Semi-OT: Coronavirus (COVID-19) Discussion Thread

[bondom34]

Just to play devils advocate as I don't think I believe this. Is having entertainment that keeps people happy and more at peace while staying at home not a pretty valuable service? My company makes inks and pigments that go into all kinds of manufactured goods. We're essential...does it really matter if your box of kraft mac and cheese be the normal color blue right now?

No but your company is helping make packaging . WWE is in no way shape or form essential for any human function. It's a pandemic.

It requires a lot of people to put on a show even with no crowd. And puts at risk anyone who works at hotels or food service for them, places that are actually required.

Edit: Sorry if this sounded harsh but like....I'm a fan and its just not essential. MMA can't even happen and its just a strange/impossible claim to make that its necessary, ESPN has people taping in their house.

How does it put hotels and food service at risk? Is this opinion or actual data?

They're not sleeping at the gym. They're not prepping their own food.

[bondom34]

Just to play devils advocate as I don't think I believe this. Is having entertainment that keeps people happy and more at peace while staying at home not a pretty valuable service? My company makes inks and pigments that go into all kinds of manufactured goods. We're essential...does it really matter if your box of kraft mac and cheese be the normal color blue right now?

No but your company is helping make packaging . WWE is in no way shape or form essential for any human function. It's a pandemic.

It requires a lot of people to put on a show even with no crowd. And puts at risk anyone who works at hotels or food service for them, places that are actually required.

Edit: Sorry if this sounded harsh but like....I'm a fan and its just not essential. MMA can't even happen and its just a strange/impossible claim to make that its necessary, ESPN has people taping in their house.

Well, and again I'm somewhat playing devils advocate but mental health is important and we do have to address opening things back up and likely we need to do it slowly. Having 50 people fake fight to entertain people in a closed of area doesn't seem like the most dangerous way to do it. I certainly hope we don't go from 0 to 100 when we start to reopen things and in that transition...why not wrestling?

Mind you my first counter is florida is nowhere near reopening, they're still not at their peak.

Sure, mental health is important. Open everything then, we need entertainment darn it! What can it hurt? Oh wait, there's a pandemic and it puts actual people at risk who are essential.

[Bottomsouth]

Desantis is a doofus. He also wants to reopen schools, because he believe kids aren't affected by the virus. This is what happens when you elect people who don't believe in science.

Like the models?

What models are you referring to? Kids absolutely are affected by the virus, they just experience much milder symptoms generally. They are still carriers and, if school were to reopen now, would spread infection to faculty and family, essentially negating a large portion of the effects of social distancing we've already accomplished.

It seems like there are people who want to do a 2 steps forward, 1-2 steps back approach to social distancing/quarantine. We are doing a good job right now. It took too long to get here though and I don't want to go back and have to start over while another round of this peaks.

What science are you referring to? That’s all I asked.

[SSUBluesman]

Like the models?

What models are you referring to? Kids absolutely are affected by the virus, they just experience much milder symptoms generally. They are still carriers and, if school were to reopen now, would spread infection to faculty and family, essentially negating a large portion of the effects of social distancing we've already accomplished.

It seems like there are people who want to do a 2 steps forward, 1-2 steps back approach to social distancing/quarantine. We are doing a good job right now. It took too long to get here though and I don't want to go back and have to start over while another round of this peaks.

This is the old election polling issue we can't seem to EVER get past. So and so leads so and so by 3 points in the poll. At the bottom of the screen (hopefully it's there) it states there is a margin of error of +/-5. So news person says that someone is leading in the poll (technically true) and the idiot hearing this thinks that the poll says so and so has a majority of votes according to the "experts". Well no, the experts say it is way too close to conclude anything. Similarly, with models we went in knowing from the start that models were based on VERY limited and poor data and had huge margins for error. And people are now drawing the conclusion that models were wrong because the data was both poorly presented to them and worse, people just don't understand how to read data.

