Shams: New York Knicks Fire Head Coach Tom Thibodeau

[kobyz]

Good move to get Mike Malone, that's what they need

[hundreth]

Thought they'd fire him. He's not great, but the Knicks are a fairly flawed team that couldve went to the finals if not for the game 1 collapse (which is on the players).

The only reason the Knicks made it this far is because of the players, not Thibs.

Did you ever wonder why in every single series the Knicks played from behind and pulled off a comeback in the 4th quarter? When the majority of the game is based on your offensive system, you will be drowning when you have none. In the 4th quarter every team reverts to ISO. In this scenario the Knicks players are very talented and very clutch. They were able to pull out miracles the entire post season.

Are the Knicks some incredibly talented team that shouldve been better than they are with Tom holding them back? Im honestly trying to understand. They won in spite of him? But when they lose because their top 2 is outplayed by the other teams top 2, it's still him and not the players? Theyre in the finals if Brunson/Towns are the better duo in the CF's...the players failed here, not the coach.

Yes. You're starting to get it now. The Knicks should have been better.

They're not in the conference finals without those 2 top players going supernova in the clutch. When they ran into a team that is also clutch AND has a great system, they couldn't overcome.

[reload141]

I understand a re-thread may not work but for every 1 Mark Daigneault, there's a few more Wes Unseld Jr, Chauncey Billups, Kokoskov, Earl Watson, etc.

I agree but its a risk we have to take to make it further. Thibs is not a bad coach but he had some very severe flaws that limited our ceiling.

Every coach has flaws—just like every roster does. I don’t understand the logic behind calling the firing a “necessary risk.” The coaching staff should’ve been given a chance to retool and learn from last year’s mistakes. Starting over doesn’t solve the underlying issues with the roster or player personnel. This isn’t even a calculated risk—there’s no clear upgrade available. It feels more like an unnecessary gamble made just for the sake of change.

100% this. New York are going to regret this decision, they are going to be taking a step back here while everyone adjusts to the new coaches system.

[mademan]

The only reason the Knicks made it this far is because of the players, not Thibs.

Did you ever wonder why in every single series the Knicks played from behind and pulled off a comeback in the 4th quarter? When the majority of the game is based on your offensive system, you will be drowning when you have none. In the 4th quarter every team reverts to ISO. In this scenario the Knicks players are very talented and very clutch. They were able to pull out miracles the entire post season.

Are the Knicks some incredibly talented team that shouldve been better than they are with Tom holding them back? Im honestly trying to understand. They won in spite of him? But when they lose because their top 2 is outplayed by the other teams top 2, it's still him and not the players? Theyre in the finals if Brunson/Towns are the better duo in the CF's...the players failed here, not the coach.

Yes. You're starting to get it now. The Knicks should have been better.

They're not in the conference finals without those 2 top players going supernova in the clutch. When they ran into a team that is also clutch AND has a great system, they couldn't overcome.

No, when they played a team that could match their top 2, their lack of depth got exposed. It's Thibs fault that he's going to Mcbride and Shamet on the bench while Indy is going to Obi/Mcconell/Math? The knicks are a top heavy team, and when that teams top is outplayed, they lose. Brunson/KAT failed against Indiana...thats why theyre not in the finals today

[TheGOATRises007]

Very very harsh.

Most successful season in 25 years and you can the guy.

Maybe blame should be put towards the guy who decides to trade loads of draft picks for Bridges.

[hundreth]

I understand a re-thread may not work but for every 1 Mark Daigneault, there's a few more Wes Unseld Jr, Chauncey Billups, Kokoskov, Earl Watson, etc.

I agree but its a risk we have to take to make it further. Thibs is not a bad coach but he had some very severe flaws that limited our ceiling.

Every coach has flaws—just like every roster does. I don’t understand the logic behind calling the firing a “necessary risk.” The coaching staff should’ve been given a chance to retool and learn from last year’s mistakes. Starting over doesn’t solve the underlying issues with the roster or player personnel. This isn’t even a calculated risk—there’s no clear upgrade available. It feels more like an unnecessary gamble made just for the sake of change.

So the Knicks should take a chance that Thibs is going to learn how to run an offense next year? That he's not the same coach he's been his entire career?

You call the Knicks moving on a gamble but not that?

Should the Knicks waste another year only to discover that Thibs yet again ran his players into the ground and went Brunson ISO all post season? Big surprise. Even if the Knicks don't win next season you start to turn the ship in the right direction.

