Where would Stockton rank as a point guard today

[naabzor]

If Haliburton is an all star or so close Stockton will be a lock.

[theonlyclutch]

Jeff Malone sucked dude...like he sucked. he was a poor scorer and shot too much. He also wasn't a good defender.


Jazz become a contender as soon as they replaced him for a good player.

I see this argument brought up all the time, but 'Sucky 3rd options' don't actually prevent teams from being legitimate contenders if their top options are good enough:
-The 2020 Lakers had *checks notes* Kyle Kuzma and won the chip.
-The '22 Warriors won the chip and had idk, Andrew Wiggins, remind me how he was perceived most of his career again?
-The Mavs this past season got to the finals with a bunch of cheap trade deadline acquisitions and a rookie around Luka + Kyrie.

Having not-so-great 3rd options would be a legitimate excuse for why a team might not match say, the Jordan Bulls or KD Warriors, but in no way does that prevent playoff success.

2020 didn't have a title so I don't even bother there.

Apologies, Google search just has all these realistic pictures of Lebron James and Anthony Davis spraying champagne and holding the NBA trophy with 2020 finals shirts, man DALL-E is just amazing these days.

The warriors in 2022, Wiggins was 4th on the team in scoring and Dray who wasn't head of him lead the team in assists.

My bad, didn't check the bball-reference page before posting, turns out the 3rd on the team scoring was Jordan Poole, I am sure he turned out to be an all-round good player with loads of team success afterwards!

Just like every single championship team ever, the rotation players ALL matter and play key roles on if their teams win or lose.

To an extent that is obvious, but unless your name is Danny Ainge/Brad Stevens and can ruthlessly draft and execute trades over years to stack talent, championship teams, like almost all other teams, will rely on some players more than others. Cleveland relied on Lebron significantly more than JR Smith for example.

And the overriding point being wasn't that ol'Jeff being sucky (using simplistic stuff such as TS+, nvm offensive options can be positive impact even without good efficiency) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series.

[dhsilv2]

I see this argument brought up all the time, but 'Sucky 3rd options' don't actually prevent teams from being legitimate contenders if their top options are good enough:
-The 2020 Lakers had *checks notes* Kyle Kuzma and won the chip.
-The '22 Warriors won the chip and had idk, Andrew Wiggins, remind me how he was perceived most of his career again?
-The Mavs this past season got to the finals with a bunch of cheap trade deadline acquisitions and a rookie around Luka + Kyrie.

Having not-so-great 3rd options would be a legitimate excuse for why a team might not match say, the Jordan Bulls or KD Warriors, but in no way does that prevent playoff success.

2020 didn't have a title so I don't even bother there.

Apologies, Google search just has all these realistic pictures of Lebron James and Anthony Davis spraying champagne and holding the NBA trophy with 2020 finals shirts, man DALL-E is just amazing these days.

The warriors in 2022, Wiggins was 4th on the team in scoring and Dray who wasn't head of him lead the team in assists.

My bad, didn't check the bball-reference page before posting, turns out the 3rd on the team scoring was Jordan Poole, I am sure he turned out to be an all-round good player with loads of team success afterwards!

Just like every single championship team ever, the rotation players ALL matter and play key roles on if their teams win or lose.

To an extent that is obvious, but unless your name is Danny Ainge/Brad Stevens and can ruthlessly draft and execute trades over years to stack talent, championship teams, like almost all other teams, will rely on some players more than others. Cleveland relied on Lebron significantly more than JR Smith for example.

And the overriding point being wasn't that ol'Jeff being sucky (using simplistic stuff such as TS+, nvm offensive options can be positive impact even without good efficiency) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series.

Players being in roles they suck at, like Jeff Malone, are bigger issues than great players being great sometimes.

Malone was terrible for the Jazz. His BPM on the Jazz -2.0, -1.7, -3.1

The fact you think of him as their 3rd player, when his stats indicate he was at or below replacement level (meaning he should be a 12th man) paints this perfectly. Nobody has ever won with a volume scorer on their team with BPM's like that as far as I know. If you can show me anyone overcoming something like that, I'll consider it. But otherwise you're really going wild here.

And this isn't just a bad role on the Jazz thing. This guy played 900 NBA games and ended his career with a VORP of 4.0. Show me a single player who was a top 5 guy on a title team's rotation who played even 700 games who didn't have a career VORP over that.