The end result is we now have people claiming the experts were wrong instead of understanding that most of the models were designed to help us prepare for the worst and give hospitals and government officials ideas on how to act. They were never intended to predict the actual number of deaths from them.

Exactly.

Another example of this is weather forecasting, where based on multiple factors you can have a % chance of something happening. If that doesn't happen than the meteorologist "lied" and "doesn't know what they're doing".

I also suspect that if this doesn't completely spiral out of control you'll see a Y2K hindsight effect, where the catastrophic scenarios are avoided because of increased attention and speed to remedy so people claim it to be a media driven hoax (which people are still claiming about corona now).

[Whole Truth]

other research includes
tocilizumab targeting IL-6
meplazumab targeting CD147

unless the convalescent plasma trials show strong activity, i wouldn't really bank on vaccines anytime soon.

if anyone is really interested, here is a summary about 1.5hrs long reviewing clinical trials that have been done for therapeutics, potential therapeutics, as well as the change in management for covid patients (shifting towards non-invasive ventilation strategies)

The Experience From Front-Line Leaders in China: Session 2: Strategies for Patient Management
https://www.chestnet.org/Guidelines-and-Resources/COVID-19/Advice-From-the-Front-Lines#ExperienceFromChinaWebinarPart1

There's still no vaccine for SARS and this was an epidemic in 2003.

also we've been making influenza vaccine for decades and we're still struggling with it.

Ever heard of Dr. Sebi?

He was a pathologist, biochemist and herbalist. He came to the U.S. from Honduras. Supposedly, he had been curing some of the most deadly diseases on the planet for almost 30 years. AIDS, cancer, diabetes, lupus and epilepsy are just a few of the ailments he has reversed.

In fact, he took the Attorney General of New York in a Supreme Court trial — and won over this claim.

Back in the 1980’s, Dr. Sebi ran a variety of ads in newspapers like the New York Post, stating: “AIDS has been cured by the Usha Research Institute, and we specialize in cures for Sickle Cell, Lupus, Blindness, Herpes, Cancer and others.” That ad caught the eye of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the agency subsequently sued Dr. Sebi for false advertisement and practicing without a license.

The judge presiding over the case requested that Dr. Sebi provide one witness for each disease he claimed to have cured. Sebi instead furnished 70 witnesses to support his argument — showing without a doubt that he did in truth heal all the diseases listed in the ad — the judge declared the doctor not guilty on all counts.

No surprise, Sebi died in police custody in Honduras.

What they're struggling with is not a cure but a way to make money.

[My Main Man]

Like the models?

What models are you referring to? Kids absolutely are affected by the virus, they just experience much milder symptoms generally. They are still carriers and, if school were to reopen now, would spread infection to faculty and family, essentially negating a large portion of the effects of social distancing we've already accomplished.

It seems like there are people who want to do a 2 steps forward, 1-2 steps back approach to social distancing/quarantine. We are doing a good job right now. It took too long to get here though and I don't want to go back and have to start over while another round of this peaks.

What science are you referring to? That’s all I asked.

We’re referring to virtually all known studies of virology.

Early testing was skewed because it’s based only on testing in clinics/hospitals. Younger people are generally affected less seriously than older people so they go to the hospital less, so there ends up being little to no testing done on young people. Since then, several people under the age of 10 have died from this, proving it affects young people. Hard numbers = science.

[Whole Truth]

If this virus had been circulating much longer than believed. How does that affect the charts & graphs being posted here?.

[Fairview4Life]

There's still no vaccine for SARS and this was an epidemic in 2003.

also we've been making influenza vaccine for decades and we're still struggling with it.

Ever heard of Dr. Sebi?

He was a pathologist, biochemist and herbalist. He came to the U.S. from Honduras. Supposedly, he had been curing some of the most deadly diseases on the planet for almost 30 years. AIDS, cancer, diabetes, lupus and epilepsy are just a few of the ailments he has reversed.

In fact, he took the Attorney General of New York in a Supreme Court trial — and won over this claim.

