RGM GOAT Debate Thread

[carrrnuttt]

I'm not going to relitigate what was in the thread titled "Lebron James is the most overrated athlete in sports history", but since this is apparently the thread to respond about it, I just find it funny that the usual LeGM excuses are always in play whenever that discussion comes about:

- That he carried bad teams formed from bad management behind bad coaches...but the same people making this argument never acknowledge LeBron's OUTSIZED influence on who he played with and who coached/coaches him. All the way to him lying about having any influence on JJ Redick being hired.

- That he made it to ten Finals...but the same people making this argument downplay how weak the East was for most of LeBron's tenure in that Conference.

- Going back to the first point above, anytime his team doesn't do well, everyone else around him, especially his fellow players gets blamed for the issues, but LeBron gets all the accolades when they do well...but the same people making this argument always downplay how LeBron's legacy got bailed out by his teammates.

- Lastly, it is often put out what great BBIQ LeBron has, especially when setting up his teammates...but the same people making this argument will NEVER acknowledge that LeBron's domineering style of play has only been conducive to making everyone on the court around him role players. It's only when his teammates are either his really good friends AND (not OR) can effectively cut through with their own domination that they can become stars next to him. Wade did this. Kyrie did it. AD did it (even though when the Lakers don't do well, he still gets the brunt of the blame from a lot of LeBron fans). Bosh couldn't (also still acknowledged as a bum by most LeBron fanatics). Love couldn't. Etc., etc.

[HighFlyer23]

Why is Steph on this poll? You said it yourself: "leading a team to a championship as the best player is the goal and the hardest thing to do. And the fashion it's done in along with the total contribution to the success of the team also matters with that regard. That's the goal and the actual challenge of the sport."

Steph is one of the very few players who can be said to have been on a better championship team than Jordan's best and brought a worse team to a championship than Jordan's worst championship team.

On the other hand what is the reason for not having Curry under consideration? Some vague even he wouldn't say he is? That's not a reason. Maybe he's just being polite and we know Steph is generally polite. Are players candidates just because they say they are?

I get the feeling the reason people want to dismiss Steph quickly is because he actually has the strongest case to be made against Jordan. Steph introduces uncertainty to the equation because people don't really know how to value what Steph brings. It is quite clear that the way people evaluate him is off and that leaves room for him being greatly underrated even if he is already considered a top ten player of all-time.

Good points but Curry is not as complete as MJ. Especially on the defensive end. But he definitely deserves a lot of credit for carrying his team to championships.

People dismiss Curry because of his slightly feminine looks and his smaller size. Not saying Curry is feminine and 6'3" is taller than the average US adult male but this is the perception.

More complete? What is that supposed to mean? What makes a player "complete" is a largely arbitrary set of traits that are believed to be good but in reality are a faint guess at what makes a player. I'm going to guess that by your definition Chris Paul and Klay Thompson are more "complete" players than Curry too. But they are not as good.

People in these discussions tend to be superficial even without going into the line of discussion you bring up.

MJ was undisputedly a better defender and had more weapons offensively than Steph.

Don’t see how you can deny this.

Nobody on planet earth with an IQ above room temperature and over the age of 10 believes Steph Curry is as good as Michael Jordan at the sport of basketball

[nikster]

- Lastly, it is often put out what great BBIQ LeBron has, especially when setting up his teammates...but the same people making this argument will NEVER acknowledge that LeBron's domineering style of play has only been conducive to making everyone on the court around him role players. It's only when his teammates are either his really good friends AND (not OR) can effectively cut through with their own domination that they can become stars next to him. Wade did this. Kyrie did it. AD did it (even though when the Lakers don't do well, he still gets the brunt of the blame from a lot of LeBron fans). Bosh couldn't (also still acknowledged as a bum by most LeBron fanatics). Love couldn't. Etc., etc.

"Lebron turns everyone into role players....except for the 3 stars with very different skillsets that didnt"

[WarriorGM]

Good points but Curry is not as complete as MJ. Especially on the defensive end. But he definitely deserves a lot of credit for carrying his team to championships.

