Better Player Right Now: Stephen Curry or Jokic

[dhsilv2]

We saw him get stopped vs the Suns, Warriors and Lakers late in those series. He was completely abused defensively at the end of the 4th on a regular basis vs the Warriors this post season. CP3 also had his best series of his entire career abusing Joker on switches last post season as well.

The jokic we saw last year is unlike any other version we've seen. He made a massive improvement in his game. And again his TEAM was destroyed on defense. Lets not turn this into another Gobert can't defend in the playoffs misconception.

Wrong. He himself was abused defensively every 4th quarter vs the Warriors. Every time he was switched on the perimeter, he was BBQ chicken by either Curry or Poole. It meant either easy buckets or poor misses.

First off, everyone knows that he was shredded beef and not chicken. You're just being absurd with that one. Second, Curry does this against every big man. He did it against the celtics, but the celtics defense was MORE than good enough to win that series. Defense requires all 5 guys to do their part and coaches to set proper plans. The nuggets didn't have the personnel to defend the warriors nor did their coaches do a great job against the warriors.

[Impuniti]

The jokic we saw last year is unlike any other version we've seen. He made a massive improvement in his game. And again his TEAM was destroyed on defense. Lets not turn this into another Gobert can't defend in the playoffs misconception.

Wrong. He himself was abused defensively every 4th quarter vs the Warriors. Every time he was switched on the perimeter, he was BBQ chicken by either Curry or Poole. It meant either easy buckets or poor misses.

First off, everyone knows that he was shredded beef and not chicken. You're just being absurd with that one. Second, Curry does this against every big man. He did it against the celtics, but the celtics defense was MORE than good enough to win that series. Defense requires all 5 guys to do their part and coaches to set proper plans. The nuggets didn't have the personnel to defend the warriors nor did their coaches do a great job against the warriors.

The point is it was a lot easier vs Joker than Celtics. With Timelord on, he really wasn't anywhere near as dominant around the rim, he got blocked twice by TL in game 6 alone. Boston played Steph straight on for 4 games and their bigs did about as ok a job on him. The difference vs Joker is that he was flat out garbage defensively. He didn't just get beat, he got abused. Again. and again. and again. and again. It was easy money every time in the 4th, P&R, bring Joker up, and you got either
1. wide open 3
2. easy layup
3. wide, wide open guy once the entire defense collapses after Joker is left in another island in the perimeter

This is why I said his defense was similar to the cones the Mavs had set out in the perimeter from their centers vs the Warriors.


Would love to see a #1 option as a center finally make the NBA finals though. I'm not saying to win it, just make the finals. Don't want to add silly expectations here. It hasn't happened this (new) decade or the last, but who knows.. maybe we'll be lucky next year (or the year after that, or the year after that). If not, there's always the 2030s.

[Big J]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

[dhsilv2]

Wrong. He himself was abused defensively every 4th quarter vs the Warriors. Every time he was switched on the perimeter, he was BBQ chicken by either Curry or Poole. It meant either easy buckets or poor misses.

First off, everyone knows that he was shredded beef and not chicken. You're just being absurd with that one. Second, Curry does this against every big man. He did it against the celtics, but the celtics defense was MORE than good enough to win that series. Defense requires all 5 guys to do their part and coaches to set proper plans. The nuggets didn't have the personnel to defend the warriors nor did their coaches do a great job against the warriors.

The point is it was a lot easier vs Joker than Celtics. With Timelord on, he really wasn't anywhere near as dominant around the rim, he got blocked twice by TL in game 6 alone. Boston played Steph straight on for 4 games and their bigs did about as ok a job on him. The difference vs Joker is that he was flat out garbage defensively. He didn't just get beat, he got abused. Again. and again. and again. and again. It was easy money every time in the 4th, P&R, bring Joker up, and you got either
1. wide open 3
2. easy layup
3. wide, wide open guy once the entire defense collapses after Joker is left in another island in the perimeter

This is why I said his defense was similar to the cones the Mavs had set out in the perimeter from their centers vs the Warriors.


