Can a case be made that Larry Bird was the GOAT ?

[links135]

We all know the true goat is Paul Pierce

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[dcstanley]

If someone called any of Bird, Magic, Wilt, MJ, Kareem, or Russell the GOAT I wouldn’t have much issue with it.

Lebron has a better case than damn near all of these players.

Sure, I get why you feel that way but to me he has one of the most problematic and manufactured legacies out there.

Sounds like hate, my friend.

[The Rebel]

Lebron has a better case than damn near all of these players.

Sure, I get why you feel that way but to me he has one of the most problematic and manufactured legacies out there.

Sounds like hate, my friend.

Call it what you like, but the fact is the NBA had to make things easier for Lebron while he was playing in a league where many of his potential rivals had their careers derailed by injuries or they joined him on a team.

[JordansBulls]

He was a bad man, but he lost 7 series with HCA. Has less titles, league mvp's and finals mvp's than anyone most have ahead of him including advanced stats as well.

[ty 4191]

Over a 9 year stretch, Larry Bird won 3 MVPs, came in 2nd 4 times, 3rd once and 4th once. Sheer dominance.

I've written the years in which he placed in the top 5 and his positions in brackets. * denotes that they won MVP.

Larry Bird: 88(2), 87(3), 86(), 85(), 84(*), 83(2), 82(2), 81(2), 80(4) = 9 (3 MVPs) (4 2nd places)

[celtxman]

He was a bad man, but he lost 7 series with HCA. Has less titles, league mvp's and finals mvp's than anyone most have ahead of him including advanced stats as well.

He played in the 80s where the competition for awards was fiercerthan any other time. As I said earlier MJ wasn't winning 6 titles in the 80s

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Celtics were my home team from before Bird until Bird's last year.

You have 3 contests for GOAT. Who is the best center? Who is the best non center? Is the best center better than the best non center?

I value rim protection so much that I can't rule the centers out as GOAT. On the other hand are the centers really basketball players?
Are soccer goalies really scoccer player?

Who is the best passing player over 6' 5" in height? To me this is easy as long as passing means passing and does not include dribbling ability Bird is the best passing player over 6' 5" in height. Bird is the best big passer, Magic is second, Rick Barry and Jokic and ... can battle for 3rd. LeBron is not top 20. If LeBron is not a top 20 passer and Bird is best why does LeBron have more assists. If you count assists per minute with the ball in your hand Draymond Green is a better passer than LeBron. LeBron is more ball dominant than Magic was.

LeBron coukd play a drive a kick game like he was Tim Hardaway. Bird and Jokic's problem is that they can't dribble like point guards so they can't be ball dominant. What happens when you challege LeBron's dribble far from the basket? LeBron blows past you and leaves you in the dust when you challenge his dribble. What happens when you challenge Bird's dribble; Bird gets past you but he does not leave you in the dust and you are still there harrassing his dribble.

When LeBron blows past his man help defenders must pick up LeBron and LeBron can pass to the guys that the help defenders left. It does not matter if the open man is Tristan Thompson in the paint or Kyrie at the 3 point line as long as they can score reliably while undefended. A bad LeBron team is a team where the open men he passes to can't score.

Magic vs Bird was a good competition for reatest non center then Jordan ruinned that. Oscar still has a case for most dominant non center in his era. I just don't like Oscar's era so I have Oscar below Magic and Bird. Then along comes Kobe and Kobe fans want to claim Kobe is better than Jordan. Kobe fans needed a spanking and I was happy when LeBron fans spanked the Kobe fans.

Kobe is below Magic and Bird but what about LeBron? I have LeBron below Jordan but above Magic and Bird. But LeBron has efficiency stats suggesting he is better than Jordan and LeBron is bigger than Jordan, rebounds more and assists more.

LeBron fans have a habit of trashing LeBron's teammates to make LeBron look better. Jordan played point off guard for 1/2 season and put up great assist numbers. This was 1988, the team had given up on Sam Vincent as the poitguard and had not yet emraced Scottie Pipppen as the point forward. Paxson, Kerr and Hodges were floor spacers not true point guards. They could not beat their men off the dribble and were little threat to drive to the rim. Brown could defend point guards and drive to the rim but he could not pass. BJ Armstrong could beat his man off the dribble and drive to the rim and BJ could floor space but BJ was not much of a passer. With Jordan playing baseball and Pippen being more of the off the ball scorer and Armstong being in his 3rd year Armstron emerged as a bit of a passer.