People dismiss Curry because of his slightly feminine looks and his smaller size. Not saying Curry is feminine and 6'3" is taller than the average US adult male but this is the perception.

More complete? What is that supposed to mean? What makes a player "complete" is a largely arbitrary set of traits that are believed to be good but in reality are a faint guess at what makes a player. I'm going to guess that by your definition Chris Paul and Klay Thompson are more "complete" players than Curry too. But they are not as good.

People in these discussions tend to be superficial even without going into the line of discussion you bring up.

MJ was undisputedly a better defender and had more weapons offensively than Steph.

Don’t see how you can deny this.

Nobody on planet earth with an IQ above room temperature and over the age of 10 believes Steph Curry is as good as Michael Jordan at the sport of basketball

One would think that given MJ's supposed defensive advantage he'd have clearly better defensive teams. But it is actually unclear who has had better defensive teams built around them. Steph won championships as part of the team with the best defensive rating in the league and the second best defensive rating in the league. Jordan won with the team with the best defensive rating in 1996 and 3rd best in 1998.

It is actually disputable if MJ has more weapons than Steph but, even if for the sake of argument we were to accept that, Steph indisputably has the biggest weapon between the two.

Nobody on planet Earth with an IQ above room temperature and over the age of 10 believes Steph Curry is as good as Michael Jordan at the sport of basketball? Michael Jordan defies gravity. Steph Curry is an alien.

[Showtime 80]

You obviously didn't fact check or provide evidence here. Though if this is your evidence then I feel unmoved from my statement except to say that I forgot that Jordan was also better than LeBron when it comes to luck.

Jordans luck to be gifted Pippen and great teams under the coaching of Phil Jackson.. just incredibly lucky, no wonder he likes gambling.

Lebron's luck was from creating super teams over and over to only win 4 titles. Oh wait, playing with all of those all-stars and only winning 4, nor 2011 was luck. But being saved by Bosh and Allen from only having 3 titles was!

Yeah LeBron did have to go make his own luck, glad that this is acknowledged.

Forming teams from scratch and winning is actually extremely difficult. Name another team that has managed to do it? List gets even smaller when you use cap space to acquire a squad.

Team depth, continuity and great coaching are cornerstones of a dynasty and LeBron never had this.

Jordan had one team, system and coach he spammed over and over to get titles. This is of course very impressive.
LeBron built up 3 separate teams to get titles and I find this more impressive than Jordans 6.

Give me a damn break with this tired excuse again!!!

In 2011 Miami a 26 y/o LeBron had the strongest, most consistent and stable franchise culture in the NBA this side of San Antonio as being one of the winningest teams since 1996 and the most successful expansion franchise since 1981 by a country mile. Not to mention they were the most attractive destination for free agents as the LA of the east while also playing in the lesser conference which is another advantage.

What happened then?!? Simple, the Arison/Riley/Spoelstra rock solid trifecta were NEVER gonna let control freak LaBaldo and his posse grab a hold of that franchise the way he has done with the Lakers and that’s a big no no for a grade A narcissist like him. His mistake and only himself to blame because there is no doubt the Heat would’ve been fielding contending teams for the last 10 years with him on board.

MJ could only dream of the stable coaching/gm/ownership harmony and stability the Miami Heat have had since 1996
instead of the circus they had going in Chicago for almost his entire tenure there.

And LOL at the “spamming” comment That’s the entire point of dynasty building in ALL sports, build a great team and go out to win as many games and titles as you can while your window allows it.

[KembaWalker]

“LeBron built 3 separate teams” lmao I’d love to see anyone actually try to say this **** with a straight face

[lessthanjake]

Yeah LeBron did have to go make his own luck, glad that this is acknowledged.

Forming teams from scratch and winning is actually extremely difficult. Name another team that has managed to do it? List gets even smaller when you use cap space to acquire a squad.

Team depth, continuity and great coaching are cornerstones of a dynasty and LeBron never had this.

