Suns Just Another Team

[Clippers1984]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

[RRyder823]

The part that's confusing is why anyone would say the Suns have zero chance to win a championship when litterally just last season they were in the Finals, had a legitmate chance to win a championship, and returned pretty much the same team that did that. It's a allready been proven that the Suns are a legitimate title threat

As a Bucks fan that would be like someone saying Middleton isn't good enough to be a #2 on a championship team (another statement that was a thing).

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[Clippers1984]

If they have the same cakewalk to the finals, i.e. playing injured opponents in every single round, then yes they can get back to the finals and get smoked by the Bucks or Nets. If Giannis is out for the series, then they have a shot.

[sunsbg]

If they have the same cakewalk to the finals, i.e. playing injured opponents in every single round, then yes they can get back to the finals and get smoked by the Bucks or Nets. If Giannis is out for the series, then they have a shot.

Don't be so upset your load-managed star can't stay healthy. Suns had their injury curse this season as well and still are crushing the league.

[Clippers1984]

If they have the same cakewalk to the finals, i.e. playing injured opponents in every single round, then yes they can get back to the finals and get smoked by the Bucks or Nets. If Giannis is out for the series, then they have a shot.

Don't be so upset your load-managed star can't stay healthy. Suns had their injury curse this season as well and still are crushing the league.

Haha I'm not worried about my own team. I sincerely think the Suns are overrated, but we'll revisit this once they are eliminated. Shouldn't be long.

[spanishninja]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

[bwgood77]

Suns are a really good team with great depth and one definite another maybe HOF player

They could lose in the first round to a Lebron AD oast their prime cast IMO as well.

The fact that we're actively talking about an 8 seed having the 2 best players in the series over a #1 seed is really why the Suns will be "just another team" until they prove it.

They need to prove they are absolutely better than the Lakers by beating them in a series when the Lakers are healthy.

Until they do, they will always be doubted.

People need to stop this silly narrative. The Lakers prove that just because you have two top ten players doesn't mean you're a great team automatically, they're struggling to make the play in yet they'll beat a 60+ win team that has owned them in recent meetings? The Lakers are straight garbage, I'd like my Spurs chances vs them in the play in so please let's stop putting them in the same breath as other contenders.

Also this narrative that you must have a top ten player to win a title is outdated, the league has a lot more talent, a guy like booker might not be top ten now, but he's top 15 easily and honestly is there much difference between booker and whoever people have as the tenth best player in the league? Doubt it. I remember from 2012 to 2014 the same thing was being said about the Spurs.

Booker and Chris Paul are definitely top 15, and Bridges and Ayton are very strong 3rd/4th pieces. Yes, it's hard to put any one Suns player over the best players of some other contenders, but I don't think Ja is better than Booker or Paul. Memphis actually plays better when Jones starts, at least by win/loss. Not saying they are better if Ja is out in the playoffs, but they are very good. In the west, the teams with top 10 players just don't have enough else I don't think outside of maybe the Warriors if they are completely healthy. Jokic without Porter/Murray isn't enough, Luka isn't enough, LeBron/AD don't have enough, Kawhi out, so with George back they likely don't have enough.

Now the Bucks, Sixers, Heat, Celtics and Nets are all different but they'd only have to face one of them. They may not be favorites then (but there is a good chance they would be), but they have the easier road.

[Clippers1984]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

Okay fair enough. I'll give you that they might be borderline elite as a regular season team this season, but I still don't see a Chris Paul, Devin Booker led team winning a thing when it matters. I know Booker has been whining about people playing with his name and the lack of respect he gets, but the truth is if he's your best player, you just aren't going to win. If the Suns prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to come back here and eat my plate of crow, but I truly can't see any scenario in which they'll be hoisting the trophy.

[Mr Puddles]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

Okay fair enough. I'll give you that they might be borderline elite as a regular season team this season, but I still don't see a Chris Paul, Devin Booker led team winning a thing when it matters. I know Booker has been whining about people playing with his name and the lack of respect he gets, but the truth is if he's your best player, you just aren't going to win. If the Suns prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to come back here and eat my plate of crow, but I truly can't see any scenario in which they'll be hoisting the trophy.

I'd love to see this. However, given the track record of sweeping statements that have been made about the Suns since their bubble run, and the lack of people who have since owned up to those statements, I'm not holding my breath. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, but I'm sure we'll be hearing the same old tired excuses this summer we've been hearing over the past two seasons.