Yes LeBron rebounds better than Jordan but so do all the centers.

The big issuevis scoring efficiency. I discount Oscar because of his era and I discount the efficiency of all current players because of their era. In my opinion every scoring star from past lower effiecency eras would be a more efficient scorer in the current era because all the 3 point shooters have removed the help defender from the paint.

I personally believe Jordan would be unstoppable in the current era due to missing help defenders. Bird would also Benefit from missing help defenders.

What position did Bird play? Bird spent most of his defensive minutes defending power forwards. There was nothing wrong with Bird's man to man defense when he guarded power forwards. Some say Bird took the weaker offensive player and then played zone rover jumping passing lanes and doubling people. Bird could not stay in front of a good small forward. Bird played outside on offense half of the time because Maxwell and McHale could not score from the outside and needed Bird to go outside to create space for them inside but does that make Bird a small fotward? If a team has 3 of the greatest power forwards but no small forward then who is the small forward, the guy who defends small forwards or the guy who has an outside shot? Dirk had an outside shot, does that make him a small forward?

Everybody has Bird's position wrong. Bird had fabulous inside scoring moves. Bird was a power forward on a team that had 3 great power forwards and poor small forwards. Bird could guard Karl Malone. Bird could not guard Barkley because Barkley would beat Bird with Small Forward moves and speed. Bird could not guard Kevin Willis because Kevin Willis would beat Bird with Center moves. Otherwise Bird was a better than average man to man defender against all power forwards.

People remember the 1986 finals. Bird guarded McRay. McHale shut down Ralph Sampson. Bird coukd guard McRay because Mcray had been a center in college and he could not drive well enough to exploit Bird's weakness. 7' 3" Ralph Sampson might have shot over Bird.
This was an exception to the rule that Bird guards the power forwards.

Who is the best power forward ever? I say it was Bird. I say Duncan was a center and I think Duncan is a little overrated and what was best about Duncan is that he was a good defensive center. Dirk, KG, Karl Malone, Barkley? I prefer Bird as my power forward over any of them.

What does Bird need to be the GOAT non-center? Bird needs to be able to drive like LeBron. LeBron had his thunder slams. Bird does not need thunder slams he just needs to be able to get to the rim like LeBron could and then Bird has so many ways of finishing. Bird was enough better than Jordan at everything but driving past people that although Jordan was quite superior to LeBron at driving past people a LeBron Level drive added to Bird's game would be sufficient to make Bird better than Jordan.

But since Bird could not drive like LeBron or even drive like any good speed driving small forward, Bird is stuck battling with Magic one level down from LeBron and two levels down from Jordan. Even if Bird could just drive like Scottie Pippen Bird would be the GOAT non center.

[Grumpy Heat Fan]

Larry Bird is the GOAT Small Forward.

but MJ is goat.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Larry Bird is the GOAT Small Forward.

but MJ is goat.

Bird was a power forward. Bird was the GOAT power forward.
LeBron was a little better than Bird. LeBron is now best suited to be a power forward but LeBron is the GOAT small forward.
Jordan was better than LeBron and is the GOAT off guard.
Magic did not defend point guards. The best showtime Lakers had Nixon at point guard and Magic at point off guard.

On an averaging team Bird replaces the power forward. On an average team Magic replaces the small forward.


I will call Magic the second best small forward, behind LeBron but ahead of Durant and Dr J. Magic would be a point small forward but as he showed with Norm Nixon Magic can play with a true point guard. It was nice that Nixon could shoot but even if I pair Magic with young peak non shooting Rajon Rondo and an average gaurd and a fast undersized good shooting power forward and Rudy Gobert I would have a crazy fast breaking Championship contender.

[BostonCouchGM]

Larry Bird is the GOAT Small Forward.

but MJ is goat.

