Rapinoe vs Green... who you got?

[HEKTOR]

A men's 5 setter can go on for 5 hours. This is considerably longer than, say, a basketball game, and it's a problem.

I'm not sure I agree that it's a problem in general. Perhaps the problem is the extremely long 5-setters for reasons both of us brought up. I think making the 5th set a tie-breaker is a good idea instead of the "win by 2 games" rule. That can speed things up and can help avoid the Isner-Mahut 3 day match or whatever it was.

I don't know if you realized but during Social Distancing last summer they experimented with novel ways of playing matches in a couple events. The recurring theme: How can we make this thing faster so that people will watch it?

They did, but I'm not sure it was just because not enough people are watching. I think it was done for other reasons. Scheduling, etc.

I actually have another issue with the 5 setter that I don't expect most to agree with me on:

I'd rather the game didn't devolve into a war of attrition.

While I understand that it's admirable when a guy can sustain his body for longer, I think the possibility of winning by wearing your opponent out tends to lead to play that reminds a little bit of a stalemate, and likely disincentives netplay.

I don't think 5 setters are always so grueling though. But I think a part of it is you want to see if someone can sustain that high level of play for longer.

of course, when I say that they "can do the same things" I don't mean they would be competitive, but that they are actually showing very similar technical moves with just less power and mobility, something that doesn't affect dramatically the viewing experience.
Arguably it makes it better, allowing more variety in the playstyle.
From a spectator standpoint, it's the same sport as the key wow factors, providing most of the entertainment value are the same.
For basketball it's not the same, the explosiveness of the moves, the verticality, the physicality of the game is all but lost.
This is something that penalizes the female version of all contact sports, in my view, but in basketball the vertical component is so dominant that the experience gets ruined.
Volleyball is another sport that is very enjoyable in the female version as well, but they've been smart enough to lower the net or it would give the same feeling as basketball.

I agree, not to mention I think what most people find entertaining about tennis is the longer rallies that involve a greater deal of athleticism, shot-making, and creativity. Some of this is lost on the men's side when you have players who simply rely on sheer power and it is in their interest to shorten point whenever they can. I think this is part of the reason why women's tennis has become more popular because most of the women can't shorten the points as easily as the men and thus, are forced to play more strategic tennis which can be quite entertaining. I used to model a lot of my strategy around Martina Hingis as her tennis IQ was off the charts and more or less had to be considering her physical limitations especially when going up against the likes of the Williams' sisters.

[BK_2020]

Women players will literally die if they had to play a 2 week tournament of 5 setters, except they won't because their forearms and elbows will get injured before they die so 50% of the matches will end in forfeits and the other 50% end with 6-0, 6-1, 6-0 final scores.

[bebopdeluxe]

They're both kind of right. Draymond was addressing the futility of just complaining over wages and not holistically building up the brand of women's soccer so that you can get to the point where the revenue justifies higher wages. Rapinoe was saying that's what she's been advocating for all along and Draymond is ignorant. Which she herself absolutely has been doing, but unfortunately many of the people demanding equal pay for women's sports have not bothered to take the effort to fully understand the situation and do just say ignorant things.

Draymond made a mistake in not acknowledging the members of the USWNT who have made informed arguments in supporting the financial growth of the sport, and Megan should have realized that just because she knows what she's talking about doesn't mean that everyone who wants to see equality of pay in sports does.

I read the tweets and they both made some good points. Green was listing ways Women's USA soccer can raise attention and therefore revenue for women's soccer; however, I believe Green is unaware of what team usa has done to gain the attention. And while I partial agree with Megan that the reason why women's soccer has gotten the funding it deserves is because of male dominated society, I do believe just because you throw money at something doesn't mean that it is just going to grow. Key example is the WNBA. At some point the product has to draw revenue it self. But I just hate how this makes Green look like a woman hater, the debate is truly about how to get attention for women's soccer. They are both on the same side.

Yeah if we want sustainable viewership for women's sports we can't do some half assed thing where we just throw extra money at them for a few years. There needs to be a cultivation of fandom for the sports, and I still that starts with targeting young people and developing strategies to get them interested in watching women's soccer or basketball. And then you also have to be patient and realize that it isn't going to change overnight, we probably need a few generations of slowly growing fans for women's sports.

