Was Jokic robbed of the MVP?

PhilBlackson · Post #221 » by **PhilBlackson** » Tue May 23, 2023 1:14 pm

It's a regular season award and imo his regular season wasn't as impressive as Embiid's.

But of course Jokic has absolutely annihilated the Harden of Bigmen, Joel Embiid in the Playoffs and that's really all anyone truly cares about.

ty 4191 · Post #222 » by **ty 4191** » Tue May 23, 2023 1:33 pm

PhilBlackson wrote:It's a regular season award and imo his regular season wasn't as impressive as Embiid's.

I call BS on this:

WS/48:
Jokic: .308
Embiid: .259

Win Shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Embiid: 12.3

Offensive Rating:
Jokic: 134
Embiid: 124

Defensive Rating:
Jokic: 110
Embiid: 109

TS%:
Jokic: .701
Embiid: .655

eFG%:
Jokic: .632
Embiid: .538

Box Plus Minus:
Jokic: 13.0
Embiid: 9.2

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9
Embiid: 7.2

Team record with Jokic playing:
48-21 (.696)

Team record with Embiid playing:
43-23 (.652)

AND...

Embiid's Sixers were 13-5 without him playing this season. Vastly superior supporting cast, and did nothing in the playoffs.

Jokic's Nuggets were 5-8 without him playing this season.

iLLmatic860 · Post #223 » by **iLLmatic860** » Tue May 23, 2023 1:36 pm

I never seen someone care about mvp so much lol...Jokic fans make this guy extremely unlikable

PhilBlackson · Post #224 » by **PhilBlackson** » Tue May 23, 2023 1:45 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:It's a regular season award and imo his regular season wasn't as impressive as Embiid's.

I call BS on this:

WS/48:
Jokic: .308
Embiid: .259

Win Shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Embiid: 12.3

Offensive Rating:
Jokic: 134
Embiid: 124

Defensive Rating:
Jokic: 110
Embiid: 109

TS%:
Jokic: .701
Embiid: .655

eFG%:
Jokic: .632
Embiid: .538

Box Plus Minus:
Jokic: 13.0
Embiid: 9.2

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9
Embiid: 7.2

Team record with Jokic playing:
48-21 (.696)

Team record with Embiid playing:
43-23 (.652)

AND...

Embiid's Sixers were 13-5 without him playing this season. Vastly superior supporting cast, and did nothing in the playoffs.

Jokic's Nuggets were 5-8 without him playing this season.

Oh yes ofc the advanced stats...as if anyone didn't see that coming lol smh & also as if anyone is saying Jokic didn't have a great season himself. Not like a big man leading the league in scoring and having now multiple consecutive 30+ppg seasons (something Shaq couldn't even do) wasn't impressive enough to warrant winning MVP....

Vastly superior supporting cast?! lol

There's no one that touches Murray on PHI's roster but especially if we wanna compare "Playoff Murray" vs "Playoff Harden" where one becomes one of the best players in the league that consistently steps up in huge moments throughout the Playoffs (Murray) while the other cowers with zero consistency to become arguably a liability in those same moments (Harden). Then I'll EASILY take Gordon over Harris...Maxey vs MP Jr may be a wash offensively but it's arguably MP Jr gets the nod for providing far more defensive versatility (when he's actually locked in). How is old ass Tucker and Melton that much greater than Brown and KCP. If anything I'll take the DEN's supporting cast but tell me right now you would gladly swap Murray/MP Jr for Harden/Maxey -- please say it.

ty 4191 · Post #225 » by **ty 4191** » Tue May 23, 2023 1:59 pm

PhilBlackson wrote:Vastly superior supporting cast?! lol

Nuggets 5-8 without Jokic this season.

Sixers 13-5 without Embiid this season.