Bird was a power forward. Bird was the GOAT power forward.
LeBron was a little better than Bird. LeBron is now best suited to be a power forward but LeBron is the GOAT small forward.
Jordan was better than LeBron and is the GOAT off guard.
Magic did not defend point guards. The best showtime Lakers had Nixon at point guard and Magic at point off guard.

On an averaging team Bird replaces the power forward. On an average team Magic replaces the small forward.


I will call Magic the second best small forward, behind LeBron but ahead of Durant and Dr J. Magic would be a point small forward but as he showed with Norm Nixon Magic can play with a true point guard. It was nice that Nixon could shoot but even if I pair Magic with young peak non shooting Rajon Rondo and an average gaurd and a fast undersized good shooting power forward and Rudy Gobert I would have a crazy fast breaking Championship contender.

Stop. McHale was the PF. It’s not debatable. And Lebron isn’t a SF. He’s a PG. he can’t play off ball. You can call it point forward if you want and claim he invented the position but he’s not close to being a SF

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Larry Bird is the GOAT Small Forward.

but MJ is goat.

Bird was a power forward. Bird was the GOAT power forward.
LeBron was a little better than Bird. LeBron is now best suited to be a power forward but LeBron is the GOAT small forward.
Jordan was better than LeBron and is the GOAT off guard.
Magic did not defend point guards. The best showtime Lakers had Nixon at point guard and Magic at point off guard.

On an averaging team Bird replaces the power forward. On an average team Magic replaces the small forward.


I will call Magic the second best small forward, behind LeBron but ahead of Durant and Dr J. Magic would be a point small forward but as he showed with Norm Nixon Magic can play with a true point guard. It was nice that Nixon could shoot but even if I pair Magic with young peak non shooting Rajon Rondo and an average gaurd and a fast undersized good shooting power forward and Rudy Gobert I would have a crazy fast breaking Championship contender.

Stop. McHale was the PF. It’s not debatable. And Lebron isn’t a SF. He’s a PG. he can’t play off ball. You can call it point forward if you want and claim he invented the position but he’s not close to being a SF

If a team plays a 3 guard line up do you have a problem with not calling one of the guards a forward?

Bird played power forward and also back up center in college.
The only reason the Celtics media guide called Bird a small forward in his rookie year was because our best player from the horrible 1979 year was our starting power forward Cedric Maxwell.

The Celtics found out pretty quickly that Bird's man to man defense on people like Dr J was bad. Otherwise Bird was a good defender.
We had ML Carr but Cedric Maxwell was too good to not be on the floor with Bird. By the 1981 playoffs Maxwell had learned to defend small forwards and got high praise for his defense on Dr J.

But most fans and reporters notice offense not defense. Bird would drift outside sometimes on offense. On the other hand Bird, Maxwell, Parish, Robey and McHale were clobbering the 76ers on the offensive boards even though, Dawkins, Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones and Erving were a good rebounding team. Bird wasn't really playing offensive small forward. Bird was rebounding and scoring inside. Bird had no set role and could turn up anywhere but half the time he was inside.

McHale absolutley was a power forward but it was McHale guarding Domique Wilkins during they great Bird vs Wilkins scoring contests. It was McHale guarding Dantley, McHale on Orlando Woolridge while Bird took Oakley while Jordan lit up the Celtics in a loosing effort in the 1986 playoffs. Watch any game against a small forward that can drive and see who McHale guards.

We got better rim protection when McHale guarded power forwards and thereby was closer to the paint but the issue of small forwards driving on Bird was a bigger issue. Bird had faster feet than McHale but McHale's arms were so long that you could drive past his feet and his outstretched hand was still there to block the small forward's shot.

I agree that McHale being forced to play out of position at small forward on defense does not make McHale a small forward.
Maxwell, Bird nd McHale were all power forwards. ML Carr was a small forward but he was pretty much phased out by 1983
Scott Wedman was a small forward but a little on the slow side.