This is one of the best posts of the thread, and I think gets at what Rapinoe is saying. It is not about salaries - it is about grass-roots investment in women's sports, as well as a cultural shift where women's sports receives both more funding and support, as well as an acknowlegement that girls need to be encouraged from early childhood that the sky is the limit for them, that they can do whatever they put their minds to, and that existing sexist beliefs about what is "appropriate" for them to pursue in life need to be brought out in the light and destroyed. As with the racial issues we have in our country, this won't happen overnight. It will take true generational change - as older people set in their racist/sexist ways die off (or, more hopefully, renounce those racist/sexist views) and girls see not only structures in place to pursue their dreams, as well as ENCOURAGEMENT of those dreams - as opposed to messaging that they are not biologically wired to be "competative" or that some areas of sports (or career pursuits) are more appropriate for boys/men.

It will take time...but it starts with the acknowedgment that sexism and an imbalanced playing exists in the first place.

[Rainwater]

Megan Rapinoe is mad because Draymond basically told her and other female athletes to shut up and dribble....

Actually, the women are advocating for equal pay and investment for female athletes and Draymond has repeatedly responded that they should stop complaining.

What do you think? Is rapinoe and other female athletes advocating for simular pay and invest right or is Draymond right and the market of supply and demand should decide?

Snaquille Oatmeal would like for me to revise my OP to better relate the info between Green and Rapinoe. Instead of that I'll just add his take to my OP

"You should definitely revise your post and add that the reason why Meghan is clapping back at Green is because Green is saying that he is tired of women in sports complaining about equal pay AND they should do X, Y, and Z instead and Meghan is replying by educating Green on the fact that they have already been doing X, Y, and Z and they get ignored and dismissed and uses his post as an example."

After reading the tweets I think you are a trash poster for making Draymond look like woman hater. They were basically arguing how to make women's soccer better. They are on the same side.

Trash poster hunh?
I"m not trying to make Dray look like anything. Read an article, started a thread.
Don't worry though; I'll make no effort to change your mind

Other than the fact you provided very little detail of Dray's argument, I really don't know where you got Dray told Megan to basically shut up and dribble. If anything Dray told Megan to be more proactive in the marketing of women's soccer. I'm sorry for the personal attack, I just found what was posted very misleading.

[nshidbaby]

There were a lot of mods injecting their 2 cents without much initial poster drama. Hmm...interesting.

I've heard both sides, Green and Rapinoe. This issue is not complicated. Men and women are not equal.

Equal pay "deserves" equal outcomes. Some people get paid for similar work but I would argue most would agree with the aforementioned sentiment. So why is this such an issue with women and sports? It's simple. Many women argue with emotions and do not expect fairness. They expect men to supplant their lifestyles.

Many women do not even watch sports, less alone the NBA. Why would someone expect men to watch the WNBA if most women do not watch it?

Draymond is to be taken generally, same as Rapinoe. Generally, the women are not "building" much of a brand for themselves or their sports. They are essentially "complaining" and it should be called out. It doesn't help women to baby them. Tell them the truth. The men who think they are protecting women and essentially baby them contribute heavily to this equal pay rhetoric.

[cornchip]

They're both kind of right. Draymond was addressing the futility of just complaining over wages and not holistically building up the brand of women's soccer so that you can get to the point where the revenue justifies higher wages. Rapinoe was saying that's what she's been advocating for all along and Draymond is ignorant. Which she herself absolutely has been doing, but unfortunately many of the people demanding equal pay for women's sports have not bothered to take the effort to fully understand the situation and do just say ignorant things.

Draymond made a mistake in not acknowledging the members of the USWNT who have made informed arguments in supporting the financial growth of the sport, and Megan should have realized that just because she knows what she's talking about doesn't mean that everyone who wants to see equality of pay in sports does.