Regular Season (Min 500 MP):

-Sixers teammates WS/48 aside from Embiid: .115 (.100 is league average)

-Nuggets teammates WS/48 aside from Embiid: .088 (.100 is league average)

dhsilv2 · Post #226 » by **dhsilv2** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:02 pm

garrick wrote:
rapstarter wrote:
garrick wrote:No Jokic wasn't "robbed" because the MVP award is given out for the regular season and doesn't take into account performance during the playoffs.

A bit of voter fatigue probably played into the votes but you can't deny that Embiid put up worthy stats this season.

The problem is, one of the arguments against Jokic during the regular season was based on this hypothetical (and totally unsubstantiated) superiority that Embiid would supposedly have over Jokic in the playoffs. The regular season MVP "should" only be about the regular season, but there were so many discussions around topics that were not related to the regular season or even basketball. That was the frustrating part.

Who was making that argument and was that the majority of the voters?

Without knowing how the panelists came to their decision in the first place it's pure conjecture that past playoff success or failure played a part in voting. You could make the case that many casual basketball fans are arguing that playoff results matter but there's no way to say for certain if that factored into the voters heads.

Most of the voters write up why they voted....cause you know they're paid to write about the nba. And most are worse than casual fans.

lobosloboslobos · Post #227 » by **lobosloboslobos** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:05 pm

PhilBlackson wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:It's a regular season award and imo his regular season wasn't as impressive as Embiid's.

I call BS on this:

WS/48:
Jokic: .308
Embiid: .259

Win Shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Embiid: 12.3

Offensive Rating:
Jokic: 134
Embiid: 124

Defensive Rating:
Jokic: 110
Embiid: 109

TS%:
Jokic: .701
Embiid: .655

eFG%:
Jokic: .632
Embiid: .538

Box Plus Minus:
Jokic: 13.0
Embiid: 9.2

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9
Embiid: 7.2

Team record with Jokic playing:
48-21 (.696)

Team record with Embiid playing:
43-23 (.652)

AND...

Embiid's Sixers were 13-5 without him playing this season. Vastly superior supporting cast, and did nothing in the playoffs.

Jokic's Nuggets were 5-8 without him playing this season.

Oh yes ofc the advanced stats...as if anyone didn't see that coming lol smh & also as if anyone is saying Jokic didn't have a great season himself. Not like a big man leading the league in scoring and having now multiple consecutive 30+ppg seasons (something Shaq couldn't even do) wasn't impressive enough to warrant winning MVP....

Vastly superior supporting cast?! lol

There's no one that touches Murray on PHI's roster but especially if we wanna compare "Playoff Murray" vs "Playoff Harden" where one becomes one of the best players in the league that consistently steps up in huge moments throughout the Playoffs (Murray) while the other cowers with zero consistency to become arguably a liability in those same moments (Harden). Then I'll EASILY take Gordon over Harris...Maxey vs MP Jr may be a wash offensively but it's arguably MP Jr gets the nod for providing far more defensive versatility (when he's actually locked in). How is old ass Tucker and Melton that much greater than Brown and KCP. If anything I'll take the DEN's supporting cast but tell me right now you would gladly swap Murray/MP Jr for Harden/Maxey -- please say it.

Dude A makes a definitive statement that Embiid had a better regular season.
Dude B demolishes that statement with a dozen stats showing Jokic had a far better season.
Dude A argues that stats don't matter and suddenly starts talking about playoffs

:lol:

Dude B gets the belt

Alatan · Post #228 » by **Alatan** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:06 pm

Statlanta wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Big J wrote:
Because the coaches of the teams that he's played against were too dumb to spam pick & roll at him relentlessly. This has already been proven to produce layup lines and uncontested 3's whenever you want them.

So you think that there is something so obvious that the talking point has been beaten to death on message boards and Twitter. But multiple NBA HCs and players are too dumb to realize to try it out in the playoffs where their jobs (at least for the HCs) are on the line?

Hell why wait for the playoffs, why isnt this the go to gameplan for every team when they face the Nuggets?