[nate33]

Chris Paul and Tyrese Haliburton are two recent examples of what a highly efficient pass-first PG can accomplish in today's game.

Chris Paul was 5th in MVP voting in 2021 at age 35. He was 1st or 2nd Team All-NBA in nearly every healthy season of his prime.
Tyrese Haliburton was probably the 5th place MVP and destined for All-NBA 1st or 2nd team until the injury

I see no reason why Stockton couldn't be in the same tier - a guy who would consistently rank in the 5-15 range in MVP voting and be a 2nd or 3rd team All-NBA guy most seasons with maybe a couple seasons on 1st team. I figure Stockton is just a hair worse than healthy prime Chris Paul, and a little better than Haliburton.

[The Explorer]

Stockton cooked a modern-type player in Gilbert Arenas at age 40 head to head.

April 2002
Stockton: 26pts, 9 assists, 4steals, 0 Turnovers, 63.6% FG
Gilbert: 16pts, 7 assists, 1blk, 4 Turnovers...50% FG. And fouled out in 28 minutes

He would cook a lot of guards in today's game with today's rules.

[theonlyclutch]

2020 didn't have a title so I don't even bother there.

Apologies, Google search just has all these realistic pictures of Lebron James and Anthony Davis spraying champagne and holding the NBA trophy with 2020 finals shirts, man DALL-E is just amazing these days.

The warriors in 2022, Wiggins was 4th on the team in scoring and Dray who wasn't head of him lead the team in assists.

My bad, didn't check the bball-reference page before posting, turns out the 3rd on the team scoring was Jordan Poole, I am sure he turned out to be an all-round good player with loads of team success afterwards!

Just like every single championship team ever, the rotation players ALL matter and play key roles on if their teams win or lose.

To an extent that is obvious, but unless your name is Danny Ainge/Brad Stevens and can ruthlessly draft and execute trades over years to stack talent, championship teams, like almost all other teams, will rely on some players more than others. Cleveland relied on Lebron significantly more than JR Smith for example.

And the overriding point being wasn't that ol'Jeff being sucky (using simplistic stuff such as TS+, nvm offensive options can be positive impact even without good efficiency) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series.

Players being in roles they suck at, like Jeff Malone, are bigger issues than great players being great sometimes.

Malone was terrible for the Jazz. His BPM on the Jazz -2.0, -1.7, -3.1

The fact you think of him as their 3rd player, when his stats indicate he was at or below replacement level (meaning he should be a 12th man) paints his perfectly. Nobody has ever won with a volume scorer on their team with BPM's like that as far as I know. If you can show me anyone overcoming something like that, I'll consider it. But otherwise you're really going wild here.

And this isn't just a bad role on the Jazz thing. This guy played 900 NBA games and ended his career with a VORP of 4.0. Show me a single player who was a top 5 guy on a title team's rotation who played even 700 games who didn't have a career VORP over that.

Kyle Kuzma literally had a -2.6BPM while being the third highest scorer of the 2020 Lakers team that won the chip (top 5 in minutes as well) but OK.

Even if y'all think Jeff Malone was committing crimes against basketball as a below replacement player (nevermind that the coaching staff, who should have the most insight continued to give him significant minutes in the RS and playoffs) the overriding point, which you completely missed, was:

(it wasn't Jeff malone) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series

[dhsilv2]

Apologies, Google search just has all these realistic pictures of Lebron James and Anthony Davis spraying champagne and holding the NBA trophy with 2020 finals shirts, man DALL-E is just amazing these days.



My bad, didn't check the bball-reference page before posting, turns out the 3rd on the team scoring was Jordan Poole, I am sure he turned out to be an all-round good player with loads of team success afterwards!



To an extent that is obvious, but unless your name is Danny Ainge/Brad Stevens and can ruthlessly draft and execute trades over years to stack talent, championship teams, like almost all other teams, will rely on some players more than others. Cleveland relied on Lebron significantly more than JR Smith for example.

And the overriding point being wasn't that ol'Jeff being sucky (using simplistic stuff such as TS+, nvm offensive options can be positive impact even without good efficiency) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series.

Players being in roles they suck at, like Jeff Malone, are bigger issues than great players being great sometimes.

