76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[Murray_17]

Point of clarification because the wrong point has been repeated multiple times. Ben Simmons is working with mental health therapists through the NBAPA. He’s refused to see the Sixers therapist because I’m guessing it’s part of his paranoia that he can’t trust the team doctors. This will eventually go to arbitration because it’s just a cycle that’s going to keep repeating itself.

Can the NBAPA therapists not pass on their conclusions to the Philly team doctors? I get why Simmons would not trust anyone that works for the 76ers, but this seems sloppy to me.

From Philly's standpoint, it is incredibly rash and curious that they would resort to fining him so quickly. No one would have even brought this up had they not leaked that they were frustrated. The team is winning, and they've committed to holding him to his contract for 4 years. Apparently they can't even wait a couple of weeks.

This is the important issue. Yeah, mental health professionals don't need to share the entire diagnosos of a patient, for example " he has schizophrenia because he has a maternal trauma because of family violence" (just inventing stuff). But for the report to work the professional has to share his diagnosis with the team "yeah, he has schizophrenia and should not be playing"


Why? because if the teams just had to trust the diagnosis the player give them then everyone could create whatever injury when he doesn't want to play.

I'm trying to not doubt Ben, but if he cannot even come with a diagnosis then the team has all the cards to win a possible arbitration, the fact he is getting treated by the professionals of NBPA isn't relevant until we know those professionals believe Ben effectively should not be playing.

[Quattro]

Morey and Simmons deserve each other.

[Nuntius]

Point of clarification because the wrong point has been repeated multiple times. Ben Simmons is working with mental health therapists through the NBAPA. He’s refused to see the Sixers therapist because I’m guessing it’s part of his paranoia that he can’t trust the team doctors. This will eventually go to arbitration because it’s just a cycle that’s going to keep repeating itself.

Exactly and given the history that the Sixers have when it comes to their team doctors (see Markelle Fultz and Zhaire Smith), he has absolutely no reason to trust them. I'm not a Simmons fan and I detest Klutch Sports but he has every reason to be paranoid, imo.

[jbent87]

So what happens to that money?

$360K could change so many people’s lives and this dude is just willing to throw it away so easily.

If you really just don’t want to play, why wouldn’t you just go out and fake an injury instead of throwing away a million dollars every 3 games

this is where you really get into the specifics of the scenario, re: the individual at least in Ben.

he's scared to death to own up to this and face the music with the philly media mob that will be waiting for him as well as the home crowd at the first game he attends. Bc he know's he's a fraud and he isn't anywhere near as tough as he's been acting.

He was on the road to fixing this, with proclaiming him having mental health issues... but as of this week it sounds like the Sixers don't have any proof that he's been trying to fix these issues like he says he has. Aka he was home playing COD getting paid for doing nothing. Hence the return of the fines today.

[Sixerscan]

Point of clarification because the wrong point has been repeated multiple times. Ben Simmons is working with mental health therapists through the NBAPA. He’s refused to see the Sixers therapist because I’m guessing it’s part of his paranoia that he can’t trust the team doctors. This will eventually go to arbitration because it’s just a cycle that’s going to keep repeating itself.

Exactly and given the history that the Sixers have when it comes to their team doctors (see Markelle Fultz and Zhaire Smith), he has absolutely no reason to trust them. I'm not a Simmons fan and I detest Klutch Sports but he has every reason to be paranoid, imo.

I think Ben has had like 4 surgeries since he's been here and there's never been an issue?

I think the team would be fine with him going to an independent therapist, as long as the therapist reported their findings to the team in a way that seemed fair. Which isn't happening right now.

Also what does Zhaire Smith not knowing he was allergic to sesame seeds have to do with the Sixers' doctors lol.

[dhsilv2]

They really should trade Ben at this point. The situation isn't improving, and the longer this goes on the more it will drag his value down. Sixers are waiting for another star to demand a trade, but it's becoming increasingly unlikely that Simmons will make that trade happen.

Already been stated there's almost no chance for a trade before December 15th. And it remains likely that they SHOULD wait till the off season.

[Nuntius]

Several people in this thread have stated or implied at this point that Simmons has no obligation to share anything about his condition or treatment, but that's not the way it works when you're getting paid $30 million dollars to play in the NBA.

Directly from the CBA:

"A Player who consults or is treated by a physician (including a psychiatrist) or a professional providing non-mental health related medical services (e.g., chiropractor, physical therapist) other than a physician or other professional designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation or treatment to the Team and shall provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball."

See the bolded part, though? Simmons is a treated by a medical health professional who is providing him with mental health related medical services. So, based on the part of the CBA that you quoted, he really isn't required to share anything with the Sixers. Mental health related medical services are exempt from that, as stated in the part of the CBA that you quoted.

Pretty selective reading to stop reading there and ignore the part I underlined. The whole issue is he's not giving the Sixers any information. If he wants a company he doesn't want to perform services for to pay him millions of dollars under this exception he needs to provide more information. If he'd prefer to keep that to himself that's fine but he doesn't get paid, pretty simple.