Would love to see a #1 option as a center finally make the NBA finals though. I'm not saying to win it, just make the finals. Don't want to add silly expectations here. It hasn't happened this (new) decade or the last, but who knows.. maybe we'll be lucky next year (or the year after that, or the year after that). If not, there's always the 2030s.

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

[The Rebel]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I think you ignore the fact that no center in the league can guard elite guards on the perimeter and continue to throw that out against Jokic, because facts don't matter to you.

If a team does not have perimeter defenders that can get through screens than they are going to struggle against the 3 point shooters. The Nuggets were top 5 in shots allowed at the rim, shooting percentage in the paint, turnovers created, passes deflected by a center, but nope the only thing that matters is that Jokic cannot contain Curry by himself, forget the fact that no center can do that, just like no PG can guard a elite Center in the paint.

[Letsgokings]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I don't like him. I think he's a big obnoxious puss

[Big J]

First off, everyone knows that he was shredded beef and not chicken. You're just being absurd with that one. Second, Curry does this against every big man. He did it against the celtics, but the celtics defense was MORE than good enough to win that series. Defense requires all 5 guys to do their part and coaches to set proper plans. The nuggets didn't have the personnel to defend the warriors nor did their coaches do a great job against the warriors.

The point is it was a lot easier vs Joker than Celtics. With Timelord on, he really wasn't anywhere near as dominant around the rim, he got blocked twice by TL in game 6 alone. Boston played Steph straight on for 4 games and their bigs did about as ok a job on him. The difference vs Joker is that he was flat out garbage defensively. He didn't just get beat, he got abused. Again. and again. and again. and again. It was easy money every time in the 4th, P&R, bring Joker up, and you got either
1. wide open 3
2. easy layup
3. wide, wide open guy once the entire defense collapses after Joker is left in another island in the perimeter

This is why I said his defense was similar to the cones the Mavs had set out in the perimeter from their centers vs the Warriors.


Would love to see a #1 option as a center finally make the NBA finals though. I'm not saying to win it, just make the finals. Don't want to add silly expectations here. It hasn't happened this (new) decade or the last, but who knows.. maybe we'll be lucky next year (or the year after that, or the year after that). If not, there's always the 2030s.

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

There’s only so much that good defenders can do when a guy gets blown by repeatedly. It forces defensive rotations, lead to an open shot with a pass or 2.

[Big J]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I think you ignore the fact that no center in the league can guard elite guards on the perimeter and continue to throw that out against Jokic, because facts don't matter to you.

If a team does not have perimeter defenders that can get through screens than they are going to struggle against the 3 point shooters. The Nuggets were top 5 in shots allowed at the rim, shooting percentage in the paint, turnovers created, passes deflected by a center, but nope the only thing that matters is that Jokic cannot contain Curry by himself, forget the fact that no center can do that, just like no PG can guard a elite Center in the paint.

It’s not just that he can’t defend the perimeter. It’s that he gets cooked so badly every time that the other team feels like it. At least Horford & Timelord made him work and didn’t give up a layup every single time they were isolated on him.

[dhsilv2]

The point is it was a lot easier vs Joker than Celtics. With Timelord on, he really wasn't anywhere near as dominant around the rim, he got blocked twice by TL in game 6 alone. Boston played Steph straight on for 4 games and their bigs did about as ok a job on him. The difference vs Joker is that he was flat out garbage defensively. He didn't just get beat, he got abused. Again. and again. and again. and again. It was easy money every time in the 4th, P&R, bring Joker up, and you got either
1. wide open 3
2. easy layup
3. wide, wide open guy once the entire defense collapses after Joker is left in another island in the perimeter

This is why I said his defense was similar to the cones the Mavs had set out in the perimeter from their centers vs the Warriors.


Would love to see a #1 option as a center finally make the NBA finals though. I'm not saying to win it, just make the finals. Don't want to add silly expectations here. It hasn't happened this (new) decade or the last, but who knows.. maybe we'll be lucky next year (or the year after that, or the year after that). If not, there's always the 2030s.

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

There’s only so much that good defenders can do when a guy gets blown by repeatedly. It forces defensive rotations, lead to an open shot with a pass or 2.