Malone was terrible for the Jazz. His BPM on the Jazz -2.0, -1.7, -3.1

The fact you think of him as their 3rd player, when his stats indicate he was at or below replacement level (meaning he should be a 12th man) paints his perfectly. Nobody has ever won with a volume scorer on their team with BPM's like that as far as I know. If you can show me anyone overcoming something like that, I'll consider it. But otherwise you're really going wild here.

And this isn't just a bad role on the Jazz thing. This guy played 900 NBA games and ended his career with a VORP of 4.0. Show me a single player who was a top 5 guy on a title team's rotation who played even 700 games who didn't have a career VORP over that.

Kyle Kuzma literally had a -2.6BPM while being the third highest scorer of the 2020 Lakers team that won the chip (top 5 in minutes as well) but OK.

Even if y'all think Jeff Malone was committing crimes against basketball as a below replacement player (nevermind that the coaching staff, who should have the most insight continued to give him significant minutes in the RS and playoffs) the overriding point, which you completely missed, was:

(it wasn't Jeff malone) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series

I'm not going to engage in bubble ball. But Kuzma was 4th in scoring in the disney princess event.

And of course the Jazz weren't close with Jeff. He was terrible and cost them in seeding and in the playoffs. We're after all talking about a series where Jeff had a TS% of 49.4 and was taking nearly 17 shots a game...

[theonlyclutch]

Players being in roles they suck at, like Jeff Malone, are bigger issues than great players being great sometimes.

Malone was terrible for the Jazz. His BPM on the Jazz -2.0, -1.7, -3.1

The fact you think of him as their 3rd player, when his stats indicate he was at or below replacement level (meaning he should be a 12th man) paints his perfectly. Nobody has ever won with a volume scorer on their team with BPM's like that as far as I know. If you can show me anyone overcoming something like that, I'll consider it. But otherwise you're really going wild here.

And this isn't just a bad role on the Jazz thing. This guy played 900 NBA games and ended his career with a VORP of 4.0. Show me a single player who was a top 5 guy on a title team's rotation who played even 700 games who didn't have a career VORP over that.

Kyle Kuzma literally had a -2.6BPM while being the third highest scorer of the 2020 Lakers team that won the chip (top 5 in minutes as well) but OK.

Even if y'all think Jeff Malone was committing crimes against basketball as a below replacement player (nevermind that the coaching staff, who should have the most insight continued to give him significant minutes in the RS and playoffs) the overriding point, which you completely missed, was:

(it wasn't Jeff malone) stopped Utah from getting rings - it was that for the most part they weren't even close, closest being in '92 vs the Blazers - in large part because Terry Porter bullied "elite defender" John Stockton up and down for his highest scoring and arguably best series

I'm not going to engage in bubble ball. But Kuzma was 4th in scoring in the disney princess event.

And of course the Jazz weren't close with Jeff. He was terrible and cost them in seeding and in the playoffs. We're after all talking about a series where Jeff had a TS% of 49.4 and was taking nearly 17 shots a game...

Ah micro focus on Jeff Malone as if he sabotaged their offense when the Jazz had a 113 ORTG that series, literally above their RS numbers. Ofc Portland had 120 ORTG, so..

Just ignore that John Stockton's matchup at PG (who never got kudos as some upper-tier offense master) had 26PPG on 14 shots at 72.4% TS, with 9 FTA/game (yeah real great defense right here) . And to make matters worse he shrank on scoring (as usual) with 14PPG and the usual efficiency was nowhere to be found. But hey like all the Stockton defenders just assign blame to everyone else.

[dhsilv2]

Kyle Kuzma literally had a -2.6BPM while being the third highest scorer of the 2020 Lakers team that won the chip (top 5 in minutes as well) but OK.

Even if y'all think Jeff Malone was committing crimes against basketball as a below replacement player (nevermind that the coaching staff, who should have the most insight continued to give him significant minutes in the RS and playoffs) the overriding point, which you completely missed, was:

I'm not going to engage in bubble ball. But Kuzma was 4th in scoring in the disney princess event.

And of course the Jazz weren't close with Jeff. He was terrible and cost them in seeding and in the playoffs. We're after all talking about a series where Jeff had a TS% of 49.4 and was taking nearly 17 shots a game...

Ah micro focus on Jeff Malone as if he sabotaged their offense when the Jazz had a 113 ORTG that series, literally above their RS numbers. Ofc Portland had 120 ORTG, so..