I read the tweets and they both made some good points. Green was listing ways Women's USA soccer can raise attention and therefore revenue for women's soccer; however, I believe Green is unaware of what team usa has done to gain the attention. And while I partial agree with Megan that the reason why women's soccer has gotten the funding it deserves is because of male dominated society, I do believe just because you throw money at something doesn't mean that it is just going to grow. Key example is the WNBA. At some point the product has to draw revenue it self. But I just hate how this makes Green look like a woman hater, the debate is truly about how to get attention for women's soccer. They are both on the same side.

Yeah if we want sustainable viewership for women's sports we can't do some half assed thing where we just throw extra money at them for a few years. There needs to be a cultivation of fandom for the sports, and I still that starts with targeting young people and developing strategies to get them interested in watching women's soccer or basketball. And then you also have to be patient and realize that it isn't going to change overnight, we probably need a few generations of slowly growing fans for women's sports.

This is a good point and I think frames both Draymond and Rapinoe's arguments in the context of the WNBA. They both just do a terrible job at framing it.

I think the WNBA has to decide whether it wants to continue to try to truly be on level with the NBA or it's own niche sport.

I know it WANTS to be on level with the NBA like Women's Tennis and MMA are relatively with their male counterparts. But the NBA is not going to lease their arenas during it's regular season and let them in on their TV deals. Why would they compete against themselves?

The NBA truly doesn't care about the WNBA. They say they do but their not going to do everything it takes to make them successful at the detriment if their main league. The NBA cares about competing with the NFL. Nearly everything they do...from catering to younger fanbases, player empowerment, not regulating advantages for big markets is aimed at the NFL. And as the NFL encroaches more on the market with international and weekday games, its only going to heat up. They're not going to tie a (at this point) dead weight behind it's back for that fight.

Even if the NBA goes all in, the natural aethestics of basketball between the men and women's game are so different, it may still not completely work.

So that's where the niche part comes in. Sometimes it's good to be small and build out your fanbase. A very little talked about league is the LPGA. It's niche, little publicity...but they have a RABID fanbase that supports the sport and its players do very well. You could follow the LPGA and not even know or care about the men's PGA. To me, that's a better model for the WNBA.

[KGtabake]

There are only two watchable women's team sports: Volleyball and water polo.
Basketball and soccer are unwatchable.
Considering the fact that these two are the most popular sports in the world(we leave cricket aside since it's popular only in -ex colonies of Britain like India or Pakistan) and women cannot create profit due to the lack of quality (and therefore lack of interest) i see no reason why we should talk about this all the time.

[Texas Chuck]

There were a lot of mods injecting their 2 cents without much initial poster drama. Hmm...interesting.
.

I think there is a chance this refers in part to me.

Not actually a mod of this forum, but I will say that I view the primary job of moderators as trying to facilitate quality discussion. So on boards I do moderate when I see topics that have the potential to get sideways me or another mod typically try and get in front of it rather than having to punish people after the fact--which is the worst part of the job.

It feels like you mean the above as a criticism which is fine, but I would argue that's the type of things mods should be doing, is being proactive rather than reactive. And you will see the GB Mods typically doing a great job of this because they definitely have a difficult job policing all of these topics.

And if they interject and then there is little to no drama, feels like they did a damn fine bit of moderating, no?

[Johnlac1]

the amount of hate woman get is embodied in this thread. its obvious a large segment of the population has insecurities they cant adequately deal with so they take it out on women by bashing them.

yes, because criticizing women is off limits, right? Whatever they demand should be accepted?
Maybe Megan Rapinoe is an awful person who should shut her mouth and be glad she can make money playing a sport few people want to watch.
Even if I liked Rapinoe, there's no law that says people have to watch certain sports whether it's men or women playing the sport. There are many spoiled athletes from both sexes. They should all be glad that they're living in a world where they can make a living or get wealthy from bouncing, throwing, kicking, or hitting a ball or some other object.

[nshidbaby]

There were a lot of mods injecting their 2 cents without much initial poster drama. Hmm...interesting.
.

I think there is a chance this refers in part to me.

Not actually a mod of this forum, but I will say that I view the primary job of moderators as trying to facilitate quality discussion. So on boards I do moderate when I see topics that have the potential to get sideways me or another mod typically try and get in front of it rather than having to punish people after the fact--which is the worst part of the job.

