Has Lebron always been this whiny dude that doesn't take accountability for himself/failures?

[Greyhound]

Having said that, as someone who's long respected Lebron this season has been a real disappointment to me in how I view him. He made a bad choice if winning was his goal, has now thrown everyone under the bus and shown some really bad leadership. Just not something I can get behind.

Agreed.

[DirtyDez]

IMO his ego went to another level after Miami. He knew the Cavs were going to do whatever he says and I remember him taking a break from the team to go to Miami. He probably feels the same power in LA.

—-

”[Cavs GM] David Griffin tells the story," Windhorst begins. "He said that LeBron had been moping for weeks.

"It was LeBron's birthday — it was December 30th. They were playing in Atlanta. It was before Atlanta went on their 20-game win streak, so it wasn't really deemed a big game yet. And they thought LeBron was going to play, and LeBron just decided, 'I'm not gonna play.' Like, at the last minute, he told them, 'I'm not playing.' Didn't even come out to the bench, just sat in the back, didn't come out."

Windhorst says the Cavaliers' brass was stunned.

"[James] had sort of just like waved a bit of a white flag there. He just didn't feel like playing. He had never done that ever before. He had always just played through it. And so it was after that game, [the Cavaliers] said, 'Alright, take your two weeks off,' because he had reached a very low point."

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-2-week-break-turned-his-season-around-2015-4

[bondom34]

But numbers do lie in basketball because if you look at numbers with out context, you get a skewed version of reality. I'm not really appealing to authority, I'm just saying it is still not a clear cut case in the eyes of the NBA public that LeBron is better than Kobe career wise.

No, it absolutely is. One is a probable top 3 player at worst. One is borderline top 10 all time. They're not comparable for almost a decade.

What criteria makes Lebron Top 3 at worst?

Probable top 3 at worst. Lebron and Jordan are most likely top 2. For almost everyone (not everyone).

[Jazz9]

Not seeing any urgency from him either so kinda weird for him to point that out.
Honestly it feels like he's not even enjoying playing basketball this year.

[Pablo Escobar]

Having said that, as someone who's long respected Lebron this season has been a real disappointment to me in how I view him. He made a bad choice if winning was his goal, has now thrown everyone under the bus and shown some really bad leadership. Just not something I can get behind.

I agree. Feel like something changed in him to make the decision to play in LA. Maybe he knows something we don't but it'll probably go down as one of the worst FA decision made by a top 20 player ever.

Now staying here probably would have been just as bad. But surely he had a number of other options available to him in much better situations.

He came to chill and make movies.

[so_bored]

Playing the blame game as always.

[LakerLegend]

IMO his ego went to another level after Miami. He knew the Cavs were going to do whatever he says and I remember him taking a break from the team to go to Miami. He probably feels the same power in LA.

—-

”[Cavs GM] David Griffin tells the story," Windhorst begins. "He said that LeBron had been moping for weeks.

"It was LeBron's birthday — it was December 30th. They were playing in Atlanta. It was before Atlanta went on their 20-game win streak, so it wasn't really deemed a big game yet. And they thought LeBron was going to play, and LeBron just decided, 'I'm not gonna play.' Like, at the last minute, he told them, 'I'm not playing.' Didn't even come out to the bench, just sat in the back, didn't come out."

Windhorst says the Cavaliers' brass was stunned.

"[James] had sort of just like waved a bit of a white flag there. He just didn't feel like playing. He had never done that ever before. He had always just played through it. And so it was after that game, [the Cavaliers] said, 'Alright, take your two weeks off,' because he had reached a very low point."

https://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-james-2-week-break-turned-his-season-around-2015-4

That's not ego, that's needing to take a random midseason trip to Miami to "recharge your batteries".

[-TheDocOfDenial]

No, it absolutely is. One is a probable top 3 player at worst. One is borderline top 10 all time. They're not comparable for almost a decade.

What criteria makes Lebron Top 3 at worst?

Probable top 3 at worst. Lebron and Jordan are most likely top 2. For almost everyone (not everyone).

Man I've never seen a top 3 player all time take a two week chill vacation or constantly throw teammates under the bus. If you want to go by impact small forwards have on franchises, LeBron still trails Larry Bird for me.