You're right. You want to avoid letting Jokic end up in iso on Curry. There's a limit to this and without a doubt Jokic is going to make your team's total defense vs Curry worse than if you had someone more mobile. I don't see a nuggets team turning into the number 1 defense with Jokic. But there are levels to these things. Jokic's offense is more than enough to makeup for some defensive issues if he's given the right structure around him.

He doesn't have that right now.

[Big J]

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

There’s only so much that good defenders can do when a guy gets blown by repeatedly. It forces defensive rotations, lead to an open shot with a pass or 2.

You're right. You want to avoid letting Jokic end up in iso on Curry. There's a limit to this and without a doubt Jokic is going to make your team's total defense vs Curry worse than if you had someone more mobile. I don't see a nuggets team turning into the number 1 defense with Jokic. But there are levels to these things. Jokic's offense is more than enough to makeup for some defensive issues if he's given the right structure around him.

He doesn't have that right now.

Yea, I won’t deny that Jokic is great, it’s just that we’re comparing him to Curry who doesn’t have the same defensive limitations. Teams tried hunting Curry on defense and he more than held up.

[FlatearthZorro]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

His defensive stats are better than Doncic's, who according to everyone is a top 5 player?

[Big J]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

His defensive stats are better than Doncic's, who according to everyone is a top 5 player?

Yea, Jokic is a top 5 player also, but Curry is top 1 or 2 right now.

[dhsilv2]

There’s only so much that good defenders can do when a guy gets blown by repeatedly. It forces defensive rotations, lead to an open shot with a pass or 2.

You're right. You want to avoid letting Jokic end up in iso on Curry. There's a limit to this and without a doubt Jokic is going to make your team's total defense vs Curry worse than if you had someone more mobile. I don't see a nuggets team turning into the number 1 defense with Jokic. But there are levels to these things. Jokic's offense is more than enough to makeup for some defensive issues if he's given the right structure around him.

He doesn't have that right now.

Yea, I won’t deny that Jokic is great, it’s just that we’re comparing him to Curry who doesn’t have the same defensive limitations. Teams tried hunting Curry on defense and he more than held up.

Curry has different limitations. But curry has a team around him that won't let offensive stars spend time working him. His teammates aren't getting blown by either. If you put curry on a worse defensive team, the results would make his defense look worse than it is too.

[Impuniti]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

His defensive stats are better than Doncic's, who according to everyone is a top 5 player?

Depends who you ask. The B2B MVP is 100% a top 5 players (he's 3rd best for me), and Luka isn't top 5 yet albeit is getting closer. Luka hasn't done much to be above the Joker in any listing, but this is the same guy the media has been prepping as the #1 MVP every year for 4 straight seasons now.

[Impuniti]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I think you ignore the fact that no center in the league can guard elite guards on the perimeter and continue to throw that out against Jokic, because facts don't matter to you.

If a team does not have perimeter defenders that can get through screens than they are going to struggle against the 3 point shooters. The Nuggets were top 5 in shots allowed at the rim, shooting percentage in the paint, turnovers created, passes deflected by a center, but nope the only thing that matters is that Jokic cannot contain Curry by himself, forget the fact that no center can do that, just like no PG can guard a elite Center in the paint.

Which is why a #1 guy as a center has yet to make an NBA finals since 2009, 14 years ago. Let alone win it.

Centers get used and abused and are unable to control games the way other positions can. Jokic is the closest outlier due to his insane playmaking/passing (and why it's insulting when people insinuate Embiid is better), but his limitations just like all other elite centers will always be there with him. Even when MPJ & Murray are back.

..

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

You can talk about the team all you want, but Timelord is a much better defender than Jokic. I'd say Al on the 5 was as well this postseason. Celtics have two guys when they play the 5 who can defend better, with Timelord being a significantly better defender even when he's playing injured.

You can talk about team defense and better guards are going to switch better on screens which is true, but a coach for the first time in NBA playoff history had the balls to let Curry beat his guys without trapping.. at least for the first 4 games. In those games their centers were still on an island. They still defended better late in the game than Jokic did.

