incompetence. Coaches often overvalue reputation, we see this all the time when coaches overplay negative players, because public opinion hasn't yet figured out he sucks. Casey on the Raptors couldn't figure out Bargnani and Gay suck, because when he came in, those two were colored as most talented players on the team, even tho they really weren't. Marc Jackson kept Draymond Green on the bench over David Lee, because you know, Draymond is nobody and David Lee is former all star.

Speaking about best passing bigmen not in the NBA, currently, Ante Tomic is easily the best IMO. Its crazy he never actually played in the NBA, even tho he isn't consistent and is soft and never developed his range. Still very Pau Gasol esque player.

Richard Miller · Post #230 » by **Richard Miller** » Wed Oct 24, 2018 1:47 pm

Rubio9Guy wrote:Watch Jokic thrive makes me sad for KAT. Jokic has an entire system and roster built around him.

KAT has neither.

Absolutely, Wolves should be KAT's team first and foremost, yet occasionally seems like he's not even there.

Post #231 » by **THE J0KER** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:17 am

Just for the record:

At some point in the 4th quarter vs Raptors in Toronto (leading team in NBA right now), Nikola Jokic has 15 assists without any single turnover!

76ciology · Post #232 » by **76ciology** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:21 am

Richard Miller wrote:
Rubio9Guy wrote:Watch Jokic thrive makes me sad for KAT. Jokic has an entire system and roster built around him.

KAT has neither.

Absolutely, Wolves should be KAT's team first and foremost, yet occasionally seems like he's not even there.

Easier to build around a big who is better on D that makes his team a lot better on offense. Than a scorer big with questionable D.

Pachinko_ · Post #233 » by **Pachinko_** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:23 am

Joker averages nearly a triple double per 36.
The obvious problem is of course that he can't play 36 minutes. Work on that beer belly Joker!

Post #234 » by **THE J0KER** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:38 am

Pachinko_ wrote:Joker averages nearly a triple double per 36.
The obvious problem is of course that he can't play 36 minutes. Work on that beer belly Joker!

He can play 35+ minutes actually, but Denver Nuggets coach Mike Malone has some different ideas.

In the last two months of the previous season (March and April, over 20 last games), Nikola Jokic has 21.5 - 11.0 - 6.5 numbers, with playing without problems 35.4 mpg in average!

Pachinko_ · Post #235 » by **Pachinko_** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:40 am

I still dont think he can do it consistently over a whole season. There's a reason all the other guys look like genetically freaky gym rats LOL

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Manimal · Post #236 » by **Manimal** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:49 am

The reason his minutes have been so low this season is mostly due to so many blowouts more than anything else. He's not a guy that I think can play 40 mpg on a nightly basis, but 33-36 mpg wouldn't be an issue. But if you're up by 20+ going into the 4th quarter, there are going to be a lot of games where Jokic is going to sit down the stretch. Hence, only 29 mpg.

Sharkboy242 · Post #237 » by **Sharkboy242** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 4:53 am

Appreciate greatness folks

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RRFB · Post #238 » by **RRFB** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 5:06 am

Post #239 » by **THE J0KER** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 5:08 am

Manimal wrote:The reason his minutes have been so low this season is mostly due to so many blowouts more than anything else. He's not a guy that I think can play 40 mpg on a nightly basis, but 33-36 mpg wouldn't be an issue. But if you're up by 20+ going into the 4th quarter, there are going to be a lot of games where Jokic is going to sit down the stretch. Hence, only 29 mpg.

Jamal Murray at 21 is 2 years younger, but already playing over 34 minutes per game this season, unlike Jokic under 30.

Nuggets played so far 14 games this season where the winner won the game in single-digit advantage. Only twice Jokic played over 33:33 playing time in these 14 games (tonight, and vs Minnesota). Blowout wins and loses have nothing with his shocking playing time for some franchise player. It is coach Malone decision and nothing else.

Sharkboy242 · Post #240 » by **Sharkboy242** » Tue Dec 4, 2018 5:22 am

THE J0KER wrote:
Manimal wrote:The reason his minutes have been so low this season is mostly due to so many blowouts more than anything else. He's not a guy that I think can play 40 mpg on a nightly basis, but 33-36 mpg wouldn't be an issue. But if you're up by 20+ going into the 4th quarter, there are going to be a lot of games where Jokic is going to sit down the stretch. Hence, only 29 mpg.

Jamal Murray at 21 is 2 years younger, but already playing over 34 minutes per game this season, unlike Jokic under 30.

Nuggets played so far 14 games this season where the winner won the game in single-digit advantage. Only twice Jokic played over 33:33 playing time in these 14 games (tonight, and vs Minnesota). Blowout wins and loses have nothing with his shocking playing time for some franchise player. It is coach Malone decision and nothing else.

I think that as the season progresses Malone starts giving him more minutes little by little. Last season towards the end, he was playing Jokic at the top of the 4th quarter and then resting him two minutes around the 8 minute mark... I liked that rotation a lot I'm sad he went away from that.

Who is GOAT passing bigman?