Back in the 1980’s, Dr. Sebi ran a variety of ads in newspapers like the New York Post, stating: “AIDS has been cured by the Usha Research Institute, and we specialize in cures for Sickle Cell, Lupus, Blindness, Herpes, Cancer and others.” That ad caught the eye of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the agency subsequently sued Dr. Sebi for false advertisement and practicing without a license.

The judge presiding over the case requested that Dr. Sebi provide one witness for each disease he claimed to have cured. Sebi instead furnished 70 witnesses to support his argument — showing without a doubt that he did in truth heal all the diseases listed in the ad — the judge declared the doctor not guilty on all counts.

No surprise, Sebi died in police custody in Honduras.

What they're struggling with is not a cure but a way to make money.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/quackery/dr-sebi-what-do-we-make-him

https://quackwatch.org/11Ind/sebi/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Bowman#Lawsuits

In 1987, the New York State Attorney General charged Bowman with two counts of practicing medicine without a license after he placed ads in local newspapers claiming to be able to cure AIDS. The Attorney General's Office sent undercover agents to his office to gain diagnoses and treatments for purported symptoms of disease. Bowman was acquitted because jurors said the tape recorded by the agents failed to show that Bowman had made a medical diagnosis of their purported conditions.[18]

In an effort to stop Bowman's false claims, the New York Assistant Attorney General for consumer fraud filed a civil suit against Bowman, his Ogun Herbal Research Institute, and other named businesses. It resulted in a consent agreement by which he was prohibited from making therapeutic claims for his products. He was also fined $900. The suit had ruled that the claims were unsubstantiated.

https://medium.com/@arahthequill/dr-sebi-was-either-a-complete-fool-or-a-complete-fraud-but-he-was-no-healer-a378dff54713

There were no witnesses, no triumphant grand stands, no “Anne Schneiderman’s” and certainly no victories to celebrate. Bowman requested to reach a resolution with the court to avoid the financial burden of additional petitioners and legal proceedings. He agreed to write retractions to all advertised claims of curing, treating and healing, refund all new and existing claimants and cease advertising, publicizing and distributing materials making these false claims. Following the loss, Bowman halted New York operations and relocated to the Los Angeles area, taking with him a distorted account of the Supreme Court proceedings in order to solidify his position in the global “Conscious Community”. This lie offered Bowman something that his honesty never could, and that something came with a hefty price tag.

[Whole Truth]

Since I probably won't get a response.

In my country we have 113 verified cases after a 2 week lockdown. During that lockdown, businesses of necessity were allowed to remain open.

This past week, they shut down & boarded up a grocery run by a Chinese man who had been in China during the outbreak. He wasn't adhering to the controlled groups & spacing regulations either. Now tested positive for the virus. I can't begin to imagine the amount of people exposed in this grocery. This not factoring we recently held Carnival & our dear leader was letting infected Cruise ships dock while no other country would.

Yet, after a 2 week lockdown, we have 113 verified cases with 70+ of those being imported back, infected.

[dhsilv2]

No but your company is helping make packaging . WWE is in no way shape or form essential for any human function. It's a pandemic.

It requires a lot of people to put on a show even with no crowd. And puts at risk anyone who works at hotels or food service for them, places that are actually required.

Edit: Sorry if this sounded harsh but like....I'm a fan and its just not essential. MMA can't even happen and its just a strange/impossible claim to make that its necessary, ESPN has people taping in their house.

Well, and again I'm somewhat playing devils advocate but mental health is important and we do have to address opening things back up and likely we need to do it slowly. Having 50 people fake fight to entertain people in a closed of area doesn't seem like the most dangerous way to do it. I certainly hope we don't go from 0 to 100 when we start to reopen things and in that transition...why not wrestling?

Mind you my first counter is florida is nowhere near reopening, they're still not at their peak.

Sure, mental health is important. Open everything then, we need entertainment darn it! What can it hurt? Oh wait, there's a pandemic and it puts actual people at risk who are essential.