[Woodsanity]

Swap teams and Warriors don't win a title with Jokic instead of Curry. End of story.

Swap teams and Nuggets don't even make the playoffs.

[Big J]

You're right. You want to avoid letting Jokic end up in iso on Curry. There's a limit to this and without a doubt Jokic is going to make your team's total defense vs Curry worse than if you had someone more mobile. I don't see a nuggets team turning into the number 1 defense with Jokic. But there are levels to these things. Jokic's offense is more than enough to makeup for some defensive issues if he's given the right structure around him.

He doesn't have that right now.

Yea, I won’t deny that Jokic is great, it’s just that we’re comparing him to Curry who doesn’t have the same defensive limitations. Teams tried hunting Curry on defense and he more than held up.

Curry has different limitations. But curry has a team around him that won't let offensive stars spend time working him. His teammates aren't getting blown by either. If you put curry on a worse defensive team, the results would make his defense look worse than it is too.

Curry was isolated on switches multiple times against Jayson Tatum on the finals and he more than held up. His teammates were not giving him help on those matchups either. The fact is it’s much easier to exploit a center with mobility issues than it is a strong quick guard like Curry.

[PizzaSteve]

Similar tier in terms of on court impact. Both MVP level personal impact. Curry with the better overall career and peak and Jokic not as involved in recruiting/retaining talent and creating his team's winning culture as much, which is an under rated aspect of winning.

Challenge Jokic to go get a Durant or similar to join up in Denver, and he could join the LBJ, Curry top Tier bus drivers. Its no accident Klay doesnt leave, Green doesnt leave, Looney gows into an effective big, Igguadala rejoins, CP2 comes back to play with broken elbow, etc.

[dhsilv2]

I think Joker gets overrated because people like his personality, and want him to be good. Unfortunately his limitations on defense are just too great to overcome. Jokic defenders will throw out that it’s his teammates fault, but in reality when you have a center who is so easily exploited on that end it wrecks your entire defensive scheme, and there is nothing that can be done about it.

I think you ignore the fact that no center in the league can guard elite guards on the perimeter and continue to throw that out against Jokic, because facts don't matter to you.

If a team does not have perimeter defenders that can get through screens than they are going to struggle against the 3 point shooters. The Nuggets were top 5 in shots allowed at the rim, shooting percentage in the paint, turnovers created, passes deflected by a center, but nope the only thing that matters is that Jokic cannot contain Curry by himself, forget the fact that no center can do that, just like no PG can guard a elite Center in the paint.

Which is why a #1 guy as a center has yet to make an NBA finals since 2009, 14 years ago. Let alone win it.

Centers get used and abused and are unable to control games the way other positions can. Jokic is the closest outlier due to his insane playmaking/passing (and why it's insulting when people insinuate Embiid is better), but his limitations just like all other elite centers will always be there with him. Even when MPJ & Murray are back.

..

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

You can talk about the team all you want, but Timelord is a much better defender than Jokic. I'd say Al on the 5 was as well this postseason. Celtics have two guys when they play the 5 who can defend better, with Timelord being a significantly better defender even when he's playing injured.

You can talk about team defense and better guards are going to switch better on screens which is true, but a coach for the first time in NBA playoff history had the balls to let Curry beat his guys without trapping.. at least for the first 4 games. In those games their centers were still on an island. They still defended better late in the game than Jokic did.

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

[dhsilv2]

Yea, I won’t deny that Jokic is great, it’s just that we’re comparing him to Curry who doesn’t have the same defensive limitations. Teams tried hunting Curry on defense and he more than held up.

Curry has different limitations. But curry has a team around him that won't let offensive stars spend time working him. His teammates aren't getting blown by either. If you put curry on a worse defensive team, the results would make his defense look worse than it is too.

Curry was isolated on switches multiple times against Jayson Tatum on the finals and he more than held up. His teammates were not giving him help on those matchups either. The fact is it’s much easier to exploit a center with mobility issues than it is a strong quick guard like Curry.

Tatum was missing good looks...