[heatwillbeback]

Why do players want to play with him? This one is pretty easy. Look at the money Lebron got Tristan Thompson and JR Smith.

[bondom34]

What criteria makes Lebron Top 3 at worst?

Probable top 3 at worst. Lebron and Jordan are most likely top 2. For almost everyone (not everyone).

Man I've never seen a top 3 player all time take a two week chill vacation or constantly throw teammates under the bus. If you want to go by impact small forwards have on franchises, LeBron still trails Larry Bird for me.

I never remember Bird carrying franchises run ineptly and getting arguably the worst supporting cast ever to a finals and later pretty much dominating while being the best player on the planet for over a decade without argument. And Kobe's well behind Bird.

Lebron was a better player than Bird. TBH I don't even do a GOAT list, but there's really no comparison that even requires one.

[LakersLegacy]

I don’t think LeBron has always been this Whitney dude that doesn’t take accountability for himself or his failures.

I think it’s Jersey he is wearing. The Lakers logo and the colors purple and gold have poisoned his blood, heart and mind. And he can’t stop doing it.

[-TheDocOfDenial]

Probable top 3 at worst. Lebron and Jordan are most likely top 2. For almost everyone (not everyone).

Man I've never seen a top 3 player all time take a two week chill vacation or constantly throw teammates under the bus. If you want to go by impact small forwards have on franchises, LeBron still trails Larry Bird for me.

I never remember Bird carrying franchises run ineptly and getting arguably the worst supporting cast ever to a finals and later pretty much dominating while being the best player on the planet for over a decade without argument. And Kobe's well behind Bird.

Lebron was a better player than Bird. TBH I don't even do a GOAT list, but there's really no comparison that even requires one.

LeBron's finals run in the east are beyond over rated with how trash that conference is. Bird came in and improved the celtics win total by 32 games and how to play his whole career in the stacked East. Larry Bird won three straight MVPs and was neck and neck with Magic for the best player of the 80s. LeBron has not been the clear cut best player in the NBA for over a decade. He was the best player in the NBA from 2009 - the end of his finals run in 2016.

[bondom34]

Man I've never seen a top 3 player all time take a two week chill vacation or constantly throw teammates under the bus. If you want to go by impact small forwards have on franchises, LeBron still trails Larry Bird for me.

I never remember Bird carrying franchises run ineptly and getting arguably the worst supporting cast ever to a finals and later pretty much dominating while being the best player on the planet for over a decade without argument. And Kobe's well behind Bird.

Lebron was a better player than Bird. TBH I don't even do a GOAT list, but there's really no comparison that even requires one.

LeBron's finals run in the east are beyond over rated with how trash that conference is. Bird came in and improved the celtics win total by 32 games and how to play his whole career in the stacked East. Larry Bird won three straight MVPs and was neck and neck with Magic for the best player of the 80s. LeBron has not been the clear cut best player in the NBA for over a decade. He was the best player in the NBA from 2009 - the end of his finals run in 2016.

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Edit: Was bored so checked, this was after 2017, so not even including last year. The PC board's top 100 project has Bird 10th and Lebron 3rd. Lebron since added some accolades:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1573442

You're free to that opinion, but it's a vast vast minority. And doesn't really hold against objective measures.

[so_bored]

I never remember Bird carrying franchises run ineptly and getting arguably the worst supporting cast ever to a finals and later pretty much dominating while being the best player on the planet for over a decade without argument. And Kobe's well behind Bird.

Lebron was a better player than Bird. TBH I don't even do a GOAT list, but there's really no comparison that even requires one.

LeBron's finals run in the east are beyond over rated with how trash that conference is. Bird came in and improved the celtics win total by 32 games and how to play his whole career in the stacked East. Larry Bird won three straight MVPs and was neck and neck with Magic for the best player of the 80s. LeBron has not been the clear cut best player in the NBA for over a decade. He was the best player in the NBA from 2009 - the end of his finals run in 2016.

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Bold is absolutely false. Lebron's Heatles were far more stacked yet they never came close to matching Celtic's dynasty. I would take Bird over LeDramaqueen any day of the week.