There has to be a middle ground and there must be on on the way back to normal, we can't just go from all closed to all open. This is not devils advocate...it's just sensible. Is a lower risk group putting on a show with minimal contact really the end of the world? Frankly don't know...

[dhsilv2]

If this virus had been circulating much longer than believed. How does that affect the charts & graphs being posted here?.

It would make what we saw in NYC seem pretty weird and that we didn't have a spike like we saw their before hand also very strange to say the last. Basically, I don't think there's any grounds for "much earlier".

[bondom34]

Well, and again I'm somewhat playing devils advocate but mental health is important and we do have to address opening things back up and likely we need to do it slowly. Having 50 people fake fight to entertain people in a closed of area doesn't seem like the most dangerous way to do it. I certainly hope we don't go from 0 to 100 when we start to reopen things and in that transition...why not wrestling?

Mind you my first counter is florida is nowhere near reopening, they're still not at their peak.

Sure, mental health is important. Open everything then, we need entertainment darn it! What can it hurt? Oh wait, there's a pandemic and it puts actual people at risk who are essential.

There has to be a middle ground and there must be on on the way back to normal, we can't just go from all closed to all open. This is not devils advocate...it's just sensible. Is a lower risk group putting on a show with minimal contact really the end of the world? Frankly don't know...

I'm sure there's no risk in putting on a show with a large production crew when you're going to need housing and food and put people giving you those services at risk.

"Oh hey your food's been contaminated because we needed WWE" sounds very essential.

I'll tell you what, google "Linda McMahon" right now and check twitter. That'll give an idea. I didn't even know that part at first but you absolutely should know. Putting people at risk so we can be entertained is a great idea to stop a pandemic.

[Whole Truth]

also we've been making influenza vaccine for decades and we're still struggling with it.

Ever heard of Dr. Sebi?

He was a pathologist, biochemist and herbalist. He came to the U.S. from Honduras. Supposedly, he had been curing some of the most deadly diseases on the planet for almost 30 years. AIDS, cancer, diabetes, lupus and epilepsy are just a few of the ailments he has reversed.

In fact, he took the Attorney General of New York in a Supreme Court trial — and won over this claim.

Back in the 1980’s, Dr. Sebi ran a variety of ads in newspapers like the New York Post, stating: “AIDS has been cured by the Usha Research Institute, and we specialize in cures for Sickle Cell, Lupus, Blindness, Herpes, Cancer and others.” That ad caught the eye of the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) and the agency subsequently sued Dr. Sebi for false advertisement and practicing without a license.

The judge presiding over the case requested that Dr. Sebi provide one witness for each disease he claimed to have cured. Sebi instead furnished 70 witnesses to support his argument — showing without a doubt that he did in truth heal all the diseases listed in the ad — the judge declared the doctor not guilty on all counts.

No surprise, Sebi died in police custody in Honduras.

What they're struggling with is not a cure but a way to make money.

https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/quackery/dr-sebi-what-do-we-make-him

https://quackwatch.org/11Ind/sebi/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfredo_Bowman#Lawsuits

In 1987, the New York State Attorney General charged Bowman with two counts of practicing medicine without a license after he placed ads in local newspapers claiming to be able to cure AIDS. The Attorney General's Office sent undercover agents to his office to gain diagnoses and treatments for purported symptoms of disease. Bowman was acquitted because jurors said the tape recorded by the agents failed to show that Bowman had made a medical diagnosis of their purported conditions.[18]

In an effort to stop Bowman's false claims, the New York Assistant Attorney General for consumer fraud filed a civil suit against Bowman, his Ogun Herbal Research Institute, and other named businesses. It resulted in a consent agreement by which he was prohibited from making therapeutic claims for his products. He was also fined $900. The suit had ruled that the claims were unsubstantiated.

https://medium.com/@arahthequill/dr-sebi-was-either-a-complete-fool-or-a-complete-fraud-but-he-was-no-healer-a378dff54713

There were no witnesses, no triumphant grand stands, no “Anne Schneiderman’s” and certainly no victories to celebrate. Bowman requested to reach a resolution with the court to avoid the financial burden of additional petitioners and legal proceedings. He agreed to write retractions to all advertised claims of curing, treating and healing, refund all new and existing claimants and cease advertising, publicizing and distributing materials making these false claims. Following the loss, Bowman halted New York operations and relocated to the Los Angeles area, taking with him a distorted account of the Supreme Court proceedings in order to solidify his position in the global “Conscious Community”. This lie offered Bowman something that his honesty never could, and that something came with a hefty price tag.

