If you could re do the Cade, Green and Mobley draft would you go differently

[Scalabrine]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

His Peake is a the best and most versatile defender in the nba with the potential to be a good multi time defensive player of the year . Jackson can hardly sniff that

Jackson was what 3rd in DPOY last year? He got some first place votes to I think. The only reason Jackson wont win DPOY is because he plays in Memphis, and even then, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he wins a few.

[Tha Cynic]

I think it's Mobley and Barnes at the top and the rest can fight for the next 2 or 3 spots. None of the other players have shown anything to warrant these high ceilings so far.

Barnes and Mobley came into this league very raw and put up great offensive numbers. Where they really excel is their basketball IQ and the way they can impact the game in multiple ways including defense. Mobley has defense down and anyone who doesn't watch Barnes (as clear by the fact that he was not even mentioned as an option to start this thread), doesn't know that Barnes is a great passer and that's where he will mostly excel. The two players also play with a different set of expectations because both of their teams are expected to fight for mid to top spots in the eastern Conference playoffs. They won't get the same reps as the other players on offense but they will learn how to win more.

I don't see anything special with Caden, Green or Wagner. There are players all over the league with their skillset and makeup.

[QingJames]

The team thats gonna win the championship is the team that has someone capable to be a 30ppg scorer who’s playing on a team with elite defense mostly because of his teammates.

Except this is contradicted by the last two decades of NBA postseason basketball. Who was the best player on championship teams over those years? Has it usually been a high-volume scoring guard who is also a bad defender?

2022: Steph Curry. Clearly an aberration and Green will never be the best shooter in NBA history, but Rockets fans can dream, I guess.
2021: Giannis (F)
2020: LeBron OR AD (F/C)
2019: Kawhi (F)
2018: Durant (F)
2017: Durant (F)
2016: LeBron (F)
2015: Curry (G)
2014: Really a championship by committee, but Kawhi got the FMVP so let's go with him. (F)
2013: LeBron (F)
2012: LeBron (F)
2011: Dirk (F)
2010: Kobe (G, but a great defender)
2009: Kobe (G)
2008: Pierce (F)
2007: Can't argue with the fact that Parker won the FMVP. Don't think he was the best player on that team, but if you want to make the argument that a guard can be the best player on the championship team, this is the one. Although a very different player from Green, obviously.
2006: Wade (G, but an excellent defender)
2005: Duncan (F/C)
2004: Weird team, hard to pinpoint the single best player on it. Pretty big aberration in terms of what it usually takes to win a title. Either way, all the candidates were great defenders, but Billups won the FMVP so let's say this one goes to a guard.
2003: Duncan (F/C)
2002: Shaq (C)
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

Okay, so of the last 22 title winners, approximately 6 have been led by guards. Of those guards, one is the best shooter in NBA history (Green will never equal or surpass Curry in this skill) while being a neutral defender (which I think Green can get to). The other 4 title teams had great defensive guards as their best players (although you can definitely make the argument Kobe was not a great defender in 2010). So unless you think Green is going to become one of the best defensive guards in the NBA (he isn't), then you have to hope he can become as good as 2010 Kobe Bryant to have confidence he can be the best player on a title team.

It ain't happening.

[Onlytimewilltel]

Wow, now I'm a "modern hipster" ... lol. I'll wager that I'm both older and have been following competitive basketball for longer than you. Heck, I might have been following competitive basketball for longer than you have been alive - soon to be five decades.


Still, aside from your personal slights ... I agree with the other guy you are arguing with ... your point is entirely theoretical ... it hasn't happened and maybe never will. No, Curry, Ja and Booker aren't failures ... but they aren't Giannis or the Joker either. There's another thread going - pointing out that Booker never even had a sniff at a deep playoff run before Paul and other defensive minded guys were added. Volume scorers don't win without help. Keep dreaming.

All I said is guys who rely primarily on athletics or "dribble separation" to be great are one injury away from being average ...

... and now I'm a hipster.

No one wins without help, ?

Of course Booker needed help around him and good defenders to get to the finals. So did Kobe Bryant. So did Steph Curry, You gotta have a little bit of everything on the team, some balance. I would have taken Mobley over green my self, but it’s silly to say volume scorers don’t win without help when that statement applies to absolutely all star players, even lebron James and Michael Jordan.