The one postseason he doesn’t play a HOF level guard(the privilege Embiid has his whole career) he is in the Finals. There is some truth to this after being eliminated by Paul, Lillard and Curry then suddenly going against Conley, Cameron Payne and Russell.

Yeah, lets just ignore Edwards, Booker and freaking LBJ. Because those players dont know what a PnR is... The truth is that Jokic was playing in the playoffs next to such defensive stalwarts such as Campazzo, Barton, Rivers and Morris so he had a snowballs chance in hell to defend anything. Im not saying that Jokic is some defensive god but he is much better than people give him credit. Big centers suck at defending in space and Jokic is not much different, but give him some help and he will surprise you at how good of a positional defender he is. His only true weakness is rim protection.

-Luke- · Post #229 » by **-Luke-** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:09 pm

If the Nuggets win the title, Jokic will be the heavy favorite for the MVP award next season. The "but he hasn't won anything" and the "but three times in a row?" narrative will be gone. I think he will finish his career with 4 MVPs.

ty 4191 · Post #230 » by **ty 4191** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:10 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:
Dude A makes a definitive statement that Embiid had a better regular season.
Dude B demolishes that statement with a dozen stats showing Jokic had a far better season.
Dude B argues that stats don't matter and suddenly starts talking about playoffs

Dude B gets the belt

Mac1958 · Post #231 » by **Mac1958** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:12 pm

Jokic is the best player in the league right now.

His efficiency stats are remarkable.

His team is in the Finals.

Yeah, he should have three straight MVP's.

Post #232 » by **Duke4life831** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:25 pm

Statlanta wrote:
Duke4life831 wrote:
Big J wrote:
Because the coaches of the teams that he's played against were too dumb to spam pick & roll at him relentlessly. This has already been proven to produce layup lines and uncontested 3's whenever you want them.

So you think that there is something so obvious that the talking point has been beaten to death on message boards and Twitter. But multiple NBA HCs and players are too dumb to realize to try it out in the playoffs where their jobs (at least for the HCs) are on the line?

Hell why wait for the playoffs, why isnt this the go to gameplan for every team when they face the Nuggets?

The one postseason he doesn’t play a HOF level guard(the privilege Embiid has his whole career) he is in the Finals. There is some truth to this after being eliminated by Paul, Lillard and Curry then suddenly going against Conley, Cameron Payne and Russell.

Ant can run the PnR? Booker isn’t a future HOF guard that can’t run the PnR? LeBron can’t run the PnR?

Again people need to realize defending the PnR isn’t all on the big. The level of perimeter defenders can play a big part. And when you look at the level of perimeter defenders he has now compared to previous seasons, it makes a lot more sense on why the PnR wasn’t so easy at exploiting the defense.

PhilBlackson · Post #233 » by **PhilBlackson** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:25 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
I call BS on this:

WS/48:
Jokic: .308
Embiid: .259

Win Shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Embiid: 12.3

Offensive Rating:
Jokic: 134
Embiid: 124

Defensive Rating:
Jokic: 110
Embiid: 109

TS%:
Jokic: .701
Embiid: .655

eFG%:
Jokic: .632
Embiid: .538

Box Plus Minus:
Jokic: 13.0
Embiid: 9.2

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9
Embiid: 7.2

Team record with Jokic playing:
48-21 (.696)

Team record with Embiid playing:
43-23 (.652)

AND...

Embiid's Sixers were 13-5 without him playing this season. Vastly superior supporting cast, and did nothing in the playoffs.

Jokic's Nuggets were 5-8 without him playing this season.

Oh yes ofc the advanced stats...as if anyone didn't see that coming lol smh & also as if anyone is saying Jokic didn't have a great season himself. Not like a big man leading the league in scoring and having now multiple consecutive 30+ppg seasons (something Shaq couldn't even do) wasn't impressive enough to warrant winning MVP....