It feels like you mean the above as a criticism which is fine, but I would argue that's the type of things mods should be doing, is being proactive rather than reactive. And you will see the GB Mods typically doing a great job of this because they definitely have a difficult job policing all of these topics.

And if they interject and then there is little to no drama, feels like they did a damn fine bit of moderating, no?

Moderation is necessary. It would be nice if the moderators were undercover somehow. That would be interesting.

I am not choosing sides, just want better outcomes. For the first years of the wnba, I watched all the way to the championship. IMHO, women's sports should be targeting men as the audience. There are many ways to do this and it should be explored.

[Parataxis]

I mean, Rapinoe's national teams are vastly superior to the US Men's national team.

A lot of the issue of popularity comes down to investment. If women's sport had the history of investment and promotion that mens' sport had had over the past century, there's no reason to believe it wouldn't be just as popular.

[Johnlac1]

I'd start with her point that its not just the job of the marginalized to fighting against it. Yes, absolutely women athletes have a responsibility if they want more pay to help to figure out new revenue streams, lots of female athletes including her not only acknowledge that but having been fighting those fights for years. Worth noting that the UWNT generated more revenue than the men in her sport and still got paid less.... Same thing has happened in tennis where they tried to use the 3 sets versus 5 argument and Serena and others were like okay we'll play 5 now pay us--which did eventually happen.

Only because the USWNT rejected the same offer that the Men accepted. There's a reason their claim was immediately dismissed by the judge. While I can respect and agree with a lot of what she said in this specific incident, the USWNT's obsession with trying to paint their fight as one against sexism only hurts their/her credibility.

the USA women soccer team is much better than the USA men soccer team which is a joke these days, the Women team should be paid more

Maybe you should read a book about basic economics.
For one thing claiming the women's soccer team is much better than the men's is most likely ludicrous, but that's beside the point.
People don't want to watch female soccer. I don't like to watch any soccer, men or women's. If it was up to me, all soccer players would have to get honest jobs when they came of age.
But that's beside the point too. Because a few billion people love to watch soccer...men's soccer. So male soccer players get paid a large chunk of money to kick a ball around a field for a few hours while scoring every other month.
Try to overcome your wokeness and understand that nobody deserves to be supported by society just because they perform a certain function. The function has to make other people happy to support that function. If they don't....tough.
So blaming sexism and misogyny for lack of interest in female sports is ridiculous. Why don't you ask your female woke feminist friends why they don't support women's sports.

[Johnlac1]

The male egos are fragile in this thread. And the self awareness is limited at best.

The wokerati are more fragile and definitely more ignorant.

[Johnlac1]

Shoould male Supermodels, who no one recognize get the same money as the female Supermodels who have a way bigger reach and following like Adriana Lima etc. ?

They get paid way less, which bothers no one and rightfully so. If your league makes way less money, then its obvious that there would be no equal pay

Great point. The wokerati stick their heads in the ground and refuse to acknowledge that it's basic economics. If what you do makes people want to pay you a lot of money, good for you. If they don't, tough luck.

[Schiltzenberger]

1. The women were offered the exact same deal as the men, they rejected it. The men's deal is purely incentive based, they got paid only if they played. The women didn't like it, they wanted guaranteed salaries whether they played or not. They also got a long list of extras, including maternity leave, guaranteed amount of games etc.

2. Since those deals, the women have been paid around $24mil, compared to the men's $20mil..... per game the women have earned about $220k/game to the men's $200k/game. They actually negotiated a better deal for themselves than the men got.

3. The whole underpaid thing is due to the men getting the higher incentives for wins draws and losses.... the women want the same incentives as the men, even though they negotiated for lower incentives to get the guaranteed salaries.

5. That is why the claim was laughed out of court, it is ridiculous. They want the big incentives that the men get, but they don't want to lose all the extra stuff they already have. The women have earned more, and been paid more, than the men already. The whole story is a joke really.

[Johnlac1]

Lotta toxic masculinity up in here.

Yeah, that's the reason...can't possibly be any other.