Okay, you keep making my point, but acting like it's an argument ... "Lebron James and Michael Jordan" are "two-way" players. Scottie Barnes and Evan Mobley already are "two way" players ... but maybe not fully formed ones yet.

For me, Jalen Green isn't a two way player yet. He's young, maybe he'll become a great one. Steph must be seen to have the same weakness - due to his size and slight build (short guys can guard effectively - watch Klow and check out his numbers) - but most guys can't shoot like that ... and maybe Steph is playing harder on D last year and has a bad rap. Still, Kobe - "two way" player ... MAJOR "two way" player.


Why not draft a two-way star instead of taking the chance when Scottie is right there?

I already told you I wouldn’t have drafted green, I would have went Mobley (because I like his two way potential ).

The whole comment was your statement of “Booker needed help before going deep in playoffs” is dumb. All those guys “needed help”. Two way players or not, they all needed help. Agreed?

[76ciology]

The team thats gonna win the championship is the team that has someone capable to be a 30ppg scorer who’s playing on a team with elite defense mostly because of his teammates.

Except this is contradicted by the last two decades of NBA postseason basketball. Who was the best player on championship teams over those years? Has it usually been a high-volume scoring guard who is also a bad defender?

2022: Steph Curry. Clearly an aberration and Green will never be the best shooter in NBA history, but Rockets fans can dream, I guess.
2021: Giannis (F)
2020: LeBron OR AD (F/C)
2019: Kawhi (F)
2018: Durant (F)
2017: Durant (F)
2016: LeBron (F)
2015: Curry (G)
2014: Really a championship by committee, but Kawhi got the FMVP so let's go with him. (F)
2013: LeBron (F)
2012: LeBron (F)
2011: Dirk (F)
2010: Kobe (G, but a great defender)
2009: Kobe (G)
2008: Pierce (F)
2007: Can't argue with the fact that Parker won the FMVP. Don't think he was the best player on that team, but if you want to make the argument that a guard can be the best player on the championship team, this is the one. Although a very different player from Green, obviously.
2006: Wade (G, but an excellent defender)
2005: Duncan (F/C)
2004: Weird team, hard to pinpoint the single best player on it. Pretty big aberration in terms of what it usually takes to win a title. Either way, all the candidates were great defenders, but Billups won the FMVP so let's say this one goes to a guard.
2003: Duncan (F/C)
2002: Shaq (C)
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

Okay, so of the last 22 title winners, approximately 6 have been led by guards. Of those guards, one is the best shooter in NBA history (Green will never equal or surpass Curry in this skill) while being a neutral defender (which I think Green can get to). The other 4 title teams had great defensive guards as their best players (although you can definitely make the argument Kobe was not a great defender in 2010). So unless you think Green is going to become one of the best defensive guards in the NBA (he isn't), then you have to hope he can become as good as 2010 Kobe Bryant to have confidence he can be the best player on a title team.

It ain't happening.

Also notice that post ups are declining?

F and Cs generate consistent hight TS% offense back then, but this gets less and less that if you watch todays bigs like Jokic, Embiid or even Wembayama they now all play like guards.

Nowadays guards can generate high volume of pts with high TS% consistently when the playoffs has become just a PnR and ISO contest, unlike the old days where you need to have Duncan and Shaq and was a post-up contest

[Primedeion]

The team thats gonna win the championship is the team that has someone capable to be a 30ppg scorer who’s playing on a team with elite defense mostly because of his teammates.

Except this is contradicted by the last two decades of NBA postseason basketball. Who was the best player on championship teams over those years? Has it usually been a high-volume scoring guard who is also a bad defender?