Vastly superior supporting cast?! lol

There's no one that touches Murray on PHI's roster but especially if we wanna compare "Playoff Murray" vs "Playoff Harden" where one becomes one of the best players in the league that consistently steps up in huge moments throughout the Playoffs (Murray) while the other cowers with zero consistency to become arguably a liability in those same moments (Harden). Then I'll EASILY take Gordon over Harris...Maxey vs MP Jr may be a wash offensively but it's arguably MP Jr gets the nod for providing far more defensive versatility (when he's actually locked in). How is old ass Tucker and Melton that much greater than Brown and KCP. If anything I'll take the DEN's supporting cast but tell me right now you would gladly swap Murray/MP Jr for Harden/Maxey -- please say it.

Dude A makes a definitive statement that Embiid had a better regular season.
Dude B demolishes that statement with a dozen stats showing Jokic had a far better season.
Dude B argues that stats don't matter and suddenly starts talking about playoffs

Dude B gets the belt

Dude C chimes in to claim victory based on his own salty opinions/biases to claim I made a definitive statement when I just said "imo" which is clearly not a definitive statement or acting like I speak for everyone. But should also understand being a Raptor fan you know that advanced stats don't always tell the full story. As someone that should also be aware that FVV was amongst the top 5 of overall impact last season according to these same advanced stats but no one would dare say that meant VanVleet had the better season than majority of the top 10 players in the league, but hey continue to be uppity/snarky for no reason because Jokic stans may be the most touchiest bunch on these boards, that they can't hear when someone said he had a great season too and act like a guy that did something historical in his own right (30+ppg seasons which a big man hasn't done in like 30 years while also being amongst the top defenders in the league) was so undeserving of a regular season award.

If the award is always based on advanced stats, no one but LeBron should've won for a decade plus but fortunately there are other players that are rewarded for excellent regular seasons, this would be one of those whether you're salty about it or not.

Just LOL @ you and the unnecessary butthurt.

WestGOAT · Post #234 » by **WestGOAT** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:25 pm

lobosloboslobos wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
I call BS on this:

WS/48:
Jokic: .308
Embiid: .259

Win Shares:
Jokic: 14.9
Embiid: 12.3

Offensive Rating:
Jokic: 134
Embiid: 124

Defensive Rating:
Jokic: 110
Embiid: 109

TS%:
Jokic: .701
Embiid: .655

eFG%:
Jokic: .632
Embiid: .538

Box Plus Minus:
Jokic: 13.0
Embiid: 9.2

EPM:
Jokic: 7.9
Embiid: 7.2

Team record with Jokic playing:
48-21 (.696)

Team record with Embiid playing:
43-23 (.652)

AND...

Embiid's Sixers were 13-5 without him playing this season. Vastly superior supporting cast, and did nothing in the playoffs.

Jokic's Nuggets were 5-8 without him playing this season.

Oh yes ofc the advanced stats...as if anyone didn't see that coming lol smh & also as if anyone is saying Jokic didn't have a great season himself. Not like a big man leading the league in scoring and having now multiple consecutive 30+ppg seasons (something Shaq couldn't even do) wasn't impressive enough to warrant winning MVP....

Vastly superior supporting cast?! lol

There's no one that touches Murray on PHI's roster but especially if we wanna compare "Playoff Murray" vs "Playoff Harden" where one becomes one of the best players in the league that consistently steps up in huge moments throughout the Playoffs (Murray) while the other cowers with zero consistency to become arguably a liability in those same moments (Harden). Then I'll EASILY take Gordon over Harris...Maxey vs MP Jr may be a wash offensively but it's arguably MP Jr gets the nod for providing far more defensive versatility (when he's actually locked in). How is old ass Tucker and Melton that much greater than Brown and KCP. If anything I'll take the DEN's supporting cast but tell me right now you would gladly swap Murray/MP Jr for Harden/Maxey -- please say it.