Injured Maxwell was traded for Walton. In 1987 with Wedman injured KC Jones decided to just play his starters about 40 minutes a night which I think was a mistake. We got Fred Roberts who was a 3-4 tweener and Darren Daye a true small forward cast off by I think the Bullets for not being good enough. KC Jones did not develop his bench. KC trusted Roberts more than Daye. I think Daye was defensively weak when he arrived with the Celtics. Daye helped the Celtics out in a few playoff games vs the Pistons but the Celtics still primarily played 2 power forwards Bird and McHale.

So there were 2 errors that got Bird misslabelled a small forward. 1, the rookie Media guide that was not going to call Maxwell a small foward and so had to call Bird a small forward. And 2 the fact that McHale was clearly a power forward which implied that Bird was a small Forwrd. Basketball reference eventually came arround to calling Bird a power forward while he played with Maxwell. Basketball reference should call Bird and McHale both power forwards after Maxwell was gone. Sure Bird and McHale both started but that does not mean that one of them was a small foward.

So my other test, hypothetically add Bird to any random team and tell me the postion of the player that loses his starting job to Bird. It will Almost always be the power forwards that lose their minutes to Bird.

[LAL1947]

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[sisibilio]

Bird was a power forward. Bird was the GOAT power forward.
LeBron was a little better than Bird. LeBron is now best suited to be a power forward but LeBron is the GOAT small forward.
Jordan was better than LeBron and is the GOAT off guard.
Magic did not defend point guards. The best showtime Lakers had Nixon at point guard and Magic at point off guard.

On an averaging team Bird replaces the power forward. On an average team Magic replaces the small forward.


I will call Magic the second best small forward, behind LeBron but ahead of Durant and Dr J. Magic would be a point small forward but as he showed with Norm Nixon Magic can play with a true point guard. It was nice that Nixon could shoot but even if I pair Magic with young peak non shooting Rajon Rondo and an average gaurd and a fast undersized good shooting power forward and Rudy Gobert I would have a crazy fast breaking Championship contender.

Stop. McHale was the PF. It’s not debatable. And Lebron isn’t a SF. He’s a PG. he can’t play off ball. You can call it point forward if you want and claim he invented the position but he’s not close to being a SF

If a team plays a 3 guard line up do you have a problem with not calling one of the guards a forward?

Bird played power forward and also back up center in college.
The only reason the Celtics media guide called Bird a small forward in his rookie year was because our best player from the horrible 1979 year was our starting power forward Cedric Maxwell.

The Celtics found out pretty quickly that Bird's man to man defense on people like Dr J was bad. Otherwise Bird was a good defender.
We had ML Carr but Cedric Maxwell was too good to not be on the floor with Bird. By the 1981 playoffs Maxwell had learned to defend small forwards and got high praise for his defense on Dr J.

But most fans and reporters notice offense not defense. Bird would drift outside sometimes on offense. On the other hand Bird, Maxwell, Parish, Robey and McHale were clobbering the 76ers on the offensive boards even though, Dawkins, Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones and Erving were a good rebounding team. Bird wasn't really playing offensive small forward. Bird was rebounding and scoring inside. Bird had no set role and could turn up anywhere but half the time he was inside.

McHale absolutley was a power forward but it was McHale guarding Domique Wilkins during they great Bird vs Wilkins scoring contests. It was McHale guarding Dantley, McHale on Orlando Woolridge while Bird took Oakley while Jordan lit up the Celtics in a loosing effort in the 1986 playoffs. Watch any game against a small forward that can drive and see who McHale guards.

We got better rim protection when McHale guarded power forwards and thereby was closer to the paint but the issue of small forwards driving on Bird was a bigger issue. Bird had faster feet than McHale but McHale's arms were so long that you could drive past his feet and his outstretched hand was still there to block the small forward's shot.

I agree that McHale being forced to play out of position at small forward on defense does not make McHale a small forward.
Maxwell, Bird nd McHale were all power forwards. ML Carr was a small forward but he was pretty much phased out by 1983
Scott Wedman was a small forward but a little on the slow side.