Just ignore that John Stockton's matchup at PG (who never got kudos as some upper-tier offense master) had 26PPG on 14 shots at 72.4% TS, with 9 FTA/game (yeah real great defense right here) . And to make matters worse he shrank on scoring (as usual) with 14PPG and the usual efficiency was nowhere to be found. But hey like all the Stockton defenders just assign blame to everyone else.

Jeff was the worst defender on the Jazz and he slowed their offense down, despite them overall playing well.

I'll add I think much more highly of Porter than some do...so at least here. Porter having an insane series doesn't really seem like a talking point.

[theonlyclutch]

I'm not going to engage in bubble ball. But Kuzma was 4th in scoring in the disney princess event.

And of course the Jazz weren't close with Jeff. He was terrible and cost them in seeding and in the playoffs. We're after all talking about a series where Jeff had a TS% of 49.4 and was taking nearly 17 shots a game...

Ah micro focus on Jeff Malone as if he sabotaged their offense when the Jazz had a 113 ORTG that series, literally above their RS numbers. Ofc Portland had 120 ORTG, so..

Just ignore that John Stockton's matchup at PG (who never got kudos as some upper-tier offense master) had 26PPG on 14 shots at 72.4% TS, with 9 FTA/game (yeah real great defense right here) . And to make matters worse he shrank on scoring (as usual) with 14PPG and the usual efficiency was nowhere to be found. But hey like all the Stockton defenders just assign blame to everyone else.

Jeff was the worst defender on the Jazz and he slowed their offense down, despite them overall playing well.

I'll add I think much more highly of Porter than some do...so at least here. Porter having an insane series doesn't really seem like a talking point.

It would be easier to treat as a one-off if that's not also what happened in '91 to a lesser extent. Terry Porter also was able to increase his volume significantly in that series (c. 17 to 22ppg) with zero effect on efficiency.

But hey for the sake of argument pin that on Jeff Malone as well despite Stockton being the guy at PoA.

Fast forward to '94 and basketball holocaust creator Malone leaves for Hornacek.

Jordan's retired now, the field is wide open for the first time, you'd think that would be ample motivation to take advantage..

And then Kenny Smith of all people was able to significantly increase his volume and efficiency (11ppg to 14-17ppg) against the Jazz in their playoff matchup, twice. Being guarded primarily by Stockton, Kenny had his best series against the Jazz in both rockets championship runs. It's not even just the hot shooting (though ofc there was) but Kenny's FTAs spike in those UTA series (see a pattern?) another great defensive showcase here.

The Jazz weren't grave underdogs in both, they had roughly equal SRS in '94 and were big SRS favorites in '95. Beating the Rockets in '94 gets them to the not-invincible Knicks in the finals while clearing in '95 gets them the Suns (OK match-up), Spurs (awesome match-up) and then Orlando (who-knows but Shaq had lots of problems with the Jazz in PO) . The Jazz fumbling their chances these two years has a lot to do with Stockton disappointing in the playoffs, again.

[tsherkin]

It would be easier to treat as a one-off if that's not also what happened in '91 to a lesser extent. Terry Porter also was able to increase his volume significantly in that series (c. 17 to 22ppg) with zero effect on efficiency.

Yeah, I don't think it's any grand revelation to say the 6'1 guy who didn't have top-tier fast-twitch tools struggled against guys with size and athleticism. He was a great team defender and he was gritty and gave full effort against everyone, but physical tools could overwhelm him. Payton beat the crap out of him in 96, Smith and Porter gave him the business, it's a pretty consistent trend.

[dhsilv2]

Ah micro focus on Jeff Malone as if he sabotaged their offense when the Jazz had a 113 ORTG that series, literally above their RS numbers. Ofc Portland had 120 ORTG, so..

Just ignore that John Stockton's matchup at PG (who never got kudos as some upper-tier offense master) had 26PPG on 14 shots at 72.4% TS, with 9 FTA/game (yeah real great defense right here) . And to make matters worse he shrank on scoring (as usual) with 14PPG and the usual efficiency was nowhere to be found. But hey like all the Stockton defenders just assign blame to everyone else.

Jeff was the worst defender on the Jazz and he slowed their offense down, despite them overall playing well.

I'll add I think much more highly of Porter than some do...so at least here. Porter having an insane series doesn't really seem like a talking point.

It would be easier to treat as a one-off if that's not also what happened in '91 to a lesser extent. Terry Porter also was able to increase his volume significantly in that series (c. 17 to 22ppg) with zero effect on efficiency.