[spanishninja]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

Okay fair enough. I'll give you that they might be borderline elite as a regular season team this season, but I still don't see a Chris Paul, Devin Booker led team winning a thing when it matters. I know Booker has been whining about people playing with his name and the lack of respect he gets, but the truth is if he's your best player, you just aren't going to win. If the Suns prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to come back here and eat my plate of crow, but I truly can't see any scenario in which they'll be hoisting the trophy.

even if you have no faith in Devin Booker, you can at least agree that Chris Paul was just a hamstring injury away from likely winning it all in 17/18. I know health is a factor for him, and I would cease any claims about the Suns being elite if he suffers another injury this postseason, but we're talking one of the all time great PGs here. you still haven't provided any evidence to support the argument that this team will 100% not win the ring.

[Clippers1984]

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

Okay fair enough. I'll give you that they might be borderline elite as a regular season team this season, but I still don't see a Chris Paul, Devin Booker led team winning a thing when it matters. I know Booker has been whining about people playing with his name and the lack of respect he gets, but the truth is if he's your best player, you just aren't going to win. If the Suns prove me wrong, I'll be the first one to come back here and eat my plate of crow, but I truly can't see any scenario in which they'll be hoisting the trophy.

I'd love to see this. However, given the track record of sweeping statements that have been made about the Suns since their bubble run, and the lack of people who have since owned up to those statements, I'm not holding my breath. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now, but I'm sure we'll be hearing the same old tired excuses this summer we've been hearing over the past two seasons.

I'll be back for sure. I have no problem admitting when I'm wrong, especially when I've been so vocal about my stance.

[Vampirate]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

Well the overall talent level those 04 Pistons went up against in the Finals was easily greater than the overall talent the 2021 Suns went up against in the Finals.

One team had an All Time great defense and won, the other team just made the finals and were probably pretty green and lost to the Bucks.

In short, last years Suns team did not have an All Time aspect in their prime playing factor.

Now let's go forwards a decade to the 2014 Spurs and let's not make comparisons here.


Those Spurs had actually had players who won in the finals and had an up and coming Kawhi and a still elite defensive playing Tim Duncan.

Those Spurs had one of the greatest of all time coaches, the greatest of all time PF (although aging) and All Time great coming up in Kawhi Leonard and an All Star PG who contributed before in big moments in Tony parker. Those Spurs had been to the dance before, and knew what it took to win, they also took down Lebron's Heat (also a team that has greater overall talent than the 2021 Bucks).

The Suns have one of the best PGs of all time granted, but he's in his mid 30s now, Paul was closer to his Prime when he was in Houston, although he's still an excellent PG to this day no doubt. The other thing about Paul is injuries have plagued him in the playoffs.

So really if you want to argue 2022 Chris Paul = 2014 Tim Duncan in terms of impact at the time fine, but those Spurs were far more seasoned, had better overall talent, a better coach, tasted Finals success and were very very hungry.

[schnakenpopanz]

It's all relative to the circumstances. is this team in my eyes better than the nash era suns. probably. more balanced - sure, better coached - yes. better built - hell yes.
but is it more impactfull? exciting? fun to watch? no no and no.
nash suns changed the league. took it by storm and should have gone at least once to the final/win it all.
but people are acting like this team is just lucky, a fluke, is just plain trolling.
it has been built the right way.
let's play the reverse troll for a while. I think people are 100% sure that doncic is the better player in retrospective compared to ayton. he is fun to watch. exciting and gets ratings. but it is very possible that he might never reach the finals ever. like other greats.
this would make his career a bust/failure? no. just because a team is not sexy or includes a player you dislike, don't hate what they are doing.

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[Clippers1984]

Good post, and I agree with most of what you said. I don't hate what the Suns are doing, I just don't think they'll be able to maintain the regular season success in the playoffs. They have no real weaknesses and a ton of depth, but I don't think either of those things will matter when the playoffs roll around. I think there are a handful of teams that match up very well with them, with better stars and more experience and those teams are going to take them out before the finals and failing that, the bucks or nets will finish them off. Great record, good players, good coach, but just another great regular season team that will ultimately lose. I personally believe that any of the teams they faced last year on the way to the finals would have taken them out if they were fully healthy. Yes, I know that injuries are a part of the game and every team has some luck along the way, but the Suns had everything break their way and still came up short. I doubt they'll have the same sort of luck two years in a row and I don't think they're good enough to do anything special without the luck. We'll see.

[Bobbcats]

but the Suns had everything break their way and still came up short.

Absurd. CP3 was so bad in the first round I think it was a bigger loss to the Suns than AD, who at least had the good sens to not play. The Suns won the first game when both were fine.

Then he missed a couple of the Clippers game with COVID and took a while to get back to speed in that series, and had a hand injury that needed surgery midway through the Bucks. Yeah the other teams had problems too, but Suns weren't that lucky themselves. The only series where CP3 was OK throughout was a sweep where none of the games were close.

[og15]

but the Suns had everything break their way and still came up short.

Absurd. CP3 was so bad in the first round I think it was a bigger loss to the Suns than AD, who at least had the good sens to not play. The Suns won the first game when both were fine.