Jordan had one team, system and coach he spammed over and over to get titles. This is of course very impressive.
LeBron built up 3 separate teams to get titles and I find this more impressive than Jordans 6.

Birds Celtics, Jordans Bulls, Duncans Spurs

Didnt Bosh and James go to Miami to join Wade?
Didnt Cleveland trade for Love shortly after James signed joining Irving?
Didnt LA trade for Davis after James first year there in which they missed the playoffs?

Funny how you leave out those details

I'm not leaving out those details. That was my point.

Superteams being assembled rarely ever end up successful. Celtics 2008 squad got one ring, I think that's the only non-LeBron example of an assembled superteam actually working, which really laid the blueprint for LeBron.

Growing your top 2-3 talents and adding depth or in some cases another star is the usual path. Putting stars together in an offseason only really works if one of those stars is LeBron.

This seems reliant on defining out other examples until your comparisons are to a small number of things that aren’t similar.

What about the 1983 Sixers or Durant Warriors? I suppose you’re not counting those since they only added “another star.” But then at that point your distinction is just that LeBron’s Heat and Cavs teams added two stars instead of one (Wade and Kyrie were on these teams already). And the question becomes how many examples of that are there, period? There’s not a lot of them, because this really isn’t a normal thing (and, indeed, that’s part of why people were mad at LeBron for doing it). And the vast majority of the examples that do exist involve stars teaming up when they’re old. Does the lack of success of a team like the Hakeem/Barkley/Drexler Rockets tell us that superteams aren’t super good, or does it tell us that stacking guys who are old and mostly past it isn’t super good?

It should go without saying that the league’s best player teaming up in the middle of his prime with two other stars in their prime is very different (and way more likely to succeed) than guys teaming up where most or all of them are old (or at least where the best guy is old). There’s not much of any precedent for something remotely equivalent to what LeBron did failing. One that is at least arguable is the Durant/Kyrie/Harden Nets, but that really just had one year and probably only failed due to injuries.

In other words, your argument is to refer back to historical precedent that basically doesn’t really exist.

[audiosway]

This poll is illegitimate since it doesn't include Larry Bird.

[MavsDirk41]

Yeah LeBron did have to go make his own luck, glad that this is acknowledged.

Forming teams from scratch and winning is actually extremely difficult. Name another team that has managed to do it? List gets even smaller when you use cap space to acquire a squad.

Team depth, continuity and great coaching are cornerstones of a dynasty and LeBron never had this.

Jordan had one team, system and coach he spammed over and over to get titles. This is of course very impressive.
LeBron built up 3 separate teams to get titles and I find this more impressive than Jordans 6.

Birds Celtics, Jordans Bulls, Duncans Spurs

Didnt Bosh and James go to Miami to join Wade?
Didnt Cleveland trade for Love shortly after James signed joining Irving?
Didnt LA trade for Davis after James first year there in which they missed the playoffs?

Funny how you leave out those details

I'm not leaving out those details. That was my point.

Superteams being assembled rarely ever end up successful. Celtics 2008 squad got one ring, I think that's the only non-LeBron example of an assembled superteam actually working, which really laid the blueprint for LeBron.

Growing your top 2-3 talents and adding depth or in some cases another star is the usual path. Putting stars together in an offseason only really works if one of those stars is LeBron.

A couple points here. First off, Drexler joined Dream and they won a title, Durant joined Curry/Thompson and they won a couple, and there are others im sure. Putting star players together can work for other players and not just James as you put it.

And im more impressed with homegrown talent/players drafted by their organization winning championships than star players like James and Durant hopping around picking their teammates to win championships.

Jordans Bulls, Birds Celtics, Duncans Spurs……now that it impressive to me

[MavsDirk41]

“LeBron built 3 separate teams” lmao I’d love to see anyone actually try to say this **** with a straight face

He built 3 separate teams with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis

[zimpy27]

Birds Celtics, Jordans Bulls, Duncans Spurs

Didnt Bosh and James go to Miami to join Wade?
Didnt Cleveland trade for Love shortly after James signed joining Irving?
Didnt LA trade for Davis after James first year there in which they missed the playoffs?