[Deivork]

If feels risky, but also ballsy. It will happen anyway, but I don't want this to be judged on whether Knicks succeed or not in the future. You don't judge decisions on hindsight, this should be judged only on what we know today. Could pay off.

[hundreth]

Are the Knicks some incredibly talented team that shouldve been better than they are with Tom holding them back? Im honestly trying to understand. They won in spite of him? But when they lose because their top 2 is outplayed by the other teams top 2, it's still him and not the players? Theyre in the finals if Brunson/Towns are the better duo in the CF's...the players failed here, not the coach.

Yes. You're starting to get it now. The Knicks should have been better.

They're not in the conference finals without those 2 top players going supernova in the clutch. When they ran into a team that is also clutch AND has a great system, they couldn't overcome.

No, when they played a team that could match their top 2, their lack of depth got exposed. It's Thibs fault that he's going to Mcbride and Shamet on the bench while Indy is going to Obi/Mcconell/Math? The knicks are a top heavy team, and when that teams top is outplayed, they lose. Brunson/KAT failed against Indiana...thats why theyre not in the finals today

Two things can be true at once. The Knicks lack depth AND they got massively outcoached.

The Knicks are top heavy, but their starting five is extremely talented and overall more talented than the Pacers'. We never maximized the rest of our starting five. Most games throughout the postseason one of OG or Bridges disappears and watches Brunson / Towns take turns ISOing.

Perhaps even with top tier coaching the Knicks still would have lost the series, I don't know. But no one can tell me Thibs got the most out of that roster. No chance.

[Zenzibar]

Read on Twitter

sounds like it was the players decision to get thibs out of here

How can any team hope to build continuity anymore when player empowerment has quietly shifted from roster control to dictating coaching decisions—allowing players to dodge accountability and even force a head coach’s firing?

To say that the players fired Thibs is somewhat narrow-minded. The executive team, has been watching this team and if anything have arrived at some glaring conclusions. The players was sort of gathering intel on their experience this year.

But trust me, when I tell you that it was management that made this decision.

[TheGOATRises007]

Yes. You're starting to get it now. The Knicks should have been better.

They're not in the conference finals without those 2 top players going supernova in the clutch. When they ran into a team that is also clutch AND has a great system, they couldn't overcome.

No, when they played a team that could match their top 2, their lack of depth got exposed. It's Thibs fault that he's going to Mcbride and Shamet on the bench while Indy is going to Obi/Mcconell/Math? The knicks are a top heavy team, and when that teams top is outplayed, they lose. Brunson/KAT failed against Indiana...thats why theyre not in the finals today

Two things can be true at once. The Knicks lack depth AND they got massively outcoached.

The Knicks are top heavy, but their starting five is extremely talented and overall more talented than the Pacers'. We never maximized the rest of our starting five. Most games throughout the postseason one of OG or Bridges disappears and watches Brunson / Towns take turns ISOing.

Perhaps even with top tier coaching the Knicks still would have lost the series, I don't know. But no one can tell me Thibs got the most out of that roster. No chance.

I don't think people will agree with you.

[hundreth]

No, when they played a team that could match their top 2, their lack of depth got exposed. It's Thibs fault that he's going to Mcbride and Shamet on the bench while Indy is going to Obi/Mcconell/Math? The knicks are a top heavy team, and when that teams top is outplayed, they lose. Brunson/KAT failed against Indiana...thats why theyre not in the finals today

Two things can be true at once. The Knicks lack depth AND they got massively outcoached.

The Knicks are top heavy, but their starting five is extremely talented and overall more talented than the Pacers'. We never maximized the rest of our starting five. Most games throughout the postseason one of OG or Bridges disappears and watches Brunson / Towns take turns ISOing.

Perhaps even with top tier coaching the Knicks still would have lost the series, I don't know. But no one can tell me Thibs got the most out of that roster. No chance.

I don't think people will agree with you.

Now they won't, because it's a narratives driven league. But before the series the general board had the Knicks as the favorites to win the series. Why? Which is it?

[phanman]

I agree but its a risk we have to take to make it further. Thibs is not a bad coach but he had some very severe flaws that limited our ceiling.