Then he missed a couple of the Clippers game with COVID and took a while to get back to speed in that series, and had a hand injury that needed surgery midway through the Bucks. Yeah the other teams had problems too, but Suns weren't that lucky themselves. The only series where CP3 was OK throughout was a sweep where none of the games were close.

I think there's been a general conclusion by many to minimize / sweep under the rug the injuries to CP3 as well as the games he missed from COVID. I'll say that when Paul was on the Clippers with much more flawed teams which were less resilient, these same issues he had with Phoenix would have resulted in lost series', and he was a better player then. Since Phoenix was able to get through it and win, it's easy to conclude that they really didn't have much going on.

[TheBobster]

but the Suns had everything break their way and still came up short.

Absurd. CP3 was so bad in the first round I think it was a bigger loss to the Suns than AD, who at least had the good sens to not play. The Suns won the first game when both were fine.

Then he missed a couple of the Clippers game with COVID and took a while to get back to speed in that series, and had a hand injury that needed surgery midway through the Bucks. Yeah the other teams had problems too, but Suns weren't that lucky themselves. The only series where CP3 was OK throughout was a sweep where none of the games were close.

Plus they lost their only dependable big man off the bench when Sarić blew out his knee early in the Finals.

[carrrnuttt]

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[spanishninja]

Those two teams were elite. The Suns are not. I guarantee we won't be adding their name to the list.

what evidence do you have to show that the Suns are not elite? at least they're no less elite than the 04 Pistons.

it's possible your point is proven in the playoffs, but until then you have no reasonable arguments

Well the overall talent level those 04 Pistons went up against in the Finals was easily greater than the overall talent the 2021 Suns went up against in the Finals.

One team had an All Time great defense and won, the other team just made the finals and were probably pretty green and lost to the Bucks.

In short, last years Suns team did not have an All Time aspect in their prime playing factor.

Now let's go forwards a decade to the 2014 Spurs and let's not make comparisons here.


Those Spurs had actually had players who won in the finals and had an up and coming Kawhi and a still elite defensive playing Tim Duncan.

Those Spurs had one of the greatest of all time coaches, the greatest of all time PF (although aging) and All Time great coming up in Kawhi Leonard and an All Star PG who contributed before in big moments in Tony parker. Those Spurs had been to the dance before, and knew what it took to win, they also took down Lebron's Heat (also a team that has greater overall talent than the 2021 Bucks).

The Suns have one of the best PGs of all time granted, but he's in his mid 30s now, Paul was closer to his Prime when he was in Houston, although he's still an excellent PG to this day no doubt. The other thing about Paul is injuries have plagued him in the playoffs.

So really if you want to argue 2022 Chris Paul = 2014 Tim Duncan in terms of impact at the time fine, but those Spurs were far more seasoned, had better overall talent, a better coach, tasted Finals success and were very very hungry.

why are you bringing up last year's Suns in a discussion about this year's team? it's not the same team if you look at overall record, net rating, record against .500 teams, record after being up OR down after 3rd quarter, clutch play, and countless other metrics. there was been significant organic growth in the core, and we now have real bigs to back up Ayton. that's the difference between a .700 team and an .800 team.

and if you dont think a team that loss in the finals the way the Suns did would be hungry, you need to think again.

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[Jaqua92]

people keep saying Booker isn't top 10 but whenever I tell people to list guys ahead of him, they always include a bunch of injured players like AD, Dame, PG and Kawhi on there. He definitely has a legit case of being top 10 this season.

Also, in regard to Booker not making huge plays, having two 40 point games in the finals qualifies as stepping up, eh?

1. KD
2. Jokic
3. Giannis
4. Embiid
5. Steph
6. LeBron
7. Luka
8. Tatum
9. Harden
10. Ja Morant

That's probably your top 10 seasons. In terms of injury, and players who are out and haven't fallen off a cliff, you got Kawhi as most likely still better. Paul George (assuming he hasn't fallen off a cliff).

I think you can also put Trae over Booker as well.

Booker is a top 15 or so player. He's noticeably a step down from that bonafide top 10 player list.



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NBA.com Advanced Stats NET Rating leaders (offense + defense combined): https://www.nba.com/stats/players/advanced-leaders/


1. Jayson Tatum BOS 11.3
2. Stephen Curry GSW 10.7
3. Mikal Bridges PHX 10.6
4. Hassan Whiteside UTA 10.6
5. Chris Paul PHX 10.1
6. Robert Williams III BOS 10.0
7. Jae Crowder PHX 9.9
8. Devin Booker PHX 9.7
9. Deandre Ayton PHX 9.6
10. Cameron Payne PHX 9.5

So what *exactly* are we basing this "top ten" on?

I mean, that list should make you happy, since there are two Celts players in there, no?

I don't even know how to respond to this.

Horrible. Take a lap.

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