Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic

[MikeM]

Jokic is more athletic than Embiid in every way except vertical leap.

[iLLmatic860]

Embiid needs a star like Brunson around him

Butler was the last guy he played with who wa always poised and not scared of the moment

Ben Simmons and Harden always w et the bed


I expect Joel to ask for a trade to Knicks or Heat

Another CAA guy for Leon Rose to target

[cupcakesnake]

I love you ignore his All-NBA teammate in 06. The reality is that he played with great talent throughout his prime and won nothing, but these delusional Nash stans want to call out other guys for choking. It's hilarious.

I'm not sure what your main point is here. "Delusional Nash stans" only piped in because someone shared a tweet comparing Embiid's MVP to Nash's. It's pretty fair game to point out that Nash elevated his play in those playoff campaigns.

If I was looking at regular season stats, I'd call Joel a strong MVP and Nash a weak one. So I don't think they compare there. But this thread has been about Embiid's playoff performance (compared to Jokic) making his MVP selection seem worse. We all know that's dumb because MVP is a regular season award, not a crystal ball that determines who will have the best playoffs. Embiid was also injured and playing through it.

But if the subject is about MVPs and playoff performance, keep Nash's name out of it.
Despite Nash averaging less than half Embiid's regular season PPG 15.5 vs. 33.1, Nash outscores Joel in the playoffs 23.9 vs 23.7.
Nash is one of those rare player who actually raised his level of play and took on a bigger load in the playoffs.

This is specifically not the right time to compare Nash to Embiid. If Nash was a weak MVP it was because of his unspectacular boxscore numbers during the regular season. Embiid had all-time great box score numbers during the regular season. If people are taking shots at Embiid for struggling in the playoffs and using that as a referendum on his MVP, then Nash is the wrong comp because he went on a playoff tear in 2005 and 2006, silencing a lot of haters those years.

There are plenty of MVPs who had crappy playoff performances right after. 2007 Dirk, 2017 Russ, 2020 Giannis. There's even famous MVP who got severely outplayed by the guy they beat for the award: Hakeem killing David Robinson in 1995, Lebron shutting down Rose in 2011. Shaq smushing Iverson in 2001. But again, Nash not a good comp here. He actually got to play all his MVP rivals in 2005, beating Kobe and Dirk before losing to the eventual champion Spurs.

You can say I "ignored his All-NBA teammate in 06", and yes sure I should have mentioned Marion in case anyone didn't know Marion was on the team. You'll be hard pressed to find a bigger Marion fan on this board than me. I practically modeled my game after him going up. I think Marion was the clear-cut second-best player on those teams (ahead of Amare). But in the Nash Phoenix era, they won without Amar'e, they won without Marion. Nash took 3 different Phoenix teams to the Conference Finals with very different talent levels on each. If he didn't deserve his MVPs, it has nothing to do with his consistently excellent playoff performances.

[cupcakesnake]

Jokic is more athletic than Embiid in every way except vertical leap.

Embiid is more explosive horizontally as well. His first step is way better than Jokic's. He's faster as well.

I'm sure Jokic has all kinds of subtle athleticism in terms of balance and dexterity, but you're going to have to dig deep into the concept of athleticism to make this case. With Joel, it's obvious: he's a giant strong human who can move really explosively in a ton of clear cut ways.

[Raps in 4]

Was never truly close between the two.

Shades of Messi-Ronaldo with how 1 side has a giant PR push and fanboys arguing constantly to make it closer than it is.

not at all

while considerably a tier below Messi (for their entire career) - CR7 was the real deal as far as second best and has personally been resposible to the highest degrees of personal and team success

Joel is a career loser who isn't even the 10th best player in the league

the analogy is way off, it was never between Jokic and Embiid
Embiid has been shutdown every playoffs in his career, when his foul baiting and stat padding aren't relveant - he doesn't have that much to offer - CR7 was a beast. true, not as good as Messi but still a beast

Joel is a manufactured fraud designed to reel in the huge African market

You can't call him a fraud when hes been playing thru injuries in the playoffs.

For six straight years now.

[Gusto1903]

Embiid didnt even have a better reg season, so **** Joe L and his MVP

[MikeM]

Jokic is more athletic than Embiid in every way except vertical leap.

Embiid is more explosive horizontally as well. His first step is way better than Jokic's. He's faster as well.

I'm sure Jokic has all kinds of subtle athleticism in terms of balance and dexterity, but you're going to have to dig deep into the concept of athleticism to make this case. With Joel, it's obvious: he's a giant strong human who can move really explosively in a ton of clear cut ways.

I think Jokic is faster with the ball than Embiid is without. He just looks weird. He literally takes the ball off the rim and pushes it. He's fast

[Ryoga Hibiki]

I really think some of you guys are going too far against Embiid, he was clearly not 100% in the post season.
Is this a legit concern given his history? Of course yes, but I hate when players are getting clowned for being injured. It was for Davis and it is for Embiid, unless there's a reasonable suspicion it's their fault (Zion).

I think Embiid should build on this, and develop in the following way:
- lose some weight, gain some mobility and stamina at the expense of some of his power
- pace himself and reduce his offensive usage
- maximize his defensive potential
- stop chasing RS objectives, there's no point stressing his own body too much.

I hope though this series showed a few things:
- why the difference on offense between he (and Giannis) and Jokic is massive, they are in different tiers. If you load on him you can limit his impact
- his defensive impact can be negated in some situations, in particular once he starts gassing out

I think he can work on both these things and come back stronger, but first thing would be to take full responsibility and recognize that it's on him to improve.

[Chokic]

I really think some of you guys are going too far against Embiid, he was clearly not 100% in the post season.
Is this a legit concern given his history? Of course yes, but I hate when players are getting clowned for being injured. It was for Davis and it is for Embiid, unless there's a reasonable suspicion it's their fault (Zion).

