Suns complain about Giannis FT attempts after hacking him all night. Footage included.

[Pachinko_]

Your feet don’t need to be still but they are not irrelevant to your cylinder either. I wouldn’t even say he hits him in the chest, looks more shoulder in the clip.

If he moved his feet better, got across and got hit square in the chest then fair enough. But he wasn’t.

When you say need or don't need to be, really you're just speculating because the NBA has not actually said so in their rule book. They have left it open to interpretation, and I think that's what makes everybody angry, because they change the interpretation any time they feel like.

[nikster]

2nd isn't that bad for a charge call for the rules as they are, but I feel league needs to change the rules. Giannis is clearly dropping his shoulder with the intention of going straight through Craig. I don't care if he isn't in proper defensive position that should be offensive

Υeah but keep in mind if you change it for Giannis you have to change it for everybody.
If you say "I don't care about proper defensive position" people will start throwing body parts in front of people dribbling and it will be an offensive foul every time

I'll say it again: all those written or unwritten rules that people are talking about, "beat your man to the spot, set your feet, square up" etc have always existed in basketball for a reason. And the reason is that without them it's way too easy for an athlete to just throw himself on an offensive player as soon as he starts moving, and then he can't go anywhere.

In basketball both the offensive and defensive player are trying to occupy the same spot, there needs to be rules who this spot belongs to and exactly how we define "who got there first".

You can't just be running backwards or sideways as a defender and then all those spots are yours and nobody can touch them, that would be **** basketball to watch.

Sure, and i think dropping your shoulder and charging straight through a man is one of those unwritten rules. I am saying we should change it for everyone.

I don't disagree that a defender should be punished or disadvantaged for being out if position. I think on a normal drive thats 100% a foul. I just think the issue is Giannis didn't really do a basketball play. He dropped his shoulder with the intention of barreling through the guy rather than making a basketball play and getting fouled on his way to the basket. I see it in a similar situation to the rip through. Yes defenders should get punished in some ways for reaching, I don't think one of those ways is through rip through that are not at all a basketball game

[Phystic]

Lol this dude obsessed with legal guarding position and completely ignoring dropping the shoulder into the chest.

This isn't just a Giannis problem it's a league problem...

To me what Giannis does is no different than flopping. Where some guys drive and flop to sell contact Gianni drops his shoulder and seeks contact which should be a charge.

It's disgusting basketball and the league needs to do something bit we all know they won't...

The way offense is favored over defense is a joke. As a player it would be very frustrating.

What other unfair rules do just the suns face? I mean because they dont have quality backup centers its unfair other teams do right? So no more backup centers are allowed to play against the suns. You guys have any other suggestions so no one hurts the suns feel feels?

I would say give booker 8 fouls but they already did that and it did not matter in the finals, maybe he gets 10 fouls this time?

Where did he say it was only Suns?

Also one blown call on Booker and how many on Giannis?

Bucks beat the Suns, not arguing that. But trying to act like Giannis doesn't away with a TON is just ridiculous. And before you let your Suns hate twist what I'm saying, this is not specific to Suns, Giannis does the same thing against all teams. And I don't blame him, as they let him do it

[DB23]

Your feet don’t need to be still but they are not irrelevant to your cylinder either. I wouldn’t even say he hits him in the chest, looks more shoulder in the clip.

If he moved his feet better, got across and got hit square in the chest then fair enough. But he wasn’t.

When you say need or don't need to be, really you're just speculating because the NBA has not actually said so in their rule book. They have left it open to interpretation, and I think that's what makes everybody angry, because they change the interpretation any time they feel like.

I don’t think it’s speculating because;

1. It’s routinely called that way
2. The rule doesn’t say anything about having your feet set, so by that you can read it as not necessary

It’s obvs a hard call to officiate but also to write a clear rule for. Much like the handball rule in football, while not perfect, perhaps works best with an element of interpretation.

[Phystic]

Not going to get into all the ridiculousness that is this thread.

But he not only dropped his shoulder but you can see his right arm also pushes the defender.

And if he was so far out of position how did he take the shoulder in his chest?.

This isn't the 80s, you don't have to be stopped and flat footed to take a charge any more.

He's coming from Giannis's right side and giving him a bump. That's not legal guarding position. This isn't hard, freeze it at three seconds. Craig is late moving in front, he's moving sideways to get in the way. You don't need to be flat footed, but you DO need to be in front, not off to the side. Giannis is just entitled to that space as Craig and Giannis beats him to it.

I took your advice, paused it at three seconds. And confirmed what I said he dropped his shoulder.