Dude A makes a definitive statement that Embiid had a better regular season.
Dude B demolishes that statement with a dozen stats showing Jokic had a far better season.
Dude B argues that stats don't matter and suddenly starts talking about playoffs

Dude B gets the belt

It's hilarious, dude B on one hand says MVP is a regular season award, yet wants to use the playoff performance of the supporting squad as a reason why Jokic had a better supporting squad during the regular season(?!), despite them actually having a worse record without Jokic during the regular season.

The amount of mental hoops posters have to contrive themselve through would warrant gold at the special Olympics :lol:

PhilBlackson · Post #235 » by **PhilBlackson** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:35 pm

WestGOAT wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:
Oh yes ofc the advanced stats...as if anyone didn't see that coming lol smh & also as if anyone is saying Jokic didn't have a great season himself. Not like a big man leading the league in scoring and having now multiple consecutive 30+ppg seasons (something Shaq couldn't even do) wasn't impressive enough to warrant winning MVP....

Vastly superior supporting cast?! lol

There's no one that touches Murray on PHI's roster but especially if we wanna compare "Playoff Murray" vs "Playoff Harden" where one becomes one of the best players in the league that consistently steps up in huge moments throughout the Playoffs (Murray) while the other cowers with zero consistency to become arguably a liability in those same moments (Harden). Then I'll EASILY take Gordon over Harris...Maxey vs MP Jr may be a wash offensively but it's arguably MP Jr gets the nod for providing far more defensive versatility (when he's actually locked in). How is old ass Tucker and Melton that much greater than Brown and KCP. If anything I'll take the DEN's supporting cast but tell me right now you would gladly swap Murray/MP Jr for Harden/Maxey -- please say it.

Dude A makes a definitive statement that Embiid had a better regular season.
Dude B demolishes that statement with a dozen stats showing Jokic had a far better season.
Dude B argues that stats don't matter and suddenly starts talking about playoffs

Dude B gets the belt

It's hilarious, dude B on one hand says MVP is a regular season award, yet wants to use the playoff performance of the supporting squad as a reason why Jokic had a better supporting squad during the regular season(?!), despite them actually having a worse record without Jokic during the regular season.

The amount of mental hoops posters have to contrive themselve through would warrant gold at the special Olympics

There's no mental gymnastics being performed my special Olympics' friend.

You answer the question and I do mean answer it -- who would you rather have in the Playoffs, Harden/Maxey or Murray/MP Jr?!?

I'll wait. It's just hilarious how overly sensitive Joker stans are that it's just impossible to think anyone other than him can have a season to warrant a MVP nod. While most of us agree LeBron should have had way more MVPs and Joker is worthy of having another, it doesn't mean guys like KD, Steph, Harden etc didn't earn theirs in that time just because LeBron was the better player and/or was better according to advanced stats etc.

That's how this goes but for some reason you guys are soooo butthurt that anyone so much as says that another guy was worthy of winning the award lol it's not that serious, nor is it a knock at Joker, ya'll need to chill tfo :lol:

MrBigShot · Post #236 » by **MrBigShot** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:35 pm

They were close enough to where it feels like Embiid earned the award, but we pretty obviously know who the most valuable player in the NBA actually is now. Jokic is the best player in the world.

ty 4191 · Post #237 » by **ty 4191** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:38 pm

WestGOAT wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:
PhilBlackson wrote:
Dude A makes a definitive statement that Embiid had a better regular season.
Dude B demolishes that statement with a dozen stats showing Jokic had a far better season.
Dude B argues that stats don't matter and suddenly starts talking about playoffs

Dude B gets the belt

It's hilarious, dude B on one hand says MVP is a regular season award, yet wants to use the playoff performance of the supporting squad as a reason why Jokic had a better supporting squad during the regular season(?!), despite them actually having a worse record without Jokic during the regular season.

The amount of mental hoops posters have to contrive themselve through would warrant gold at the special Olympics

I'm not using the playoffs.