I think Embiid should build on this, and develop in the following way:
- lose some weight, gain some mobility and stamina at the expense of some of his power
- pace himself and reduce his offensive usage
- maximize his defensive potential
- stop chasing RS objectives, there's no point stressing his own body too much.

I hope though this series showed a few things:
- why the difference on offense between he (and Giannis) and Jokic is massive, they are in different tiers. If you load on him you can limit his impact
- his defensive impact can be negated in some situations, in particular once he starts gassing out

I think he can work on both these things and come back stronger, but first thing would be to take full responsibility and recognize that it's on him to improve.

This is just speculation but Embiid gunning for the mvp from Feb post all star break might have provoked the injury w/ the regular season waning down. I'd imagine now that he has a mvp in his resume and finally got that burden off his back Embiid will try to preserve his body season next season to be healthy for playoffs.

[Mickey8]

Watch on YouTube

He called Embiid a duck

[Jadoogar]

I don’t understand why this was even a debate.

Literally the only argument against Jokic was "he shouldn't win 3 MVPs without any playoff success". It's a regular season award so it shouldn't have been a factor but that's how human minds work.

Embiid made even less sense given this context because Embiid has always been worse in the playoffs. It was just Philly fans whining and they won out.

[Exp0sed]

Jokic averages more points, rebounds and assists, and shoots more efficiently from the field, from 3 and from the free throw line… but you know, advanced stats and all that

you forgot better defense (and leadership!)

Jokic's defense in game 6 was pretty good, Joel was the weakest link in Philly's defense in game 7 - he was hunted and abused, and not just on the perimeter either!

Amazing that in this game alone Embiid got cooked worse than Jokic ever has.

eh, it's alot more than this one game - it's every game and every playoffs but no doubt this was the icing on the cake for his haters

maybe it's one game but he was generationally bad in this one particular game, which just happened to also be the biggest game of his career. what's a generation, 25 years? I doubt we'll see another performance as poor as this by an MVP in win or go home game in another 25 years, might have to wait 50 maybe evern a 100 haha

maybe if he wasn't busy ducking the Joker in Denver, he'd actually learn a few coping skills and stopped being such a wuss
when he ducked that game I knew we were gonna see him in the playoffs with his tail between his legs soon enough

[Ryoga Hibiki]

you forgot better defense (and leadership!)

Jokic's defense in game 6 was pretty good, Joel was the weakest link in Philly's defense in game 7 - he was hunted and abused, and not just on the perimeter either!

Amazing that in this game alone Embiid got cooked worse than Jokic ever has.

eh, it's alot more than this one game - it's every game and every playoffs but no doubt this was the icing on the cake for his haters

maybe it's one game but he was generationally bad in this one particular game, which just happened to also be the biggest game of his career. what's a generation, 25 years? I doubt we'll see another performance as poor as this by an MVP in win or go home game in another 25 years, might have to wait 50 maybe evern a 100 haha

maybe if he wasn't busy ducking the Joker in Denver, he'd actually learn a few coping skills and stopped being such a wuss
when he ducked that game I knew we were gonna see him in the playoffs with his tail between his legs soon enough

decent candidate

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105270LAL.html

[ReddoverKobe]

I'm just sick of the media these days...news, sports, politics...They are all liars and frauds.

I mean how hard is it to just give mvp to the best player in the league?

They can't even get a simple sports award right because they are so full of their own ****.

I mean how many mvp's do Jordan and Lebron have?

[MalonesElbows]

Embiid's career post season 3 pt% is 28%. Pretty big reason why he hasn't made a conference final yet.

[Onus]

I don’t understand why this was even a debate.

Literally the only argument against Jokic was "he shouldn't win 3 MVPs without any playoff success". It's a regular season award so it shouldn't have been a factor but that's how human minds work.

Embiid made even less sense given this context because Embiid has always been worse in the playoffs. It was just Philly fans whining and they won out.

It's sad that our society pays attention to the ones who make the most noise rather than just basing things on meritocracy.

[ReddoverKobe]

He didn't deserve either. 2006 was just egregious. Also never made a single Finals appearance despite playing with stacked rosters for his entire career. Dude was a loser as a player and as a coach.

Hallucinating noobie

Delusional Nash stan.

Tell you what, go look at all of the roster moves the Suns made in the name of saving some money and get back to us about how Nash had a stacked roster. This is actually an embarrassing take by you.

[-Sammy-]

This madness started with people being livid about Embiid being 2nd team, well guess what, there was a time when Shaq, Olajuwon, Robinson, and Ewing were in their prime, and one had to be cut. Life is not fair.

You keep your stone-cold logic and professional truth-telling off my internet.

[Ambrose]

If Jokic were clearly better we wouldn't need an overreaction thread in the middle of a blow out.

I bit my tongue all season, trying not to wade into these silly arguments, but I gotta say that this time the Embiid nephews deserve every bit of ***t they're getting right now.

I don't think one game should be used to significantly change our perception of a player. Embiid and Jokic were rightfully debated all season. Starting a "see I told you" at precisely this point is a vintage RealGM overreaction.

While I agree that there are a lot of one game RealGM overreactions, this is not that.

[Tottery]

I love you ignore his All-NBA teammate in 06. The reality is that he played with great talent throughout his prime and won nothing, but these delusional Nash stans want to call out other guys for choking. It's hilarious.

A big part of Marion making that team was Nash. Marion, Stoudemire, Johnson, and co. were there prior seasons before Nash arrived and couldn't even make the playoffs. It doesn't matter which facts someone brings you. You're just a hater, but here's a fun fact anyway; Nash averaged more ppg the postseason after winning MVP than Joel Embiid. A true MVP who elevated his game when it mattered most.