Injured Maxwell was traded for Walton. In 1987 with Wedman injured KC Jones decided to just play his starters about 40 minutes a night which I think was a mistake. We got Fred Roberts who was a 3-4 tweener and Darren Daye a true small forward cast off by I think the Bullets for not being good enough. KC Jones did not develop his bench. KC trusted Roberts more than Daye. I think Daye was defensively weak when he arrived with the Celtics. Daye helped the Celtics out in a few playoff games vs the Pistons but the Celtics still primarily played 2 power forwards Bird and McHale.

So there were 2 errors that got Bird misslabelled a small forward. 1, the rookie Media guide that was not going to call Maxwell a small foward and so had to call Bird a small forward. And 2 the fact that McHale was clearly a power forward which implied that Bird was a small Forwrd. Basketball reference eventually came arround to calling Bird a power forward while he played with Maxwell. Basketball reference should call Bird and McHale both power forwards after Maxwell was gone. Sure Bird and McHale both started but that does not mean that one of them was a small foward.

So my other test, hypothetically add Bird to any random team and tell me the postion of the player that loses his starting job to Bird. It will Almost always be the power forwards that lose their minutes to Bird.

Bird played both at PF & SF but at his peak (84-88) mostly SF

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[HomoSapien]

Lebron has a better case than damn near all of these players.

Sure, I get why you feel that way but to me he has one of the most problematic and manufactured legacies out there.

Sounds like hate, my friend.

Why does it have to be hate? I don't dislike him. He has GOAT level stats and talent, but he's lost in the finals 60% of the time he's been there despite jumping around from team to team to increase his odds at winning. All these guys are neck and neck great, but if we're making this a discussion about the GOAT then the player's story matters. For me, it's impossible to ignore six finals' losses, including one to a Nowitzki team that no thought would win.

[dcstanley]

Sure, I get why you feel that way but to me he has one of the most problematic and manufactured legacies out there.

Sounds like hate, my friend.

Why does it have to be hate? I don't dislike him. He has GOAT level stats and talent, but he's lost in the finals 60% of the time he's been there despite jumping around from team to team to increase his odds at winning. All these guys are neck and neck great, but if we're making this a discussion about the GOAT then the player's story matters. For me, it's impossible to ignore six finals' losses, including one to a Nowitzki team that no thought would win.

So is it more acceptable to lose earlier in the playoffs? He has a similar win percentage as Kobe, KAJ, and Duncan-- Lebron has won 4 championships in 18 seasons while KAJ won 6 in 21, Duncan won 5 in 20, and Kobe won 5 in 20 (and that's with Lebron spending his first seven seasons on a Cleveland team that was devoid of championship talent). His teams were generally overmatched in the finals whether due injury or GOAT level competition.

[HomoSapien]

Sounds like hate, my friend.

Why does it have to be hate? I don't dislike him. He has GOAT level stats and talent, but he's lost in the finals 60% of the time he's been there despite jumping around from team to team to increase his odds at winning. All these guys are neck and neck great, but if we're making this a discussion about the GOAT then the player's story matters. For me, it's impossible to ignore six finals' losses, including one to a Nowitzki team that no thought would win.

So is it more acceptable to lose earlier in the playoffs? He has a similar win percentage as Kobe, KAJ, and Duncan-- Lebron has won 4 championships in 18 seasons while KAJ won 6 in 21, Duncan won 5 in 20, and Kobe won 5 in 20 (and that's with Lebron spending his first seven seasons on a Cleveland team that was devoid of championship talent). His teams were generally overmatched in the finals whether due injury or GOAT level competition.

In LeBron's case, I think it's way worse trying to jump around, stack the decks in your favor, and then lose 60% of time when you're supposed to be the best player in every series you've ever played in.

Also, I don't think Duncan or Kobe can reasonably be in a GOAT conversation.

[Drakeem]

Why does it have to be hate? I don't dislike him. He has GOAT level stats and talent, but he's lost in the finals 60% of the time he's been there despite jumping around from team to team to increase his odds at winning. All these guys are neck and neck great, but if we're making this a discussion about the GOAT then the player's story matters. For me, it's impossible to ignore six finals' losses, including one to a Nowitzki team that no thought would win.