Jokic was far superior to Embiid in the regular season, and, without nearly the supporting cast Jokic had.

sisibilio · Post #238 » by **sisibilio** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:42 pm

Jokic was better IMO but they all had historic performances so i've got no problem with Embiid (or Giannis) getting the award.

PhilBlackson · Post #239 » by **PhilBlackson** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:46 pm

ty 4191 wrote:
WestGOAT wrote:
lobosloboslobos wrote:
It's hilarious, dude B on one hand says MVP is a regular season award, yet wants to use the playoff performance of the supporting squad as a reason why Jokic had a better supporting squad during the regular season(?!), despite them actually having a worse record without Jokic during the regular season.

The amount of mental hoops posters have to contrive themselve through would warrant gold at the special Olympics

I'm not using the playoffs.

Jokic was far superior to Embiid in the regular season, and, without nearly the supporting cast Jokic had.

Again MVP voting is subjective...it's not always the guy that's the better player or the advanced stats leader because as I've said multiple times now, if that were the case, LeBron would have won the majority of MVPs for more than a decade span but he didn't and nor will Joker because other players will have seasons that warrant rewarding them for a great individual season.

That's just the nature of the award and why I believe it's fine Embiid won it. It's not some personal knock on Jokic and its pretty much unanimous to any non-PHI fan that Joker is the better player so we can get some your panties out of knot, relax a little bit and understand that it's not that big of a deal or knock against NJ that Embiid won the award or that anyone could think his regular season that was historical in it's own right warranted it.

Post #240 » by **Mavrelous** » Tue May 23, 2023 2:53 pm

It's so easy guys, just hunt Jokic in the P&R...

This is the series page for last year PO, when mercilessly GSW hunted Jokic, and they absolutely did hunt him
https://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/2022-nba-western-conference-first-round-nuggets-vs-warriors.html
1st 2 games were blow out losses, Jokic had negative +/- like all starters, DEN won game 4
Game 3 - DEN loses, Jokic has positive +/-
Game 5 - DEN loses, Jokic has 0 +/-

For someone that was hunted it's odd to have this type of +/-, did Steph and Dray forget the playbook?

Maybe the reason they lost was the fact that the players that went to battle with Jokic were (in order of minutes played).
Will Barton -- waived by the team the he was traded to, joined a team on vet min, didn't crack 20MPG on either one of them, both of them were lottery teams.
Aaron Gordon -- great defensive role player, 4th/5th best player on the current team.
Monte Morris -- fringe starter on a lottery team the following season, many times outplayed by 2-way player Goodwin.
Jeff Green -- a career bench journeyman on the twilight of his career, in his mid 30s.
Austin Rivers -- 10th/11th player on typical roster, spent some RS time w/o being on roster
Bones Hyland -- LMAO
Brynn Forbes -- Is he still in the league??
Jamychael Green -- played total of 49minutes in 13 games for the Warriors (who have crap for depth in big men), he played 69 in 5 games for the Nuggets that year.

This man has produced some eye popping numbers in the 2 years he won MVP, his impact stats were off the chart, even on historical standards, he failed in the PO because no one can succeed with this crap, and I mean no one, he has a good roster around him and he makes it to the finals, dominating opponents.
This is an absolute vindication for his MVP campaigns, man did the impossible, in retrospect, Jokic making the PO with the roster he had in 2022 is even bigger achievement than the finals this year, this was a historically bad roster he had to work with, LeBron missed the PO in 19, Steph missed it in 21, Luka missed it in 23, Dame missed it in 22 and 23, and all of them had better rosters than him, LeBron is top 2 all time, Steph is top 10 all time, Dame was in the top 75 and Luka is 4 times 1st team all NBA and will be all time great probably.
Give the man his due, we have been watching greatness for 4 years, any questions about have been answered, in a resounded voice, Nikola Jokic is a bad mother ****...

Was Jokic Robbed of the MVP?