[bondom34]

LeBron's finals run in the east are beyond over rated with how trash that conference is. Bird came in and improved the celtics win total by 32 games and how to play his whole career in the stacked East. Larry Bird won three straight MVPs and was neck and neck with Magic for the best player of the 80s. LeBron has not been the clear cut best player in the NBA for over a decade. He was the best player in the NBA from 2009 - the end of his finals run in 2016.

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Bold is absolutely false. Lebron's Heatles were far more stacked yet they never came close to matching Celtic's dynasty. I would take Bird over LeDramaqueen any day of the week.

Yeah that's a hard disagree. And see my edit. Free to your opinion but using any objective measure it doesn't hold. If Lebron had that talent with him for his entire career, he'd have had quite an advantage. Again free to your opinion but it's a major minority and doesn't hold against objective measures.

[so_bored]

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Bold is absolutely false. Lebron's Heatles were far more stacked yet they never came close to matching Celtic's dynasty. I would take Bird over LeDramaqueen any day of the week.

Yeah that's a hard disagree. And see my edit. Free to your opinion but using any objective measure it doesn't hold. If Lebron had that talent with him for his entire career, he'd have had quite an advantage. Again free to your opinion but it's a major minority and doesn't hold against objective measures.

Stats aren't absolute objective measures though. Considering how Lebron dominates the ball, plays a self stat padding friendly game, his numbers are very inflated and overrated. If it wasn't for Bird's back injury, he would be in the running for the GOAT.

[bondom34]

Bold is absolutely false. Lebron's Heatles were far more stacked yet they never came close to matching Celtic's dynasty. I would take Bird over LeDramaqueen any day of the week.

Yeah that's a hard disagree. And see my edit. Free to your opinion but using any objective measure it doesn't hold. If Lebron had that talent with him for his entire career, he'd have had quite an advantage. Again free to your opinion but it's a major minority and doesn't hold against objective measures.

Stats aren't absolute objective measures though. Considering how Lebron dominates the ball, plays a self stat padding friendly game, his numbers are very inflated and overrated. If it wasn't for Bird's back injury, he would be in the running for the GOAT.

Except none of this really holds up. Your second sentence is entirely false and tbh I've learned to not debate with anyone who uses a derogatory nickname for a player. Seems a rather easy giveaway

[-TheDocOfDenial]

I never remember Bird carrying franchises run ineptly and getting arguably the worst supporting cast ever to a finals and later pretty much dominating while being the best player on the planet for over a decade without argument. And Kobe's well behind Bird.

Lebron was a better player than Bird. TBH I don't even do a GOAT list, but there's really no comparison that even requires one.

LeBron's finals run in the east are beyond over rated with how trash that conference is. Bird came in and improved the celtics win total by 32 games and how to play his whole career in the stacked East. Larry Bird won three straight MVPs and was neck and neck with Magic for the best player of the 80s. LeBron has not been the clear cut best player in the NBA for over a decade. He was the best player in the NBA from 2009 - the end of his finals run in 2016.

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Edit: Was bored so checked, this was after 2017, so not even including last year. The PC board's top 100 project has Bird 10th and Lebron 3rd. Lebron since added some accolades:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1573442

You're free to that opinion, but it's a vast vast minority. And doesn't really hold against objective measures.

No offense, but the GB rankings are no where near close to the full representation of what the public thinks. For example, during kobe's 2009 run to the title, he was called the best player in the NBA by multiple commentators, coaches and fans alike. Just because the GB poll had it that he was "minimum" since 08, doesn't really hold much water as a "vast majority".

LeBron going back to the Cavs and improving their win total has to be taken into context, he joined another top 20 player and traded for another top 20 NBA player. Yea the team was going to improve and make the playoffs, it wasn't close to the depleted roster a young kyrie had to try and carry. This year, again total roster turnover and Kevin love has been injured most of the year. Last year in no way shape and form LeBron was the best player in the NBA, say what you want about Durant and his "snake ways" but he took LeBron's lunch money in the finals.

When Bird joined the celtics, they were in full rebuild mode. He played with some great players, but so did LeBron. Objective measures with out context are really fun, because for me now Boban is the GOAT.