[Johnlac1]

Maybe before you make some blanket statement about girls not being as keen on "competitive competition" as boys (I found that particularly rich given that I will be be driving my daughter to her U12 travel softball practice later today), you provide research data that backs up the assertion that girls aren't as competitive as boys. Now, if you want to say that girls are raised in a different way - by parents, teachers and society at large - to not be as "competitive" as boys, I am all ears. But there is no "compitition chromosome" that boys have that girls don't.

This ties PERFECTLY into what Rapinoe is saying, by the way. A thought process that starts with an assumption that girls are not as "competitive" as boys is exactly what allows NCAA administrators to book 2nd-tier workout facilities for the womens' tournament teams...hell - why do they need excellent fitness facilities, anyway? There are a couple of ellipticals, some free weights - that should be enough for THEM, right?
I worked in the investment industry for ove
r 30 years. I would say the percentage of women in the investment field - for much of my time was, at best, 10 percent. And let me ask you something - do you think that an aggressive, hard-charging 25-year old woman was viewed EXACTLY the same as a 25-year old man? Huh?

And what blanket statement are you referring to, again? Its not my fault you or him appear to suffer from reading comprehension.

I repeatedly made it clear to you and anyone else that cared to analyze my words that I was making a generalizing statement that all boys are inherently more competitive. And this is due in large part to the biological difference between that both genders have. The testosterone found in boys is universally cited as the source for why males (even at a young) typical engage in more aggressive behavior tendencies. These aggressive behavioral patterns of course lending themselves well to physical competition IE Sports. Other chemicals that also play a role are serotonin. I of course left this part out because I had foolishly been under the impression most people understood the biological differences between male and female, and the roles chemicals play in developing not just their bodies, but brains. But I of course was wrong.

If you can't understand simple biology, that's a problem you need to address for yourself and maybe get up to speed on how the human body works. You seem to be bothered by the fact that boys and girls are just inherently different. And for whatever reason seem to take it as an attack on the female gender, as evident by you attempting to twist my words into something I never said. Again, perhaps another problem you need to address.

Nice try but the wokerati are ignorant of basic biology and economics. Many of them really believe men and women are inherently physically and mentally equal and only sexist men force women to accept lower pay and/or positions in society. You're beating your head against a rock trying to convince these people.

[Pharmcat]

Only because the USWNT rejected the same offer that the Men accepted. There's a reason their claim was immediately dismissed by the judge. While I can respect and agree with a lot of what she said in this specific incident, the USWNT's obsession with trying to paint their fight as one against sexism only hurts their/her credibility.

the USA women soccer team is much better than the USA men soccer team which is a joke these days, the Women team should be paid more

Maybe you should read a book about basic economics.
For one thing claiming the women's soccer team is much better than the men's is most likely ludicrous, but that's beside the point.
People don't want to watch female soccer. I don't like to watch any soccer, men or women's. If it was up to me, all soccer players would have to get honest jobs when they came of age.
But that's beside the point too. Because a few billion people love to watch soccer...men's soccer. So male soccer players get paid a large chunk of money to kick a ball around a field for a few hours while scoring every other month.
Try to overcome your wokeness and understand that nobody deserves to be supported by society just because they perform a certain function. The function has to make other people happy to support that function. If they don't....tough.
So blaming sexism and misogyny for lack of interest in female sports is ridiculous. Why don't you ask your female woke feminist friends why they don't support women's sports.

In terms of U.S. viewership for the 2018 Men's World Cup final and the 2019 Women's World Cup final, the former drew in 11.4 million viewers compared to the latter's 14.3 million.

awk

[Johnlac1]

As a latino (soccer fan!) who grew up in the US and since returned home and become a father-

-Gender roles exist, but if you cant distinguish between biological differences and cultural indoctrination then you cant identify what we control and what we dont. Before puberty hormones havent really kicked in and the roles are almost 100% cultural. Ages 3-8, my daughter was more physically dominant than most of the boys in her class, my boys could never say the same

