Was Hakeem Olajuwon's post-up game a little overrated?

[Masigond]

DeAndre Jordan has a career FG% of 67%, he must be GOAT!

Not helpful. The users who point out that there might be some players who are superior to Hakeem as post-up players take context into account awfully well. Noone would consider a low-volume player like DeAndre Jordan who can't create his own shot (and who had not much of a post-up game to speak of) as a superior post-up player to Olajuwon.

Next, please.

[Parasite]

The Dream had some of the best feet work ever. I call it feet work, cause they use both of them.

Pure low post scorer, I've not seen anyone better that McHale.

Strictly low post scoring, I’m taking McHale as well. Agree.

[BarbaGrizz]

DeAndre Jordan has a career FG% of 67%, he must be GOAT!

Not helpful. The users who point out that there might be some players who are superior to Hakeem as post-up players take context into account awfully well. Noone would consider a low-volume player like DeAndre Jordan who can't create his own shot (and who had not much of a post-up game to speak of) as a superior post-up player to Olajuwon.

Next, please.

OP is pointing that FG% is a good measure to assess this question, so by his standards DeAndre Jordan belongs to the conversation. Next, please.

[Masigond]

DeAndre Jordan has a career FG% of 67%, he must be GOAT!

Not helpful. The users who point out that there might be some players who are superior to Hakeem as post-up players take context into account awfully well. Noone would consider a low-volume player like DeAndre Jordan who can't create his own shot (and who had not much of a post-up game to speak of) as a superior post-up player to Olajuwon.

Next, please.

OP is pointing that FG% is a good measure to assess this question, so by his standards DeAndre Jordan belongs to the conversation. Next, please.

OP made it very clear which players Hakeem would have to be compared to. There are more standards than just plain FG%, and that's not that hard to understand. You missed that context completely.

[benson13]

Maybe. He took a lot of tough shots. That baseline fadeaway probably wasn't the greatest goto move in retrospect.

That said, his ability to hit tough shots from 15 feet away as a center is part of what made him special.

[70sFan]

Beautiful breakdown. I was waiting for your input, seeing as how you've tracked a lot of these post-up greats.

IIRC, Dipper's tracking had 93-95 Hakeem's post-up scoring at 1.12 ppp on 16.5-17.0 poss/g & 69-80 Kareem's at 1.09 ppp on similar volume. 98, 00, 01 playoff Shaq at 0.98 ppp on 17.6 poss/g. 64-72 Wilt's was 1.18 ppp. Incredibly small samples for Chamberlain and Abdul-Jabbar. 88-96 Barkley was 1.64 ppp on like 4.5 poss/g. Absolutely insane efficiency on lower volume. 90-93 MJ around 1.2 ppp on similar volume, I think.

Based on Dipper's numbers, I'd say Kareem's is the most impressive. 1.09 ppp in arguably the most defensive era in NBA history, with no Illegal Defense Guidelines or three-point line. A simple comparison of league average ORtg ÷ (post-up ppp x 100) x poss/g would show this.

That being said, Synergy-style post-up play-type stats can't account for post positioning and how it segues into other play types, like rolls, cuts, lobs, and putbacks. Even z-bounds/rebounding one's own missed FGAs. Shaq and, to a lesser extent, Dwight are the best examples of this. Edey at Purdue, too. I guess this is the off-ball component of post play.

I do have numbers for z-bounds (not for post-ups only, but overall), so I will try to get some data from my harddrive later.

Dipper data is similar to mine for Hakeem and Shaq. I think Kareem looks a bit better in my sample, which is much larger than his. Wilt's completely different because Dipper relied mostly on 1970s games that were available back then, now I added quite a lot of footage from his prime era.

[Drakeem]

DeAndre Jordan has a career FG% of 67%, he must be GOAT!

Not helpful. The users who point out that there might be some players who are superior to Hakeem as post-up players take context into account awfully well. Noone would consider a low-volume player like DeAndre Jordan who can't create his own shot (and who had not much of a post-up game to speak of) as a superior post-up player to Olajuwon.

Next, please.

OP is pointing that FG% is a good measure to assess this question, so by his standards DeAndre Jordan belongs to the conversation. Next, please.

Theres implied context there, and I’m sure you picked up on it but you wanted to be argumentative for arguments sake.

There is some discussion to be had if his moves, while as impressive as they were, maybe didn’t always lead to the best offence when looking at it from an analytical standpoint. However, I don’t think I’m willing to call him “overrated” offensively because there IS something to being able to make tough shots consistently. I see a lot of Kobe hate over some of this very same stuff, but when the playoffs come and you can’t get your easy looks, being able to take what the defence is giving you and have it feel natural.

I definitely wouldn’t put him as the best post/low block player ever (Shaq has to be the pick IMO), but that’s no slight to Hakeem.

[DAWill1128]

The guy who's post game doesn't get talked about enough is Charles Barkleys. Guy was so crafty in the post, as skilled as anyone. Mind you he was only 6-6 tops, maybe closer to 6-4 and would dominate all game inside, a lot of times scoring with multiple guys draped all over him.

Duncan I will say is the most patient I have ever seen a big guy in the post. Just surveying the floor, never getting rushed, always making the right play, never forcing it.

[70sFan]

. I definitely wouldn’t put him as the best post/low block player ever (Shaq has to be the pick IMO), but that’s no slight to Hakeem.

Why Shaq has to be over Kareem?

[ropjhk]

The initial OP analysis is very shallow but enough to start a discussion.

The brilliance of Hakeem's post up game is how well it held up in the playoffs. Turnaround midrange jumpers are not the highest percentage shot but in the playoffs they are often the only shot available. Given the makeup of his teams, Hakeem's offense was just what they needed given his role. His post game was near unstoppable, defended by some of the best Cs of all time, during his championship runs.

Playoff basketball is when the easy shots get taken away and the superior skills of superstars are put on display.

[SportsGuru08]

The guy who's post game doesn't get talked about enough is Charles Barkleys. Guy was so crafty in the post, as skilled as anyone. Mind you he was only 6-6 tops, maybe closer to 6-4 and would dominate all game inside, a lot of times scoring with multiple guys draped all over him.

Duncan I will say is the most patient I have ever seen a big guy in the post. Just surveying the floor, never getting rushed, always making the right play, never forcing it.

It helps that Barkley was stronger than anyone in the league not named Shaq or Karl Malone.