2022: Steph Curry. Clearly an aberration and Green will never be the best shooter in NBA history, but Rockets fans can dream, I guess.
2021: Giannis (F)
2020: LeBron OR AD (F/C)
2019: Kawhi (F)
2018: Durant (F)
2017: Durant (F)
2016: LeBron (F)
2015: Curry (G)
2014: Really a championship by committee, but Kawhi got the FMVP so let's go with him. (F)
2013: LeBron (F)
2012: LeBron (F)
2011: Dirk (F)
2010: Kobe (G, but a great defender)
2009: Kobe (G)
2008: Pierce (F)
2007: Can't argue with the fact that Parker won the FMVP. Don't think he was the best player on that team, but if you want to make the argument that a guard can be the best player on the championship team, this is the one. Although a very different player from Green, obviously.
2006: Wade (G, but an excellent defender)
2005: Duncan (F/C)
2004: Weird team, hard to pinpoint the single best player on it. Pretty big aberration in terms of what it usually takes to win a title. Either way, all the candidates were great defenders, but Billups won the FMVP so let's say this one goes to a guard.
2003: Duncan (F/C)
2002: Shaq (C)
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

Okay, so of the last 22 title winners, approximately 6 have been led by guards. Of those guards, one is the best shooter in NBA history (Green will never equal or surpass Curry in this skill) while being a neutral defender (which I think Green can get to). The other 4 title teams had great defensive guards as their best players (although you can definitely make the argument Kobe was not a great defender in 2010). So unless you think Green is going to become one of the best defensive guards in the NBA (he isn't), then you have to hope he can become as good as 2010 Kobe Bryant to have confidence he can be the best player on a title team.

It ain't happening.

2010 Kobe had a +1.3 DRAPM as a guard. He was absolutely one of the best defensive guards in the league.

[TheLand13]

Im not picking a big who can’t be a star on offense over two potential star perimeter players who can shoot, score and create on offense.

What’s Mobley’s ceiling Jaren Jackson Jr.?

You’re taking Jaren Jackson Jr. over two likely 25ppg guards?

His Peake is a the best and most versatile defender in the nba with the potential to be a good multi time defensive player of the year . Jackson can hardly sniff that

Jackson was what 3rd in DPOY last year? He got some first place votes to I think. The only reason Jackson wont win DPOY is because he plays in Memphis, and even then, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he wins a few.

Why would playing in Memphis prevent Jackson from winning DPOY?

[Scalabrine]

His Peake is a the best and most versatile defender in the nba with the potential to be a good multi time defensive player of the year . Jackson can hardly sniff that

Jackson was what 3rd in DPOY last year? He got some first place votes to I think. The only reason Jackson wont win DPOY is because he plays in Memphis, and even then, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he wins a few.

Why would playing in Memphis prevent Jackson from winning DPOY?

I just feel like Memphis is constantly overlooked by the media and those awards are often media narrative driven. And before anyone says it, I know Marc Gasol won DPOY at one point, but I think that he would have won more than 1 if he had played for some other teams that get more coverage.

[TheLand13]

Jackson was what 3rd in DPOY last year? He got some first place votes to I think. The only reason Jackson wont win DPOY is because he plays in Memphis, and even then, it wouldn't surprise me at all if he wins a few.

Why would playing in Memphis prevent Jackson from winning DPOY?

I just feel like Memphis is constantly overlooked by the media and those awards are often media narrative driven. And before anyone says it, I know Marc Gasol won DPOY at one point, but I think that he would have won more than 1 if he had played for some other teams that get more coverage.

I mean... not only did Marc Gasol win it, but he won it over LeBron while not even making first team all defense. I know it was just one time, but that one time pretty much kills your argument due to the circumstances surrounding it.

[jasonxxx102]

The team thats gonna win the championship is the team that has someone capable to be a 30ppg scorer who’s playing on a team with elite defense mostly because of his teammates.

Except this is contradicted by the last two decades of NBA postseason basketball. Who was the best player on championship teams over those years? Has it usually been a high-volume scoring guard who is also a bad defender?