So is it more acceptable to lose earlier in the playoffs? He has a similar win percentage as Kobe, KAJ, and Duncan-- Lebron has won 4 championships in 18 seasons while KAJ won 6 in 21, Duncan won 5 in 20, and Kobe won 5 in 20 (and that's with Lebron spending his first seven seasons on a Cleveland team that was devoid of championship talent). His teams were generally overmatched in the finals whether due injury or GOAT level competition.

In LeBron's case, I think it's way worse trying to jump around, stack the decks in your favor, and then lose 60% of time when you're supposed to be the best player in every series you've ever played in.

Also, I don't think Duncan or Kobe can reasonably be in a GOAT conversation.

So we have to discredit guys like Bird/Magic/Kobe being drafted on teams with other ATGs right? You can dislike someones actions or personality but that shouldn't take away from their results. Him choosing to go to Miami is no different than Magic saying he would have stayed in school if Chicago had the first pick. At least Bron gave the Cavs a chance, but I digress.

We gotta try and stop judging people with our own personal tastes and what we like to see in a player. I personally don't really love LeBrons bully ball style and would much rather watch someone like KD who utilizes a lot more finesse, but that doesn't mean I can negate the fact that Bron is clearly the best player of his generation and in very close contention for the GOAT label. This award isn't the Most Likable of All Time or Most Marketable of All Time. We are looking for the greatest basketball player ever. If all that player did was elbow people and dunk the ball, as long as their method of basketball is better than anyone elses, it shouldn't matter if you enjoy it or not. We have to keep our bias out of it as much as possible. Otherwise, there's no point.

[Slim Charless]

Why does it have to be hate? I don't dislike him. He has GOAT level stats and talent, but he's lost in the finals 60% of the time he's been there despite jumping around from team to team to increase his odds at winning. All these guys are neck and neck great, but if we're making this a discussion about the GOAT then the player's story matters. For me, it's impossible to ignore six finals' losses, including one to a Nowitzki team that no thought would win.

So is it more acceptable to lose earlier in the playoffs? He has a similar win percentage as Kobe, KAJ, and Duncan-- Lebron has won 4 championships in 18 seasons while KAJ won 6 in 21, Duncan won 5 in 20, and Kobe won 5 in 20 (and that's with Lebron spending his first seven seasons on a Cleveland team that was devoid of championship talent). His teams were generally overmatched in the finals whether due injury or GOAT level competition.

In LeBron's case, I think it's way worse trying to jump around, stack the decks in your favor, and then lose 60% of time when you're supposed to be the best player in every series you've ever played in.

Also, I don't think Duncan or Kobe can reasonably be in a GOAT conversation.

Kobe would've ate Bird alive. Shut him down and probably averaged 30+ against him as well.

[AbeVigodaLive]

So is it more acceptable to lose earlier in the playoffs? He has a similar win percentage as Kobe, KAJ, and Duncan-- Lebron has won 4 championships in 18 seasons while KAJ won 6 in 21, Duncan won 5 in 20, and Kobe won 5 in 20 (and that's with Lebron spending his first seven seasons on a Cleveland team that was devoid of championship talent). His teams were generally overmatched in the finals whether due injury or GOAT level competition.

In LeBron's case, I think it's way worse trying to jump around, stack the decks in your favor, and then lose 60% of time when you're supposed to be the best player in every series you've ever played in.

Also, I don't think Duncan or Kobe can reasonably be in a GOAT conversation.

So we have to discredit guys like Bird/Magic/Kobe being drafted on teams with other ATGs right? You can dislike someones actions or personality but that shouldn't take away from their results. Him choosing to go to Miami is no different than Magic saying he would have stayed in school if Chicago had the first pick. At least Bron gave the Cavs a chance, but I digress.

Like many/most all-time greats... their arrival signals a huge shift in a franchise's fortunes.

For example, Larry Bird arrived in Boston to play for a team that went 32 - 50 and then 29 - 53 the previous two seasons.

The team went 61 - 21 in Bird's rookie season... prior to McHale and Parish joining the squad. Once those two arrived the following year... they won a title. But Bird was THE reason for the sudden and drastic franchise turnaround.


[Note: Other greats helped immediately, too... Magic joined a much better team... but it wasn't a championship level team until he arrived.]