Funny how you leave out those details

I'm not leaving out those details. That was my point.

Superteams being assembled rarely ever end up successful. Celtics 2008 squad got one ring, I think that's the only non-LeBron example of an assembled superteam actually working, which really laid the blueprint for LeBron.

Growing your top 2-3 talents and adding depth or in some cases another star is the usual path. Putting stars together in an offseason only really works if one of those stars is LeBron.

A couple points here. First off, Drexler joined Dream and they won a title, Durant joined Curry/Thompson and they won a couple, and there are others im sure. Putting star players together can work for other players and not just James as you put it.

And im more impressed with homegrown talent/players drafted by their organization winning championships than star players like James and Durant hopping around picking their teammates to win championships.

Jordans Bulls, Birds Celtics, Duncans Spurs……now that it impressive to me

That's fair, I appreciate that different people are impressed by different things. I didn't have LeBron above Jordan until 2020 championship.

[MavsDirk41]

I'm not leaving out those details. That was my point.

Superteams being assembled rarely ever end up successful. Celtics 2008 squad got one ring, I think that's the only non-LeBron example of an assembled superteam actually working, which really laid the blueprint for LeBron.

Growing your top 2-3 talents and adding depth or in some cases another star is the usual path. Putting stars together in an offseason only really works if one of those stars is LeBron.

A couple points here. First off, Drexler joined Dream and they won a title, Durant joined Curry/Thompson and they won a couple, and there are others im sure. Putting star players together can work for other players and not just James as you put it.

And im more impressed with homegrown talent/players drafted by their organization winning championships than star players like James and Durant hopping around picking their teammates to win championships.

Jordans Bulls, Birds Celtics, Duncans Spurs……now that it impressive to me

That's fair, I appreciate that different people are impressed by different things. I didn't have LeBron above Jordan until 2020 championship.

Fair enough, opinions vary, no harm no foul

[KembaWalker]

“LeBron built 3 separate teams” lmao I’d love to see anyone actually try to say this **** with a straight face

He built 3 separate teams with Wade, Bosh, Irving, Love, and Davis

He bought the finished products bro didn’t build a single thing in his career lmao

[Gregoire]

It's a team sport so it's really not fair to consider a single player the best or greatest

But it's going to be MJ based on any reasonable criteria

Depending on how much you positively or negatively weigh different parts of performance such as accomplishments, accolades, awards, achievements, failures, successes, stats, intangibles, shortcomings, expectations, impact, offense, defense etc.

I'd say that mostly everyone can agree that leading a team to a championship as the best player is the goal and the hardest thing to do. And the fashion it's done in along with the total contribution to the success of the team also matters with that regard. That's the goal and the actual challenge of the sport.

Jordan has done that better than anyone else, so he gets the nod. He's led his teams to 6 titles as the best player with the most impact and best statistical performance. He was definitely the best offensive player and was just as good defensively as Pippen or Rodman, who are considered elite defenders on his own team. He's never been on super stacked teams and his competition was strong overall. He may have not beaten the KD Warriors or the 86 Celtics but he's beaten very good teams in his championship campaigns. Doesn't have a catastrophic collapse like Lebron in 2011.

Some one with enough time on their hands can analyze all of these facets and aspects of performance to a point system and Jordan will likely come out on top. Guys like Wilt and Hakeem didn't win enough and didn't achieve the same level of success as MJ. Magic and Bird aren't as complete as Jordan and played on stacked teams. Lebron has too many failures and weaknesses in his game. Kobe was the number 2 option for a good part of his career. Duncan isn't as statistically dominant as Jordan and doesn't have as many accolades. Shaq underachieved and his career doesn't add up as well compared to Jordan. Kareem is close but he may have been a number 2 option at certain points of his career. Bill Russell had no offensive game. Too soon to say for Jokic and why is Curry in this poll? Steph Curry is not the GOAT basketball player. Not even Curry would tell you he is.