2022: Steph Curry. Clearly an aberration and Green will never be the best shooter in NBA history, but Rockets fans can dream, I guess.
2021: Giannis (F)
2020: LeBron OR AD (F/C)
2019: Kawhi (F)
2018: Durant (F)
2017: Durant (F)
2016: LeBron (F)
2015: Curry (G)
2014: Really a championship by committee, but Kawhi got the FMVP so let's go with him. (F)
2013: LeBron (F)
2012: LeBron (F)
2011: Dirk (F)
2010: Kobe (G, but a great defender)
2009: Kobe (G)
2008: Pierce (F)
2007: Can't argue with the fact that Parker won the FMVP. Don't think he was the best player on that team, but if you want to make the argument that a guard can be the best player on the championship team, this is the one. Although a very different player from Green, obviously.
2006: Wade (G, but an excellent defender)
2005: Duncan (F/C)
2004: Weird team, hard to pinpoint the single best player on it. Pretty big aberration in terms of what it usually takes to win a title. Either way, all the candidates were great defenders, but Billups won the FMVP so let's say this one goes to a guard.
2003: Duncan (F/C)
2002: Shaq (C)
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

Okay, so of the last 22 title winners, approximately 6 have been led by guards. Of those guards, one is the best shooter in NBA history (Green will never equal or surpass Curry in this skill) while being a neutral defender (which I think Green can get to). The other 4 title teams had great defensive guards as their best players (although you can definitely make the argument Kobe was not a great defender in 2010). So unless you think Green is going to become one of the best defensive guards in the NBA (he isn't), then you have to hope he can become as good as 2010 Kobe Bryant to have confidence he can be the best player on a title team.

It ain't happening.

Also notice that post ups are declining?

F and Cs generate consistent hight TS% offense back then, but this gets less and less that if you watch todays bigs like Jokic, Embiid or even Wembayama they now all play like guards.

Nowadays guards can generate high volume of pts with high TS% consistently when the playoffs has become just a PnR and ISO contest, unlike the old days where you need to have Duncan and Shaq and was a post-up contest

You’re essentially saying “it’s different this time” and yet the best players on most of the best title contending teams are the same archetype of elite 2 way forward / big.

Trae is the best volume scoring guard in the leagu who plays no defense who also gives you elite playmaking, surrounded by great defensive players and the Hawks still aren’t very good.

The only team you could really argue is Booker w/ Phoenix.

[BK_2020]

Wow, now I'm a "modern hipster" ... lol. I'll wager that I'm both older and have been following competitive basketball for longer than you. Heck, I might have been following competitive basketball for longer than you have been alive - soon to be five decades.


Still, aside from your personal slights ... I agree with the other guy you are arguing with ... your point is entirely theoretical ... it hasn't happened and maybe never will. No, Curry, Ja and Booker aren't failures ... but they aren't Giannis or the Joker either. There's another thread going - pointing out that Booker never even had a sniff at a deep playoff run before Paul and other defensive minded guys were added. Volume scorers don't win without help. Keep dreaming.

All I said is guys who rely primarily on athletics or "dribble separation" to be great are one injury away from being average ...

... and now I'm a hipster.

No one wins without help, ?

Of course Booker needed help around him and good defenders to get to the finals. So did Kobe Bryant. So did Steph Curry, You gotta have a little bit of everything on the team, some balance. I would have taken Mobley over green my self, but it’s silly to say volume scorers don’t win without help when that statement applies to absolutely all star players, even lebron James and Michael Jordan.

Okay, you keep making my point, but acting like it's an argument ... "Lebron James and Michael Jordan" are "two-way" players. Scottie Barnes and Evan Mobley already are "two way" players ... but maybe not fully formed ones yet.

For me, Jalen Green isn't a two way player yet. He's young, maybe he'll become a great one. Steph must be seen to have the same weakness - due to his size and slight build (short guys can guard effectively - watch Klow and check out his numbers) - but most guys can't shoot like that ... and maybe Steph is playing harder on D last year and has a bad rap. Still, Kobe - "two way" player ... MAJOR "two way" player.


Why not draft a two-way star instead of taking the chance when Scottie is right there?

If Scottie can be a two way player for scoring 14 a game on .500 TS% then Jalen Green is a two way player too.

[JDR720]

Even in todays league, you still take F's/C's over guards.

Would anyone trade Giannis, Joker, Embiid, Doncic (technically a PG, but he is 6'8) for the best guards of roughly the same age?

Even if those players play more like guards (on the perimeter) they're still the only players who can be dominate on both offense and defense. And dominate in the paint at the same time.

[Scalabrine]

Why would playing in Memphis prevent Jackson from winning DPOY?

I just feel like Memphis is constantly overlooked by the media and those awards are often media narrative driven. And before anyone says it, I know Marc Gasol won DPOY at one point, but I think that he would have won more than 1 if he had played for some other teams that get more coverage.