[so_bored]

Yeah that's a hard disagree. And see my edit. Free to your opinion but using any objective measure it doesn't hold. If Lebron had that talent with him for his entire career, he'd have had quite an advantage. Again free to your opinion but it's a major minority and doesn't hold against objective measures.

Stats aren't absolute objective measures though. Considering how Lebron dominates the ball, plays a self stat padding friendly game, his numbers are very inflated and overrated. If it wasn't for Bird's back injury, he would be in the running for the GOAT.

Except none of this really holds up. Your second sentence is entirely false and tbh I've learned to not debate with anyone who uses a derogatory nickname for a player. Seems a rather easy giveaway

Like whatever you said really holds up. Stats aren't everything and it's absolutely true Lebron is the biggest stat padder there is. Also, good for you, stay retired bud.

[bondom34]

LeBron's finals run in the east are beyond over rated with how trash that conference is. Bird came in and improved the celtics win total by 32 games and how to play his whole career in the stacked East. Larry Bird won three straight MVPs and was neck and neck with Magic for the best player of the 80s. LeBron has not been the clear cut best player in the NBA for over a decade. He was the best player in the NBA from 2009 - the end of his finals run in 2016.

Lebron improved the Cavs by how much from last year to this year and when he was in his prime? Bird had a great franchise and played alongside better players.

And he was the best player from at minimum 08 and has won the PC board's player of the year every year including last. He's absolutely dominated the NBA and your favorite team for a decade.

Not even planning to use actual stats but this isn't close:

http://bkref.com/tiny/mLEm6

Edit: Was bored so checked, this was after 2017, so not even including last year. The PC board's top 100 project has Bird 10th and Lebron 3rd. Lebron since added some accolades:

viewtopic.php?f=64&t=1573442

You're free to that opinion, but it's a vast vast minority. And doesn't really hold against objective measures.

No offense, but the GB rankings are no where near close to the full representation of what the public thinks. For example, during kobe's 2009 run to the title, he was called the best player in the NBA by multiple commentators, coaches and fans alike. Just because the GB poll had it that he was "minimum" since 08, doesn't really hold much water as a "vast majority".

LeBron going back to the Cavs and improving their win total has to be taken into context, he joined another top 20 player and traded for another top 20 NBA player. Yea the team was going to improve and make the playoffs, it wasn't close to the depleted roster a young kyrie had to try and carry. This year, again total roster turnover and Kevin love has been injured most of the year. Last year in no way shape and form LeBron was the best player in the NBA, say what you want about Durant and his "snake ways" but he took LeBron's lunch money in the finals.

When Bird joined the celtics, they were in full rebuild mode. He played with some great players, but so did LeBron. Objective measures with out context are really fun, because for me now Boban is the GOAT.

That's not the GB. Also, it's not even just the PC board. It's pretty much everyone.


Also when Lebron joined the Cavs they were totally decrepit the first time. His first 6 seasons were a wasteland.

Quick google:

https://www.slamonline.com/nba/slams-top-100-players-of-all-time-lebron-james-no-2/
Lebron 2 Bird 10

https://www.foxsports.com/nba/gallery/ranking-the-25-greatest-players-in-nba-history-100716
Lebron 2 Bird 9

https://www.ranker.com/crowdranked-list/the-top-nba-players-of-all-time

Lebron 3 Bird 7

Bird over Lebron isn't really a close call, that's a vast minority opinion. There's some severe underrating of Lebron

As said though it's your ranking, and I'm not even a Lebron fan. But he's gotta be there, and that's a general concensus thing.

Also the Boban for Goat doesn't hold up. His numbers aren't that good.

Stats aren't absolute objective measures though. Considering how Lebron dominates the ball, plays a self stat padding friendly game, his numbers are very inflated and overrated. If it wasn't for Bird's back injury, he would be in the running for the GOAT.

Except none of this really holds up. Your second sentence is entirely false and tbh I've learned to not debate with anyone who uses a derogatory nickname for a player. Seems a rather easy giveaway

Like whatever you said really holds up. Stats aren't everything and it's absolutely true Lebron is the biggest stat padder there is. Also, good for you, stay retired bud.

I will. Would recommend if you want discussion don't start with the weird nicknames. Or call people bud.