I ignored that part because I assumed that the "non-mental health related medical services" part above meant that this situation was excluded by the part that you underlined since we are talking about mental health related medical services. If it doesn't exclude it then, yeah, my assumption was wrong. Still, though, the phrasing of it seems quite nebulous. It doesn't make it clear that a player has to provide updates on mental health related medical services if it affect the player's ability to play basketball.

So, I'm really not sure which of the two assumptions here (mine or yours) are ultimately correct. The phrasing is definitely not clear enough.

[Duke4life831]

Ill say this when it comes to him and. seeing Philly's mental health therapist. Whether you believe he is suffering from mental health issues or not.

You would have to handle the situation as he is actually having mental health issues. And with that, ya I cant see how they can force him to see their team doctors. I would think if he is seeing therapists through the NBPA that should be good enough. Because if the whole situation with Philly is what is causing the mental health issues, you cant expect that person to then be forced to go see their therapists if its the team that is causing the issues.

So ya dont see how that would stick if that is the reasons they're fining him again. I assume the NBPA would challenge that real quick and it wouldnt hold up.

[bbalnation]

Someone really dug up the CBA contract, quoted it to actively advocate against mental health privacy rights in the workplace.

And misunderstood it.

Thats what hating Ben Simmons in Philly will do to you on your Friiday afternoons.

[Nuntius]

I think the team would be fine with him going to an independent therapist, as long as the therapist reported their findings to the team in a way that seemed fair. Which isn't happening right now.

Alright, let's make something clear. He has sought mental health through the NBAPA. He has been seeing a therapist for months now, based on all the reports. He hasn't shared the findings with the team that's true. But:

1) I understand why he hasn't shared them based on the Sixers' tendency to leak that stuff to spin the PR game in their favor.

2) I am not sure that the CBA requires Simmons to share them. So, if he isn't actively required to do it then he definitely won't make any good faith attempt to share them. It's not like the Sixers have operated in good faith here.

Also what does Zhaire Smith not knowing he was allergic to sesame seeds have to do with the Sixers' doctors lol.

One is an incident (Fultz), two is a coincidence (Zhaire), three is a pattern (Simmons). The Sixers' medical team deserves no benefit of the doubt right now, imo.

[Flash4thewin]

At some point, the NBA is going to have to step in and mediate the entire thing. If there was a line in the sand, both parties have crossed it, and the league has to say "Enough is enough." What does each party want is the question.

76ers, they want a superstar. They want to maintain the Dynamic Duo with Embiid. You're not gonna get that with a role player. Maybe a Sixth Man award winner as Doc Rivers attributes them to underdog players, but seeing as Philadelphia was no. 1 seed last year, he doesn't want to go back. They don't want scrubs or draft picks as it's a sign of taking a step back; tank, miss the playoffs, try again next year.

Simmons, he wants a fresh start, but one where he's liked despite his faults. But he doesn't want a lottery team, he wants a surefire championship contender, on a California team no less. Lakers want every superstar and Hall Of Famer, but they're pretty loaded right now. Warriors are doing hot. Kings are desperate to prevent a 16-year playoff drought that could usurp Clippers as worst franchise in all of sports. Clippers want a superstar but not at the expense of chemistry, their superstars, or their former Clipper again (a whole another story) - and especially their newfound identity as being the new Spurs. If Simmons gets bought out, he'll just jump ship towards a free ring by joining either Suns to help them win their first ring, or pitch a free ride with Bucks for a repeat (Imagine a Triple Tower with Simmons-Antetokoumpo-Lopez, the latter when he's healthy).

So yeah, both parties are at an impasse. This is gonna be the 1979 Bill Walton compensation situation all over again.

I think the biggest issue missed is the 4 years on the max contract. For the League I think that's the biggest issue at play, signing a max deal and then try to dictate where they go. Im pretty sure team find that unacceptable. So the idea to just trade Simmons for the sake of trading him would be condoning this type of behavior.

[anotherhomer]

It's quite clear the bridge between Ben Simmons and sixers is burn do

[Dominator83]

As they should. When these teams pay a player, it's because the player is supposed to provide their services. What services is Ben Simmons providing?

That's like signing a deal with a contractor to build you a garage. He doesn't show up, then finally shows up one day and says he's not mentally ready to build your garage, but expects to be paid in full anyway? I don't think so. Lol

[Sixerscan]

See the bolded part, though? Simmons is a treated by a medical health professional who is providing him with mental health related medical services. So, based on the part of the CBA that you quoted, he really isn't required to share anything with the Sixers. Mental health related medical services are exempt from that, as stated in the part of the CBA that you quoted.

Pretty selective reading to stop reading there and ignore the part I underlined. The whole issue is he's not giving the Sixers any information. If he wants a company he doesn't want to perform services for to pay him millions of dollars under this exception he needs to provide more information. If he'd prefer to keep that to himself that's fine but he doesn't get paid, pretty simple.