And honestly I don't see how Lebron is #2 on this poll. He has more flaws and weaknesses and failures than many of the other greats.

Interesting that skill is not really brought up in these debates. If you lay out all skills and athletic traits, you can see how big the gap is between the two.

Overall Scoring - Jordan
Overall Shooting - Jordan
Overall Defense - Jordan
Offensive post - Jordan
Handles - Jordan
Offensive rebounding - Jordan
Footwork - Jordan
Layup package - Jordan
Drawing fouls - Jordan
FT shooting - Jordan
Steals - Jordan
Offensive consistency - Jordan
Off the ball play - Jordan
Midrange - Jordan
Vertical - Jordan
Hangtime - Jordan
Durability - Jordan
Coachability - Jordan
Defensive consistency - Jordan
Shot blocking - Jordan
Defensive Rebounding - James
Overall Strength - James
Overall Passing - James

What about flopping? It seems you mainly listed the skills MJ was better at

Watch on YouTube

[CobraCommander]

Jordan never won the in-season tournament.
Jordan was never able to reach the Playoffs via the play-in.
Jordan was never able to play in the same NBA team as his own son.
End of discussion.

True - but Kwame vs Bronny- who you got -

Both drafted by the goat candidates - one had a productive career the other is out as soon as his dad retires… unless his dad buys the Vegas team and puts him in as starting point

[bledredwine]

It's funny because this is what the poll would have looked like during Kobe's playing days

Actually, judging by Realgm then, Kobe would have had more votes.

[Triple7]

Lebron is disqualified from any GOAT debate by choking against the mavs in 2011. Then choking again in 2014 against the spurs. Cramp gate lol. More losses in the finals against winning. I don’t give a rat’s ass about his stats on those finals losses. Facts are, he gets his stats almost a triple double the first 3 quarters, then disappears in the 4th, or the last 5mins of the game when being down. I have MJ as the goat.

[HighFlyer23]

Lebron is disqualified from any GOAT debate by choking against the mavs in 2011. Then choking again in 2014 against the spurs. Cramp gate lol. More losses in the finals against winning. I don’t give a rat’s ass about his stats on those finals losses. Facts are, he gets his stats almost a triple double the first 3 quarters, then disappears in the 4th, or the last 5mins of the game when being down. I have MJ as the goat.

I don't know any GOAT of any sport that failed as bad as lebron in 2011

And while being on a superteam at that with a top 5 player on your team and a top 10 positional player on your team

[Iwasawitness]

Lebron is disqualified from any GOAT debate by choking against the mavs in 2011. Then choking again in 2014 against the spurs. Cramp gate lol. More losses in the finals against winning. I don’t give a rat’s ass about his stats on those finals losses. Facts are, he gets his stats almost a triple double the first 3 quarters, then disappears in the 4th, or the last 5mins of the game when being down. I have MJ as the goat.

I don't know any GOAT of any sport that failed as bad as lebron in 2011

And while being on a superteam at that with a top 5 player on your team and a top 10 positional player on your team

Tom Brady in 2007 failed much harder than LeBron did in 2011. The undefeated Patriots losing to the wild card Giants isn’t just the biggest upset in NFL history, it’s one of the biggest upsets in the history of all major pro sports. Miami on the other hand shouldn’t have even been the betting favorites, but they were because people weren’t paying any attention at the time. Dallas was 6-2 against Miami that season while sporting a better team, being better coached and deeper. You mention the top five player and the top ten positional player, but there’s a reason you didn’t mention anyone else, because Miami didn’t have anyone else. They were a super team, yes. But they weren’t a great one.

LeBron’s performance was worse, don’t get me wrong. But Tom Brady losing was a greater failure.

[SlimShady83]

I'm still shocked Jokic and his fans and all those people on here who have said his one of the best centers and can be even talked about right after Jordan, haven't helped Jokic In the poll, just Imagain If I did this thread after Denver won lmao.