I've never seen supposedly credible news outlets who we're supposed to trust lie & slander anyone before. A natural herbalist not just supposedly debunked but labelled a quack. (I have conflicting information but will leave it with your links as to not derail this topic).

Dr. Sebi's name was back in the news because California rapper Nipsey Hussle was shot to death while planning a documentary of the herbalist.

[dhsilv2]

Sure, mental health is important. Open everything then, we need entertainment darn it! What can it hurt? Oh wait, there's a pandemic and it puts actual people at risk who are essential.

There has to be a middle ground and there must be on on the way back to normal, we can't just go from all closed to all open. This is not devils advocate...it's just sensible. Is a lower risk group putting on a show with minimal contact really the end of the world? Frankly don't know...

I'm sure there's no risk in putting on a show with a large production crew when you're going to need housing and food and put people giving you those services at risk.

"Oh hey your food's been contaminated because we needed WWE" sounds very essential.

I'll tell you what, google "Linda McMahon" right now and check twitter. That'll give an idea. I didn't even know that part at first but you absolutely should know. Putting people at risk so we can be entertained is a great idea to stop a pandemic.

People have to get sick...that's part of stopping this.

Not sure what I'm supposed to see online about the Mcmahon's....

[bondom34]

There has to be a middle ground and there must be on on the way back to normal, we can't just go from all closed to all open. This is not devils advocate...it's just sensible. Is a lower risk group putting on a show with minimal contact really the end of the world? Frankly don't know...

I'm sure there's no risk in putting on a show with a large production crew when you're going to need housing and food and put people giving you those services at risk.

"Oh hey your food's been contaminated because we needed WWE" sounds very essential.

I'll tell you what, google "Linda McMahon" right now and check twitter. That'll give an idea. I didn't even know that part at first but you absolutely should know. Putting people at risk so we can be entertained is a great idea to stop a pandemic.

People have to get sick...that's part of stopping this.

Not sure what I'm supposed to see online about the Mcmahon's....

I'm not getting this thread locked for being political, try google again. Try Linda Mcmahon donation.

And no, the entire point is to try to limit people getting sick.

[Whole Truth]

If this virus had been circulating much longer than believed. How does that affect the charts & graphs being posted here?.

It would make what we saw in NYC seem pretty weird and that we didn't have a spike like we saw their before hand also very strange to say the last. Basically, I don't think there's any grounds for "much earlier".

I've had the virus. possibly twice, if it wasn't dormant. My first symptoms were before Carnival from a flu that came from 2 school kids. That was around late January, early February. Estimating from my circle of contact, it was in our country since mid January roughly, possibly earlier.

What do you consider much earlier?.

The incubation period is supposedly 2 weeks. Our first case was reported after Carnival more than a month from my exposure. Just from my circle of contact alone, I can state factually that far more people were exposed to it than the 113 reported with 70 of those cases returning citizens. Then when you consider the snowball affect of infection more than I can comprehend outside a rough estimate there's no way our infected total should be stagnant at around 100 people.

[dhsilv2]

I'm sure there's no risk in putting on a show with a large production crew when you're going to need housing and food and put people giving you those services at risk.

"Oh hey your food's been contaminated because we needed WWE" sounds very essential.

I'll tell you what, google "Linda McMahon" right now and check twitter. That'll give an idea. I didn't even know that part at first but you absolutely should know. Putting people at risk so we can be entertained is a great idea to stop a pandemic.