Every coach has flaws—just like every roster does. I don’t understand the logic behind calling the firing a “necessary risk.” The coaching staff should’ve been given a chance to retool and learn from last year’s mistakes. Starting over doesn’t solve the underlying issues with the roster or player personnel. This isn’t even a calculated risk—there’s no clear upgrade available. It feels more like an unnecessary gamble made just for the sake of change.

So the Knicks should take a chance that Thibs is going to learn how to run an offense next year? That he's not the same coach he's been his entire career?

You call the Knicks moving on a gamble but not that?

Should the Knicks waste another year only to discover that Thibs yet again ran his players into the ground and went Brunson ISO all post season? Big surprise. Even if the Knicks don't win next season you start to turn the ship in the right direction.

You keep regurgitating the fact he can't coach and offense but somehow ignore the fact that they finished 5th in ORTG at 118.5. Offense wasn't the issue against Indiana, it was their defense and the inability to slow down that ridiculous pace that the Pacers ran. Outside of Mikal, every other starter shot > 56%TS. The star duo in particular played well offensively:
- Brunson 30.7pts & 5.7ast on 63.2%TS (50/35/92)
- KAT 24.8pts & 1.8ast on 60.7%TS (50/37/77)

I think it's insane they fired Thibs. He had his flaws, but he also did what few coaches can do and that is have his guys play hard. The history of past Knicks coaches is not impressive at all. People who keep mentioning Malone, need to realize he has the same flaw of overplaying his starting unit.

[TheGOATRises007]

Two things can be true at once. The Knicks lack depth AND they got massively outcoached.

The Knicks are top heavy, but their starting five is extremely talented and overall more talented than the Pacers'. We never maximized the rest of our starting five. Most games throughout the postseason one of OG or Bridges disappears and watches Brunson / Towns take turns ISOing.

Perhaps even with top tier coaching the Knicks still would have lost the series, I don't know. But no one can tell me Thibs got the most out of that roster. No chance.

I don't think people will agree with you.

Now they won't, because it's a narratives driven league. But before the series the general board had the Knicks as the favorites to win the series. Why? Which is it?

Pretty sure the voting was close.

Not like the Knicks were overwhelming favorites.

And the general board isn't the main judge of anything.

The starting 5 are pretty evenly matched in talent.

[Zenzibar]

The only reason the Knicks made it this far is because of the players, not Thibs.

Did you ever wonder why in every single series the Knicks played from behind and pulled off a comeback in the 4th quarter? When the majority of the game is based on your offensive system, you will be drowning when you have none. In the 4th quarter every team reverts to ISO. In this scenario the Knicks players are very talented and very clutch. They were able to pull out miracles the entire post season.

Are the Knicks some incredibly talented team that shouldve been better than they are with Tom holding them back? Im honestly trying to understand. They won in spite of him? But when they lose because their top 2 is outplayed by the other teams top 2, it's still him and not the players? Theyre in the finals if Brunson/Towns are the better duo in the CF's...the players failed here, not the coach.

Yes. You're starting to get it now. The Knicks should have been better.

They're not in the conference finals without those 2 top players going supernova in the clutch. When they ran into a team that is also clutch AND has a great system, they couldn't overcome.

I agree with your point. Even in the first round against Detroit, I was wondering why the Team's game plan was not attacking Tobias Harris, who is an awful defender. That's on the scheme a decision made by the coaches.

Sure the players failed in game 6, but ultimately, not calling the proper timeouts and losing game 1 @ home or losing again in game 2 @ home may have cost Thibs his seat.

[Mamba81p]

What is the point in having Thibs as your coach if your defense is subpar? You can defend him by saying guys like Brunson and Towns hurt the ability to have a good defense...However, then wouldn't it be smarter to have a coach who can devise ways to score more efficiently?

You can look at it the other way too. If the defense is not good enough with thibs, how bad will it be with another coach?
In terms of offense, I don't know what type of offense can you implement with Brunson holding the ball so much. Tom Thibodeau is not known to run just iso offense. He even used triangle sets/principles in Chicago, and that is the opposite of iso basketball.

[hundreth]

I don't think people will agree with you.

Now they won't, because it's a narratives driven league. But before the series the general board had the Knicks as the favorites to win the series. Why? Which is it?

Pretty sure the voting was close.

Not like the Knicks were overwhelming favorites.

And the general board isn't the main judge of anything.

The starting 5 are pretty evenly matched in talent.

So you watched the series and felt that Thibs got the most out of that team?