But hey for the sake of argument pin that on Jeff Malone as well despite Stockton being the guy at PoA.

Fast forward to '94 and basketball holocaust creator Malone leaves for Hornacek.

Jordan's retired now, the field is wide open for the first time, you'd think that would be ample motivation to take advantage..

And then Kenny Smith of all people was able to significantly increase his volume and efficiency (11ppg to 14-17ppg) against the Jazz in their playoff matchup, twice. Being guarded primarily by Stockton, Kenny had his best series against the Jazz in both rockets championship runs. It's not even just the hot shooting (though ofc there was) but Kenny's FTAs spike in those UTA series (see a pattern?) another great defensive showcase here.

The Jazz weren't grave underdogs in both, they had roughly equal SRS in '94 and were big SRS favorites in '95. Beating the Rockets in '94 gets them to the not-invincible Knicks in the finals while clearing in '95 gets them the Suns (OK match-up), Spurs (awesome match-up) and then Orlando (who-knows but Shaq had lots of problems with the Jazz in PO) . The Jazz fumbling their chances these two years has a lot to do with Stockton disappointing in the playoffs, again.

So just so we're talking to each other and not at each other here.

Your argument is on Stockton's man defense (a guy who's known for his team/roaming defense) and you're using that to argue he was a poor playoff guy? And to do this, you're taking Porter that by some Metrics was even a top 10 player. And then Kenny Smith's 2 huge games in 94 (wasn't great in 3 of those games) and then his insane 13-17 3 point shooting in the first two games in 1995, which btw the rockets went 1-2. The rockets than went on to win games 4 and 5 with Smith shooting 4-8 and 2-7.

[SelfishPlayer]

The Jazz were a two man show. Those two positions that they played are some of the least valuable positions for winning championships. You'd be hard pressed to make a championship team with any combination of small true point guard (only) and true power forward (only) in the history of the game. Two guys with zero positional versatility. The Clippers tried to do it with Blake and CP3 while also having a starting SG in Reddick that couldn't guard wings much like Hornacek and Jeff Malone. It was bad team building.

[tsherkin]

Chris Paul and Tyrese Haliburton are two recent examples of what a highly efficient pass-first PG can accomplish in today's game.

Chris Paul was 5th in MVP voting in 2021 at age 35. He was 1st or 2nd Team All-NBA in nearly every healthy season of his prime.
Tyrese Haliburton was probably the 5th place MVP and destined for All-NBA 1st or 2nd team until the injury

I see no reason why Stockton couldn't be in the same tier - a guy who would consistently rank in the 5-15 range in MVP voting and be a 2nd or 3rd team All-NBA guy most seasons with maybe a couple seasons on 1st team. I figure Stockton is just a hair worse than healthy prime Chris Paul, and a little better than Haliburton.

So, there are differences between those guys and Stockton. Hali, of course, is much larger and a better shooter. And also a much more willing/aggressive shooter.

And Paul is one of the best mid-range shooters in league history, plus also more advanced in his usage of screens. I don't think he's a particularly good corollary for Stockton.

Like, due respect to Stockton. I'm not in One_and_Done's camp here, I think Stockton would be a very valuable player in today's game. Not a focal star, but a perennial All-Star and a very positive influence on a team offense. I just don't think he would shoot any more than he did in his own time, nor would he likely be a ton more aggressive in general. He might take more 3s so that his efficiency could match up, and he'd surely love the return to faster tempos, but he was who he was mentality-wise.

[theonlyclutch]

It would be easier to treat as a one-off if that's not also what happened in '91 to a lesser extent. Terry Porter also was able to increase his volume significantly in that series (c. 17 to 22ppg) with zero effect on efficiency.

Yeah, I don't think it's any grand revelation to say the 6'1 guy who didn't have top-tier fast-twitch tools struggled against guys with size and athleticism. He was a great team defender and he was gritty and gave full effort against everyone, but physical tools could overwhelm him. Payton beat the crap out of him in 96, Smith and Porter gave him the business, it's a pretty consistent trend.

It isn't a surprise no, Stockton is ultimately limited by his physical tools. What is sadly not surprising is that people in this very thread pretending that doesn't matter and stating his defense would fully translate. Just about every modern premier PG has either size and/or athleticism on Stockton with enough skill to capitalize, if Smith was able to give him the business back then what happens against Fox? Kyrie? Curry? Get screened/ stuck on Luka/SGA and see how much grit and effort matter. Which brings me to..