I mean... not only did Marc Gasol win it, but he won it over LeBron while not even making first team all defense. I know it was just one time, but that one time pretty much kills your argument due to the circumstances surrounding it.

Considering that he was the most impactful defender in the league for multiple years I think it still holds some weight. Do you not agree that it's a narrative driven award?

[toooskies]

The team thats gonna win the championship is the team that has someone capable to be a 30ppg scorer who’s playing on a team with elite defense mostly because of his teammates.

Except this is contradicted by the last two decades of NBA postseason basketball. Who was the best player on championship teams over those years? Has it usually been a high-volume scoring guard who is also a bad defender?

2022: Steph Curry. Clearly an aberration and Green will never be the best shooter in NBA history, but Rockets fans can dream, I guess.
2021: Giannis (F)
2020: LeBron OR AD (F/C)
2019: Kawhi (F)
2018: Durant (F)
2017: Durant (F)
2016: LeBron (F)
2015: Curry (G)
2014: Really a championship by committee, but Kawhi got the FMVP so let's go with him. (F)
2013: LeBron (F)
2012: LeBron (F)
2011: Dirk (F)
2010: Kobe (G, but a great defender)
2009: Kobe (G)
2008: Pierce (F)
2007: Can't argue with the fact that Parker won the FMVP. Don't think he was the best player on that team, but if you want to make the argument that a guard can be the best player on the championship team, this is the one. Although a very different player from Green, obviously.
2006: Wade (G, but an excellent defender)
2005: Duncan (F/C)
2004: Weird team, hard to pinpoint the single best player on it. Pretty big aberration in terms of what it usually takes to win a title. Either way, all the candidates were great defenders, but Billups won the FMVP so let's say this one goes to a guard.
2003: Duncan (F/C)
2002: Shaq (C)
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

Okay, so of the last 22 title winners, approximately 6 have been led by guards. Of those guards, one is the best shooter in NBA history (Green will never equal or surpass Curry in this skill) while being a neutral defender (which I think Green can get to). The other 4 title teams had great defensive guards as their best players (although you can definitely make the argument Kobe was not a great defender in 2010). So unless you think Green is going to become one of the best defensive guards in the NBA (he isn't), then you have to hope he can become as good as 2010 Kobe Bryant to have confidence he can be the best player on a title team.

It ain't happening.

Just wanted to mention that Tony Parker was probably considered the best player on the 2014 Spurs at the time, making 2nd team all-NBA. As long as you are going out of your way to take 2007 away from him.

[toooskies]

My take on this is that the odds are against you winning a title as the #1 option if you're not a top 30 player all-time. There are plenty of 25ppg scorers who aren't going to win you a championship as your best player-- if Green ends up something like Bradley Beal, that's a very good player but you aren't winning anything.

So what's the most likely top 30 comp to come true? Barnes as peak Kawhi? Mobley as KG? Cade or Green as Kobe?

But maybe Barnes is just Iguodala-ish. Maybe Mobley is just Camby-ish. Maybe Cade and Green are Mitch Richmond or Gilbert Arenas. There's more to leading a team to a title than being the #1 option or being a DPOY candidate, and it makes team construction easier if you can be both.

(Note that a lot of those title-winning forwards are also DPOY candidates at some point, whether it's Giannis, LeBron, Kawhi, KD...)

[TheLand13]

I just feel like Memphis is constantly overlooked by the media and those awards are often media narrative driven. And before anyone says it, I know Marc Gasol won DPOY at one point, but I think that he would have won more than 1 if he had played for some other teams that get more coverage.

I mean... not only did Marc Gasol win it, but he won it over LeBron while not even making first team all defense. I know it was just one time, but that one time pretty much kills your argument due to the circumstances surrounding it.

Considering that he was the most impactful defender in the league for multiple years I think it still holds some weight. Do you not agree that it's a narrative driven award?

Joakim Noah won the damn thing.

So no.

[Scalabrine]

I mean... not only did Marc Gasol win it, but he won it over LeBron while not even making first team all defense. I know it was just one time, but that one time pretty much kills your argument due to the circumstances surrounding it.