Now pause it at 4 seconds and see giannis arm extend and push him. Both are fouls and don't require the defender to be in front of the offensive player.

[Pachinko_]

Sure, and i think dropping your shoulder and charging straight through a man is one of those unwritten rules. I am saying we should change it for everyone.

I don't disagree that a defender should be punished or disadvantaged for being out if position. I think on a normal drive thats 100% a foul. I just think the issue is Giannis didn't really do a basketball play. He dropped his shoulder with the intention of barreling through the guy rather than making a basketball play and getting fouled on his way to the basket. I see it in a similar situation to the rip through. Yes defenders should get punished in some ways for reaching, I don't think one of those ways is through rip through that are not at all a basketball game

Yeah, Giannis is dropping his shoulder to force the ref to punish the defender for being in a sloppy defensive position.
I'll gladly agree with everyone that Giannis needs to be called for palming, travelling, taking too long to shoot FTs, but not this.
Why? For these reasons:

- Other guys have defended Giannis properly with great sacrifice (see Grant Williams setting his feet and getting hit multiple times in the C's series last year), these guys need to be rewarded (and did) because this is solid and difficult D.
- Giannis is faster than anyone anywhere near his size, that also needs to be allowed to be translated in an advantage on the floor and rewarded.
- Craig is back pedalling and running sideways and throwing himself in the path of the offensive player, that is sloppy D and should not be rewarded, because God forbid if everyone starts doing the same.
- Other coaches have set up sophisticated group defenses and have managed to stop Giannis (see the Raptors series in 2019), this should be rewarded.
- Williams refuses to do the same and thinks he can get away by investing just one good, but not great defender against one of the best players in the world, that should not be rewarded because he's a great coach and he can do better than this.

[skones]

Not going to get into all the ridiculousness that is this thread.

But he not only dropped his shoulder but you can see his right arm also pushes the defender.

And if he was so far out of position how did he take the shoulder in his chest?.

This isn't the 80s, you don't have to be stopped and flat footed to take a charge any more.

He's coming from Giannis's right side and giving him a bump. That's not legal guarding position. This isn't hard, freeze it at three seconds. Craig is late moving in front, he's moving sideways to get in the way. You don't need to be flat footed, but you DO need to be in front, not off to the side. Giannis is just entitled to that space as Craig and Giannis beats him to it.

I took your advice, paused it at three seconds. And confirmed what I said he dropped his shoulder.

Now pause it at 4 seconds and see giannis arm extend and push him. Both are fouls and don't require the defender to be in front of the offensive player.

The foul occurs when Craig makes contact with Giannis with his chest, thus, the arm extension and push is null and void. Once the first foul is called, the subsequent one is no longer a valid play. If Craig didn't foul him first, yes, the extension and push would have been a foul. It doesn't matter if Giannis drops his shoulder, he's going in one direction, dropping your shoulder is NOT a foul in and of itself. Craig isn't established in a legal guarding position in front, he's off to the side. He's both chasing the play and angle late.

It's not all that arguable. Torrey Craig is NOT in front of Giannis when he makes contact with his chest.

[nikster]

Sure, and i think dropping your shoulder and charging straight through a man is one of those unwritten rules. I am saying we should change it for everyone.

I don't disagree that a defender should be punished or disadvantaged for being out if position. I think on a normal drive thats 100% a foul. I just think the issue is Giannis didn't really do a basketball play. He dropped his shoulder with the intention of barreling through the guy rather than making a basketball play and getting fouled on his way to the basket. I see it in a similar situation to the rip through. Yes defenders should get punished in some ways for reaching, I don't think one of those ways is through rip through that are not at all a basketball game

Yeah, Giannis is dropping his shoulder to force the ref to punish the defender for being in a sloppy defensive position.
I'll gladly agree with everyone that Giannis needs to be called for palming, travelling, taking too long to shoot FTs, but not this.
Why? For these reasons:

- Other guys have defended Giannis properly with great sacrifice (see Grant Williams setting his feet and getting hit multiple times in the C's series last year), these guys need to be rewarded (and did) because this is solid D.
- Giannis is faster than anyone anywhere near his size, that also needs to be allowed to be translated in an advantage on the floor and rewarded.
- Craig is back pedalling and running sideways and throwing himself in the path of the offensive player, that is sloppy D and should not be rewarded.
- Other coaches have set up sophisticated group defenses and have managed to stop Giannis (see the Raptors series in 2019), this should be rewarded.
- Williams refuses to do the same and thinks he can get away by just investing one (not particularly great) defender against one of the best players in the world, that should not be rewarded.