Having grown up in 80s america and raising my kids in 2010s chile, the level of sexism here this past decade is bad for 80s US standards. Near our house a neighbor built a skating rink in his lot outside his house, and started to coach a rink hockey team (old school roller skates, not roller blades, played mixed gender at the youth level). I started taking my kids, half the team left half way through the season because the coach would yell "you run like girls!" at the BOYS who were slacking ... obviously most of the players that left were girls, even though he was yelling at the (bad) boys. My daughter kept going but eventually went to figure skating where she wasnt surrounded by men and boys who were constantly singling her our for her gender. BTW, the team eventually joined the formal league circuit and achieved some regional success, several players got scholarships and professional gigs- the biggest star was the only other girl on the team, shes a fantastic scorer and tough as nails and barring injury will probably be a pro in europe. if that option didnt exist maybe her parents would encourage to focus on school instead..

-The people who say supply and demand, basic economics! have a fair point but the same logic dictates that if there is a weak market for something few will dedicate themselves to it. Paying players more would undoubtedly make it more worthwhile for more women to dedicate themselves to sports. If male models got paid more, there would be more men dedicating themselves to modelling, and if you could make more money playing team sports than being pretty more women would try that. The US soccer situation is kind of the perfect example of this. Womens soccer has a level of support and funding basically no other country has, so comparatively the US has the best womens soccer program ever. The mens team, despite getting MORE support and funding than the womens team is still comparatively weaker even than other national teams with less support and funding, because even though they have a better talent pool and infrastructure than honduras there are CULTURAL ROLES keeping the best US athletes from playing soccer and making hondurans soccer mad. Women athletes are asking for investment just like any other interest group, be it a robotics firm or a rural internet program- not free money just because, but money to stimulate a particular area where they believe a market exists. The supply and demand argument can be used to say the market doesnt exist, but it doesnt really address their point which is that the market needs to be created, and it certainly doesnt make them ignorant of economics to make that argument.

-I dont know the specifics of the USWNT contract negotiations, but for the guy who is constantly insulting everyone to blame FIBA--- FIBA is the global basketball federation, FI F A is the global football federation. So FIBA definitely has nothing to do with it. FIFA does dish out some ad/tv money out to federations but AFAIK each federation, and there are bonuses for teams that advance rounds, 8th, 7th, 6th etc.. but each federation decides internally how to administer that money, and the players usually negotiate a cut of the bonus with the federation- its very well possible the men get an equal cut of a bigger pie and that means more money for them. IMO the ideal is they should be paid equally- regardless of performance- because a national team is an honor not a full time job, but if the argument for decades prior for men being paid more was due to their performance and marketing draw, then its only logical that the USWNT women given their performance should be paid more and their division given more resources. I read all 10 pages hoping somebody would post the actual details beyond saying "hey, thats what they agreed to!". That they agreed to it doesnt make it right, often you have to agree to less than ideal terms because you dont have the leverage, I dont see anything wrong with testing your leverage after the fact, if theyre not successful its because they didnt have enough...

"Paying players more would undoubtedly make it more worthwhile for more women to dedicate themselves to sports."

What???!!! You know this how? And if it produced better female athletes, and people still didn't like to watch them in large numbers, what then?

[Johnlac1]

So predictable. The GB doesn't get it...just like Draymond Green doesn't get it.

The difference is facilities between the men and women basketball players for the NCAA tournament is all you need to know about how deeply embedding sexism is. And just like racism, people don't appreciate being dragged out in the light.

I don't think that Rapinoe is saying female athletes should be paid the same. She is saying that their efforts and commitment should be given equal respect. The example I gave above is Exhibit A of what she is talking about.

No, she said something else before but that’s another story.

As for “equal respect,” why don’t women watch women’s sports en masse and make women’s sports profitable? There’s an elephant in the room and Rapinoe and her ilk who live in the Just World Fallacy world know the elephant is there but want to pretend it’s not and continue to live in a make-believe world.

Yes, the woke believe just because a male makes a living doing something, females should make the equal amount. The world doesn't work that way.
I hate Madonna's music, but she's worth almost a billion bucks. Because enough people liked to listen to her garbage. There are literally thousands of male musicians I would pay money to watch who haven't made a billion dollars and live very modest lives.
That's the way the world works. You don't get paid a certain amount of money because you think YOU! deserve it. Somebody else has to think you deserve it.