Considering that he was the most impactful defender in the league for multiple years I think it still holds some weight. Do you not agree that it's a narrative driven award?

Joakim Noah won the damn thing.

So no.

I don't understand your point. Care to elaborate? Joakim Noah was an MVP candidate one or two years.

[76ciology]

Even in todays league, you still take F's/C's over guards.

Would anyone trade Giannis, Joker, Embiid, Doncic (technically a PG, but he is 6'8) for the best guards of roughly the same age?

Even if those players play more like guards (on the perimeter) they're still the only players who can be dominate on both offense and defense. And dominate in the paint at the same time.

But these guys are 30ppg scorers, which is my point.

I know it will sound like F/C vs G discussion, because some guy change the goal post from 30ppg scorer to a position discussion.

[76ciology]

Except this is contradicted by the last two decades of NBA postseason basketball. Who was the best player on championship teams over those years? Has it usually been a high-volume scoring guard who is also a bad defender?

2022: Steph Curry. Clearly an aberration and Green will never be the best shooter in NBA history, but Rockets fans can dream, I guess.
2021: Giannis (F)
2020: LeBron OR AD (F/C)
2019: Kawhi (F)
2018: Durant (F)
2017: Durant (F)
2016: LeBron (F)
2015: Curry (G)
2014: Really a championship by committee, but Kawhi got the FMVP so let's go with him. (F)
2013: LeBron (F)
2012: LeBron (F)
2011: Dirk (F)
2010: Kobe (G, but a great defender)
2009: Kobe (G)
2008: Pierce (F)
2007: Can't argue with the fact that Parker won the FMVP. Don't think he was the best player on that team, but if you want to make the argument that a guard can be the best player on the championship team, this is the one. Although a very different player from Green, obviously.
2006: Wade (G, but an excellent defender)
2005: Duncan (F/C)
2004: Weird team, hard to pinpoint the single best player on it. Pretty big aberration in terms of what it usually takes to win a title. Either way, all the candidates were great defenders, but Billups won the FMVP so let's say this one goes to a guard.
2003: Duncan (F/C)
2002: Shaq (C)
2001: Shaq
2000: Shaq

Okay, so of the last 22 title winners, approximately 6 have been led by guards. Of those guards, one is the best shooter in NBA history (Green will never equal or surpass Curry in this skill) while being a neutral defender (which I think Green can get to). The other 4 title teams had great defensive guards as their best players (although you can definitely make the argument Kobe was not a great defender in 2010). So unless you think Green is going to become one of the best defensive guards in the NBA (he isn't), then you have to hope he can become as good as 2010 Kobe Bryant to have confidence he can be the best player on a title team.

It ain't happening.

Also notice that post ups are declining?

F and Cs generate consistent hight TS% offense back then, but this gets less and less that if you watch todays bigs like Jokic, Embiid or even Wembayama they now all play like guards.

Nowadays guards can generate high volume of pts with high TS% consistently when the playoffs has become just a PnR and ISO contest, unlike the old days where you need to have Duncan and Shaq and was a post-up contest

You’re essentially saying “it’s different this time” and yet the best players on most of the best title contending teams are the same archetype of elite 2 way forward / big.

Trae is the best volume scoring guard in the leagu who plays no defense who also gives you elite playmaking, surrounded by great defensive players and the Hawks still aren’t very good.

The only team you could really argue is Booker w/ Phoenix.

A lot of defense depends on your team.

Look at Gobert is right now and how bad he is looking on defense. Early in the season Sixers was playing bad defense with Embiid, then suddenly Sixers was like the 2nd best defensive team once Harden and Maxey sat out because of injury.

Look at Iverson or Isaiah Thomas was when he’s averaging 30 in the playoffs, but Celts/Sixers find a way to play defense around him.

Defense is very important, but you have multiple ways to deal with it via schemes and structuring your roster.

But you can’t win with Jordan Clarkson battling Kevin Durant in a tit for tat show iso scoring contest in the playoffs.

[76ciology]

The only argument i have for Mobley over Cade and Green is based on their current numbers. Where Cade is a piss poor inefficient scorer at 50TS% and Green is an inefficient scorer at 53TS% and has a 1:1 assist to TO ratio.