This type of blatant shoulder checks don't happen that often. I'd be surprised it was even once a game? There's a 100+ possessions every game for defenders to be rewarded for good defense, stopping giannis or keeping him out of the paint.

In this play there are a dozen different ways Giannis could have made an actual basketball play and got to take advantage of the defenses bad position to force the call.

It's the mindset that bothers me I guess. "My defenders out of position, I got an easy basket and/or he's fouling me as I try to score" it's "My defenders out of position, I'm gonna shoulder check him now because anything goes and the attempt on the basket is secondary" Same reason I hate those rip through shot attempts

[Pachinko_]

Your feet don’t need to be still but they are not irrelevant to your cylinder either. I wouldn’t even say he hits him in the chest, looks more shoulder in the clip.

If he moved his feet better, got across and got hit square in the chest then fair enough. But he wasn’t.

When you say need or don't need to be, really you're just speculating because the NBA has not actually said so in their rule book. They have left it open to interpretation, and I think that's what makes everybody angry, because they change the interpretation any time they feel like.

I don’t think it’s speculating because;

1. It’s routinely called that way
2. The rule doesn’t say anything about having your feet set, so by that you can read it as not necessary

It’s obvs a hard call to officiate but also to write a clear rule for. Much like the handball rule in football, while not perfect, perhaps works best with an element of interpretation.

But what does "routinely" mean exactly? 85% of the time? 70%? 51%? and who is counting exactly?
The NBA needs to be specific because as you can see in this thread people are making different interpretations.
Not saying it is not enough because with the same logic where does it say that it's forbidden to "drop your shoulder" when you're dribbling? It doesnt.

[Pachinko_]

This type of blatant shoulder checks don't happen that often. I'd be surprised it was even once a game? There's a 100+ possessions every game for defenders to be rewarded for good defense, stopping giannis or keeping him out of the paint.

In this play there are a dozen different ways Giannis could have made an actual basketball play and got to take advantage of the defenses bad position to force the call.

It's the mindset that bothers me I guess. "My defenders out of position, I got an easy basket and/or he's fouling me as I try to score" it's "My defenders out of position, I'm gonna shoulder check him now because anything goes and the attempt on the basket is secondary" Same reason I hate those rip through shot attempts

I understand that but at the same time teams are giving up trying to stop Giannis straight up, just fkn try and to stay with him and then try to block him, which honestly is what we came here to see at the end of the day. Just put your tallest fastest defender on him and make him defend properly, get up there and jump with him. Teams don't even try to do that any more. I have no interest in watching guys that look like midgets compared to Giannis trying to tangle themselves in his feet so they can complain about the rules later, that's not basketball.

[Packbuckman]

Sure, and i think dropping your shoulder and charging straight through a man is one of those unwritten rules. I am saying we should change it for everyone.

I don't disagree that a defender should be punished or disadvantaged for being out if position. I think on a normal drive thats 100% a foul. I just think the issue is Giannis didn't really do a basketball play. He dropped his shoulder with the intention of barreling through the guy rather than making a basketball play and getting fouled on his way to the basket. I see it in a similar situation to the rip through. Yes defenders should get punished in some ways for reaching, I don't think one of those ways is through rip through that are not at all a basketball game

Yeah, Giannis is dropping his shoulder to force the ref to punish the defender for being in a sloppy defensive position.
I'll gladly agree with everyone that Giannis needs to be called for palming, travelling, taking too long to shoot FTs, but not this.
Why? For these reasons:

- Other guys have defended Giannis properly with great sacrifice (see Grant Williams setting his feet and getting hit multiple times in the C's series last year), these guys need to be rewarded (and did) because this is solid D.
- Giannis is faster than anyone anywhere near his size, that also needs to be allowed to be translated in an advantage on the floor and rewarded.
- Craig is back pedalling and running sideways and throwing himself in the path of the offensive player, that is sloppy D and should not be rewarded.
- Other coaches have set up sophisticated group defenses and have managed to stop Giannis (see the Raptors series in 2019), this should be rewarded.
- Williams refuses to do the same and thinks he can get away by just investing one (not particularly great) defender against one of the best players in the world, that should not be rewarded.

This type of blatant shoulder checks don't happen that often. I'd be surprised it was even once a game? There's a 100+ possessions every game for defenders to be rewarded for good defense, stopping giannis or keeping him out of the paint.

In this play there are a dozen different ways Giannis could have made an actual basketball play and got to take advantage of the defenses bad position to force the call.