People have to get sick...that's part of stopping this.

Not sure what I'm supposed to see online about the Mcmahon's....

I'm not getting this thread locked for being political, try google again. Try Linda Mcmahon donation.

And no, the entire point is to try to limit people getting sick.

Limiting people getting sick? No, it's the spread out sickness over a longer time horizon to allowed medical staff to better support it and to avoid AT RISK people from getting it until hurt immunity or a vaccine. No where in this is it about avoiding it all together.

If you're discussing her connections with the administration, everyone knows about that...might as well say the sky is blue. Hardly news.

[OkcSinceSGA]

Read on Twitter

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/04/14/state-department-cables-warned-safety-issues-wuhan-lab-studying-bat-coronaviruses/

Maybe since it's from WAPO and not a conspiracy journal Dirk will allow this?

Last two weeks a TON of pieces have circulated questioning the bat soup and wet market claim.

[bondom34]

People have to get sick...that's part of stopping this.

Not sure what I'm supposed to see online about the Mcmahon's....

I'm not getting this thread locked for being political, try google again. Try Linda Mcmahon donation.

And no, the entire point is to try to limit people getting sick.

Limiting people getting sick? No, it's the spread out sickness over a longer time horizon to allowed medical staff to better support it and to avoid AT RISK people from getting it until hurt immunity or a vaccine. No where in this is it about avoiding it all together.

If you're discussing her connections with the administration, everyone knows about that...might as well say the sky is blue. Hardly news.

You're right, letting them infect people so we can have wwe and make Vince money is exactly what we need in a pandemic.

Was just thinking next time I'm hungry I'll watch wrestling, that'll help.

Edit: Alright I'm out. If you all want to argue wrestling is essential for for it. This is why this thing won't go away, we have the attention span of a five year old and think we "need" everything.

[Catchall]

Florida may end up leading the charge in re-opening things, so he may be in luck to have more to do.

Read on Twitter

It depends on what the goal is.

If the goal is to "flatten the curve" to prevent local hospital resources from being overwhelmed, then this can be solved simply by increasing hospital resources in areas with high rates of infection. Hence, those who need hospitalization and intensive care can receive it without impediment.

If the goal is to prevent the majority of people from getting infected in the first place, then yes, you'd have to maintain measures for social distancing until there is an effective treatment. This could be a year or more away.

Originally, the goal was just to flatten the curve in order to prevent hospitals from being overrun with patients.

Flattening the curve may be the goal on a national level, but my goal is making sure my loved ones and I stay alive. I think this is a common sentiment. Thankfully, they mostly coincide with each other.

If you're serious about protecting your family and taking measures to prevent them from being exposed to this and similar viruses, you might consider moving out of a densely populated urban area.

Example:

Number of people hospitalized for Covid19 in Utah: 200 (state population 3.1 million)
Cases per 1 million population: 70

Number of people hospitalized for Covid19 in Montana: 21 (state population 1.1 million)
Cases per 1 million population: 20

Number of people hospitalized for Covid19 in New York: 19,000 (state population 19.4 million)
Cases per 1 million population: 980

In other words, for every confirmed case of covid in Utah per 1 million population, there are 14 cases in New York--the infection rate is currently 14x higher in New York. There are also a lot of other cases that have not be confirmed.

In addition to population density, there are other factors such as international travel from high-risk areas like China and India that increase risk to urban areas.

Otherwise, I think the CDC and NIH have already conceded that the majority of the population will be exposed to the virus within the next 12 - 18 months, that roughly 8% or 9% of cases will require hospitalization, that 9% or 10% of those cases that require hospitalization will pass away, and that ~80% of fatalities will be borne by people with pre-existing risk factors such as advanced age and obesity/diabetes.

I expect that each industry will resume business, one by one, with semi-permanent measures in place to promote social distancing. There's going to be a huge emphasis on telecommuting and wearing masks in public, but it isn't clear what other precautions exist.