[TheGOATRises007]

Now they won't, because it's a narratives driven league. But before the series the general board had the Knicks as the favorites to win the series. Why? Which is it?

Pretty sure the voting was close.

Not like the Knicks were overwhelming favorites.

And the general board isn't the main judge of anything.

The starting 5 are pretty evenly matched in talent.

So you watched the series and felt that Thibs got the most out of that team?

That's debatable, but the Knicks aren't this insanely talented team and they underachieved this season. It was a good season.

You got to the ECF and were 2 wins away from the finals. Thibs isn't perfect, but your 2 best players are negative defenders. It's not easy to hide 2 negative defenders in the late stages of the playoffs and you don't have Gobert roaming about to hide KAT.

The bigger issue is the roster being capped out after the Bridges trade. Should have saved those assets.

[JulesWinnfield]

I think Thibs is a good coach. I have always been a fan, and as a Knicks fan I’m super appreciative of what he did here. With that said, he made the playoffs 4 times and all 4 times the Knicks season ended in a series where they had home court advantage. There were varying reasons for this, injuries and/or losing to the heat the year they made the finals as an 8 seed when we weren’t as good as them despite what the seeds were. But still. Especially the last two seasons against Indiana. It was not expected to lose these series. Last year the injuries decimated the team. This year there really wasn’t an excuse. I feel the Knicks were the better team. I’ll die thinking that.

[hundreth]

Every coach has flaws—just like every roster does. I don’t understand the logic behind calling the firing a “necessary risk.” The coaching staff should’ve been given a chance to retool and learn from last year’s mistakes. Starting over doesn’t solve the underlying issues with the roster or player personnel. This isn’t even a calculated risk—there’s no clear upgrade available. It feels more like an unnecessary gamble made just for the sake of change.

So the Knicks should take a chance that Thibs is going to learn how to run an offense next year? That he's not the same coach he's been his entire career?

You call the Knicks moving on a gamble but not that?

Should the Knicks waste another year only to discover that Thibs yet again ran his players into the ground and went Brunson ISO all post season? Big surprise. Even if the Knicks don't win next season you start to turn the ship in the right direction.

You keep regurgitating the fact he can't coach and offense but somehow ignore the fact that they finished 5th in ORTG at 118.5. Offense wasn't the issue against Indiana, it was their defense and the inability to slow down that ridiculous pace that the Pacers ran. Outside of Mikal, every other starter shot > 56%TS. The star duo in particular played well offensively:
- Brunson 30.7pts & 5.7ast on 63.2%TS (50/35/92)
- KAT 24.8pts & 1.8ast on 60.7%TS (50/37/77)

I think it's insane they fired Thibs. He had his flaws, but he also did what few coaches can do and that is have his guys play hard. The history of past Knicks coaches is not impressive at all. People who keep mentioning Malone, need to realize he has the same flaw of overplaying his starting unit.

Man I don't care what the numbers say because we all watched the series with our own eyes. Brunson and Towns making circus shots all series to keep us in it doesn't change the fact that the offense was horrific. If you look at the Knicks game threads throughout the entire postseason you will see fans from every team clown our offense and wonder why we don't run any plays. We look completely different from every other team in the league.

[mademan]

Two things can be true at once. The Knicks lack depth AND they got massively outcoached.

The Knicks are top heavy, but their starting five is extremely talented and overall more talented than the Pacers'. We never maximized the rest of our starting five. Most games throughout the postseason one of OG or Bridges disappears and watches Brunson / Towns take turns ISOing.

Perhaps even with top tier coaching the Knicks still would have lost the series, I don't know. But no one can tell me Thibs got the most out of that roster. No chance.

I don't think people will agree with you.

Now they won't, because it's a narratives driven league. But before the series the general board had the Knicks as the favorites to win the series. Why? Which is it?

Because most people thought the Knicks had the best player and 2 out of the top 3. If you had told people that Brunson would not be the best player and Brunson/KAT would not be the best duo, i think the voting would change pretty quick. They were seperated in the RS by what, 2 games? This was an even series where Siakam really stepped up and KAT/Brunson's defense were really exposed (especially when they shared the court).

Could perfect coaching have saved them, maybe. But perfect coaching doesnt exist. Fire him, dont fire him, maybe you get better, maybe you get worse. But they are in the finals today if their best guys play better than the other teams best guys. And no matter who they get to coach them next year, the same will remain true. They only win when their best is the best on the court