I ignored that part because I assumed that the "non-mental health related medical services" part above meant that this situation was excluded by the part that you underlined since we are talking about mental health related medical services. If it doesn't exclude it then, yeah, my assumption was wrong. Still, though, the phrasing of it seems quite nebulous. It doesn't make it clear that a player has to provide updates on mental health related medical services if it affect the player's ability to play basketball.

So, I'm really not sure which of the two assumptions here (mine or yours) are ultimately correct. The phrasing is definitely not clear enough.

Well again I think you are missing part of the section, just a different part, here it is again since it got cut off (I added the letters and bolded the part that applies):

"A Player who consults or is treated by (A) a physician (including a psychiatrist) or (B) a professional providing non-mental health related medical services (e.g., chiropractor, physical therapist) other than a physician or other professional designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation or treatment to the Team and shall provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball."

Why would the rest of the sentence only apply to (B) but not (A)? What is the point of (A) being there if the rest of the sentence doesn't apply?

If he sees a psychiatrist he clearly has to provide them with that information, at least that's how I read it.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he's withholding the information because this is part of his "plan" to get traded (i.e., be difficult) rather than any distrust of the Sixers' doctors, since again he's had many interactions with them including major surgeries. Like when he got knee surgery after the 2020 season I know for a fact that it was with a doctor in the Philly area with connections with the team. Heck one of the few times he's talked to the team it was to get the trainers to look at this back.

[shangrila]

As they should. When these teams pay a player, it's because the player is supposed to provide their services. What services is Ben Simmons providing?

That's like signing a deal with a contractor to build you a garage. He doesn't show up, then finally shows up one day and says he's not mentally ready to build your garage, but expects to be paid in full anyway? I don't think so. Lol

The fact you compared contracting work to a salaried position shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Statlanta]

At this point I want Ben to go to Orlando so they have 3 1st round PGs from Philly

[MrBigShot]

Several people in this thread have stated or implied at this point that Simmons has no obligation to share anything about his condition or treatment, but that's not the way it works when you're getting paid $30 million dollars to play in the NBA.

Directly from the CBA:

"A Player who consults or is treated by a physician (including a psychiatrist) or a professional providing non-mental health related medical services (e.g., chiropractor, physical therapist) other than a physician or other professional designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation or treatment to the Team and shall provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball."

See the bolded part, though? Simmons is a treated by a medical health professional who is providing him with mental health related medical services. So, based on the part of the CBA that you quoted, he really isn't required to share anything with the Sixers. Mental health related medical services are exempt from that, as stated in the part of the CBA that you quoted.

The wording is definitely awkward, but by definition a psychiatrist provides mental health care, so mental health related medical services is not exempt. My interpretation of the "professionals providing non-mental health related medical services" is that its there to cover stuff like acupuncture or physical therapy. Now, a therapist isn't a physician but is providing mental health care so there is a bit of a grey area, but the way the excerpt reads It seems to me that the Sixers are well within their rights to request for Ben to substantiate his health.

As far as the issue of the Sixers leaking and trying to spin any info he gives them, that's honestly a pretty fair worry. But ultimately they are paying him $30 million dollars. If he were to go to a neutral psychiatrist, get a diagnosis to support his claims that he is mentally unable to play and subsequently provide that to the team, there would really be no way for them to spin it in a way that won't make them to look terrible. If this is genuine and not a ploy then Simmons should have no reservations about doing that.

[Dominator83]

As they should. When these teams pay a player, it's because the player is supposed to provide their services. What services is Ben Simmons providing?

That's like signing a deal with a contractor to build you a garage. He doesn't show up, then finally shows up one day and says he's not mentally ready to build your garage, but expects to be paid in full anyway? I don't think so. Lol

The fact you compared contracting work to a salaried position shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

That's a bunch of bull and you know it. Players get paid to provide services. What services is he providing ?

[Ayt]

Imagine your employer asking for your mental health records (aka the notes of your sessions with your therapist).

Now imagine your employer is likely to leak those notes to the public: your family, friends, anyone you care for present and in the future.

"Either because he's making it up or because he's difficult". Fanhood doesn't mean reducing ya own humanity mayne.

Imagine telling your employer you can't work anymore due to mental illness but that you expect to still get paid while providing no proof.

[Duke4life831]

As they should. When these teams pay a player, it's because the player is supposed to provide their services. What services is Ben Simmons providing?

That's like signing a deal with a contractor to build you a garage. He doesn't show up, then finally shows up one day and says he's not mentally ready to build your garage, but expects to be paid in full anyway? I don't think so. Lol

The fact you compared contracting work to a salaried position shows you have no idea what you're talking about.

I mean yes the contracts between the two are pretty different, but his base point still stands. Ben Simmons signed a contract, that contract was for his services to play basketball for Philly. Simmons shouldn't expect to still get paid even when he decides he is no longer to play basketball for Philly.

The comparison is a pretty straight forward comparison on what is basics of a contract. Two sides agree for an exchange of goods for services. Dont expect the goods of the contract if the services arent done. It would be the same if you flipped it around. We wouldnt expect Simmons to play basketball for Philly, if Philly was refusing to pay him even if he was playing.