It's the mindset that bothers me I guess. "My defenders out of position, I got an easy basket and/or he's fouling me as I try to score" it's "My defenders out of position, I'm gonna shoulder check him now because anything goes and the attempt on the basket is secondary" Same reason I hate those rip through shot attempts

Yes he’s got the mindset of a running back that’s going to get nailed by a linebacker he lowers his shoulder to absorb contact and dish some out for all the hits he take I don’t blame him.
If the defensive players is out of position why would you let them just hack you why just because Giannis is bigger you get to hack the **** out of him.

[nikster]

This type of blatant shoulder checks don't happen that often. I'd be surprised it was even once a game? There's a 100+ possessions every game for defenders to be rewarded for good defense, stopping giannis or keeping him out of the paint.

In this play there are a dozen different ways Giannis could have made an actual basketball play and got to take advantage of the defenses bad position to force the call.

It's the mindset that bothers me I guess. "My defenders out of position, I got an easy basket and/or he's fouling me as I try to score" it's "My defenders out of position, I'm gonna shoulder check him now because anything goes and the attempt on the basket is secondary" Same reason I hate those rip through shot attempts

I understand that but at the same time teams are giving up trying to stop Giannis straight up, just fkn try and to stay with him and then try to block him, which honestly is what we came here to see at the end of the day. Just put your tallest fastest defender on him and make him defend properly, get up there and jump with him. Teams don't even try to do that any more. I have no interest in watching guys that look like midgets compared to Giannis trying to tangle themselves in his feet so they can complain about the rules later, that's not basketball.

I agree with all that. Guess I dont see him as often so I can understand your frustration with that last part. I just want to see players play to score. The rip through move, pump fake and jump into the guy, forcing a bump and chucking up a prayer.... Maybe I'm wrong but these kind of things just weren't nearly as prevalent in the past or in other leagues

[SkyBill40]

It's mind bending that anyone can think Giannis - a physical freak who plays with a relenting urge to get to the rim - and the Suns shooting mid range jump shots should get an equal amount of free throws.

The Suns do go to the basket quite a bit and still don't get calls. THAT is the problem and the reason why Williams is upset. Just admit to not watching the Suns play often and get your pass, dude. Seriously.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

I don't watch Suns games often. I did watch the specific game in question and I didn't see a single instance of an egregious non call on Booker. I did see him play with a pouty, whiny demeanor of someone who just had their lunch stolen by Jrue Holiday in the 4th quarter. Did you watch that Suns game?

Yes, I watched that game.

Sent from my [Samsung Z4 Fold] using RealGM mobile app

[KingFox]

Giannis is amazing but he definitely plows over guys sometimes and they're rarely going to call the offensive fouls that they should because he's a star. Lets be honest

[buckboy]

The **** are you talking about?

Complete nonsense.

The Bucks shot way more free throws. Look at the box score. The refs were asleep and not doing their job.

How did you get it into your head that the job of the refs is to balance free throw attempts between teams?

Right? What in the actual ****?

[UglyBugBall]

The **** are you talking about?

Complete nonsense.

The Bucks shot way more free throws. Look at the box score. The refs were asleep and not doing their job.

How did you get it into your head that the job of the refs is to balance free throw attempts between teams?

People don't invest in a game to have free throws decide it. The league has been making changes throughout the years to lessen the impact of free throws have in determining the outcome.

[Pachinko_]

Right. So if I start clotheslining people the refs shouldn't call a foul because that could disturb the balance of free throws in the game.

[Hsker4Life]

1. You can’t only look at the fouls that immediately led to FTs. A non-shooting foul also often “leads” to FTs. And several of those clips should have been no call or an offensive foul. Oh well.

2. Giannis routinely gets away with barreling through opponents. Not only does he get away with it, he gets rewarded for it.

3. The league in general gives too many calls favoring the offense, particularly to about 4 or 5 superstars.

4. I get shocked when I see a few trips up and down the court without a whistle or two. It sucks and it takes away from the excitement of games.

[Devils_Advocate]

The more stoppages in play, the more time to air commercials

[danvato]

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

Someone posted the fouls, you be the judge. To me, outside of the first play where he jumps into someone with minimal contact, and the 50/50 Craig blocking call maybe, the rest seem mostly legit.

Read on Twitter

How useless is that twitter video showing all the fouls. Out of 12 fouls there is a replay/2nd angle for what, like two of them? The rest are game action in awful quality, no matter whats your bias, this video offers zero evidence for either side.

personally, i saw 6 fouls.