Modern defenses incorporate tons of switching into their schemes and modern offenses can and do hunt for favorable matchups to attack. Therefore it's necessary for defenders to be versatile in covering multiple types of player. Taking that into consideration instantly knocks Stockton several rungs down the ladder and makes him miles more limited than say a Jrue Holiday, Derrick White, or Jalen Suggs. His best modern analogues in terms of height (CP3/Lowry) have clearly stronger bases and can hold up alright against bigger players. It's possible to build a scheme where he gets actively hidden from the point of attack and helps but at that point is that even like, a good guard defender, let alone a great one?

[tsherkin]

What is sadly not surprising is that people in this very thread pretending that doesn't matter and stating his defense would fully translate. Just about every modern premier PG has either size and/or athleticism on Stockton with enough skill to capitalize,

And we have seen smaller guys like Paul and Trae and so forth struggle with larger guys as well, so it isn't an odd extension to believe the same of someone like Stockton. That he might give it back on the other end is, of course, another consideration, but still. It'd definitely be a point of contention which would change his relative value.

[iggymcfrack]

Top 5 is a REAL stretch. He does not have the ball handling abilities that are needed today to be a top level guard. He'd probably do better being a shooting guard or some type of combo than the pure point that he was. It's just the nature of guards needing to be elite creators for themselves in the current NBA. I say maybe top 15. There's no way I can get him above: Steph, Luka, Shai, Brunson, Hali, Maxey, Ja, Dame, Fox, Trae, Ky.

John Stockton would need to be a shooting guard in today’s NBA is the worst take I’ve heard this month. Congrats.

[tsherkin]

Top 5 is a REAL stretch. He does not have the ball handling abilities that are needed today to be a top level guard. He'd probably do better being a shooting guard or some type of combo than the pure point that he was. It's just the nature of guards needing to be elite creators for themselves in the current NBA. I say maybe top 15. There's no way I can get him above: Steph, Luka, Shai, Brunson, Hali, Maxey, Ja, Dame, Fox, Trae, Ky.

This doesn't make sense to me. Given the level of screen usage in today's game, the need to be Kyrie-esque as a ball handler isn't really significant...

Also, the idea that Ja is clearly ahead of Stockton seems a stretch to me.

[One_and_Done]

Chris Paul and Tyrese Haliburton are two recent examples of what a highly efficient pass-first PG can accomplish in today's game.

Chris Paul was 5th in MVP voting in 2021 at age 35. He was 1st or 2nd Team All-NBA in nearly every healthy season of his prime.
Tyrese Haliburton was probably the 5th place MVP and destined for All-NBA 1st or 2nd team until the injury

I see no reason why Stockton couldn't be in the same tier - a guy who would consistently rank in the 5-15 range in MVP voting and be a 2nd or 3rd team All-NBA guy most seasons with maybe a couple seasons on 1st team. I figure Stockton is just a hair worse than healthy prime Chris Paul, and a little better than Haliburton.

So, there are differences between those guys and Stockton. Hali, of course, is much larger and a better shooter. And also a much more willing/aggressive shooter.

And Paul is one of the best mid-range shooters in league history, plus also more advanced in his usage of screens. I don't think he's a particularly good corollary for Stockton.

Like, due respect to Stockton. I'm not in One_and_Done's camp here, I think Stockton would be a very valuable player in today's game. Not a focal star, but a perennial All-Star and a very positive influence on a team offense. I just don't think he would shoot any more than he did in his own time, nor would he likely be a ton more aggressive in general. He might take more 3s so that his efficiency could match up, and he'd surely love the return to faster tempos, but he was who he was mentality-wise.

You always say stuff like "I don't agree with One and Done", but on closer inspection you often do, or the difference is so minor as to be one of degrees. I said Stockton would be maybe a top 25-30 player today. You have him about there too I assume?

[One_and_Done]

Stockton cooked a modern-type player in Gilbert Arenas at age 40 head to head.

April 2002
Stockton: 26pts, 9 assists, 4steals, 0 Turnovers, 63.6% FG
Gilbert: 16pts, 7 assists, 1blk, 4 Turnovers...50% FG. And fouled out in 28 minutes

He would cook a lot of guards in today's game with today's rules.

That was before he was Arenas, not that Arenas is some world beater.