The ROTY/Rookie Discussion Thread, Part III

[Black Mage]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

[sixerswillrule]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

He missed the triple double against Brooklyn where he didn't sit out the 4th.

[bebopdeluxe]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

Neither Brown nor Simmons cares about statistics or records. Why have the kid out there when they are up 30 in the 4th quarter - chasing records and locking up the ROY vote (if it is not stupidely wrapped-up already) - only to see him get hurt? It would be ridiculous.

Obviously, it would be nice if the national media took note of this fact - that Simmons could just obliterate this ROY ish if he played more minutes - but he doesn't because 1) the Sixers are kicking azz and taking names and don't need Simmons in the fourth because 2) the guy is often the primary reason they are up 30 going into the 4th quarter in the first place.

If Brown being conservative with Simmons in these situations (and there will likely be several more of them during these last 10 games, given the Sixers easy schedule) costs him the ROY because Mitchell will keep jacking 25-30 shots a game and POINTZ!!!, then so be it. He can have the award...we have the better player (something that the overwhelming majority of NBA GM's would agree with, IMO).

[Black Mage]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

He missed the triple double against Brooklyn where he didn't sit out the 4th.

You are correct, I misheard the stat, it would be 7 in 8 games. My bad, still an amazing feat to see from any rookie.

[commentatorer]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

Neither Brown nor Simmons cares about statistics or records. Why have the kid out there when they are up 30 in the 4th quarter - chasing records and locking up the ROY vote (if it is not stupidely wrapped-up already) - only to see him get hurt? It would be ridiculous.

Obviously, it would be nice if the national media took note of this fact - that Simmons could just obliterate this ROY ish if he played more minutes - but he doesn't because 1) the Sixers are kicking azz and taking names and don't need Simmons in the fourth because 2) the guy is often the primary reason they are up 30 going into the 4th quarter in the first place.

If Brown being conservative with Simmons in these situations (and there will likely be several more of them during these last 10 games, given the Sixers easy schedule) costs him the ROY because Mitchell will keep jacking 25-30 shots a game and POINTZ!!!, then so be it. He can have the award...we have the better player (something that the overwhelming majority of NBA GM's would agree with, IMO).

Plus I don't think triple-doubles are as important anymore, because Westbrook averaged a triple-double last year, and probably will again this year, so at least in my opinion triple-doubles feel a lot less important these days.

[michaelm]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

Neither Brown nor Simmons cares about statistics or records. Why have the kid out there when they are up 30 in the 4th quarter - chasing records and locking up the ROY vote (if it is not stupidely wrapped-up already) - only to see him get hurt? It would be ridiculous.

Obviously, it would be nice if the national media took note of this fact - that Simmons could just obliterate this ROY ish if he played more minutes - but he doesn't because 1) the Sixers are kicking azz and taking names and don't need Simmons in the fourth because 2) the guy is often the primary reason they are up 30 going into the 4th quarter in the first place.

If Brown being conservative with Simmons in these situations (and there will likely be several more of them during these last 10 games, given the Sixers easy schedule) costs him the ROY because Mitchell will keep jacking 25-30 shots a game and POINTZ!!!, then so be it. He can have the award...we have the better player (something that the overwhelming majority of NBA GM's would agree with, IMO).

All GMs would be ecstatic to have either player.

[Trugger]

Mitchell carries the side ,, don’t think so ,, but it’s not the 4th yet !

[cl2117]

The Mitchell vs. Simmons debate in here is incredibly cringe. (Some) Philly fans trying to downplay Mitchell by just saying things like POINTZ and Utah fans trying to suggest Simmons isn't for real shomehow. It's embarrassing to have to read. I'm refusing to comment on either of those guys in this thread for the rest of the year.

Other rookies that deserve mention:

Kyle Kuzma: The Kuz love trailed off after the start of the season, but this kid has been better post all-star break than he was pre and deserves some love. I know he's an older rookie and people doubt how much higher he can go from here, but what he's doing now is pretty damn good. For March he's averaging 18/8 on .46/.42 splits. Since the all-star game he's averaging 16/8 on .45/.42. He's got a long career ahead of him as a 3/4 in today's NBA and if he doesn't get overpaid like Batum he'll be a great asset (like Jae Crowder).

Luke Kennard: I think Kennard might end up being like Kelly Olynyk with the Celtics. Really solid draft pick that is good value for where he was drafted, contributes siginifcantly over his contract, but will always be overshadowed by what could have been because he went one draft pick before Mitchell (or in Olynyk's case 2 picks before Giannis).

He's been a good result as the #12 pick. He's got starter level upside, but at the very least will be a very capable bench player for yers to come. He's shot 40% from 3 all season and should be able to improve ball handling and defense. He's not Donovan Mitchell, but he's also not Malik Monk.

The big fellas: John Collins, Bam Adebayo, Jarrett Allen. All three of these guys have flashed some potential so far this year.

I've been most impressed with Collins and his efficiency and consistency. He's got a knack for scoring the ball in the paint and looks like he'll be a rebounding machine. He needs work on the defensive end of the floor, but I'm shocked he's gone so under the radar when he's averaging 10/7 for the year

Bam has been the second most impressive out of the 3 to me, but that's more based on his physical attributes than it is based on his actual production. I love his length and athleticism. I don't know if he'll ever be able to put it all together, but he's got measurables that will make you drool.

Allen has been on my radar from before he murdered Lauri Markannen, but I've definitely been paying more attention ever since. He's averaging close to what Collins has been (9/6 since the ASB), but I haven't been as impressed with his minutes. The kid is only 19 still though so the room for growth appears to be exponential.

[Winglish]

The Mitchell vs. Simmons debate in here is incredibly cringe. (Some) Philly fans trying to downplay Mitchell by just saying things like POINTZ and Utah fans trying to suggest Simmons isn't for real shomehow. It's embarrassing to have to read. I'm refusing to comment on either of those guys in this thread for the rest of the year.

Other rookies that deserve mention:

Kyle Kuzma: The Kuz love trailed off after the start of the season, but this kid has been better post all-star break than he was pre and deserves some love. I know he's an older rookie and people doubt how much higher he can go from here, but what he's doing now is pretty damn good. For March he's averaging 18/8 on .46/.42 splits. Since the all-star game he's averaging 16/8 on .45/.42. He's got a long career ahead of him as a 3/4 in today's NBA and if he doesn't get overpaid like Batum he'll be a great asset (like Jae Crowder).

Luke Kennard: I think Kennard might end up being like Kelly Olynyk with the Celtics. Really solid draft pick that is good value for where he was drafted, contributes siginifcantly over his contract, but will always be overshadowed by what could have been because he went one draft pick before Mitchell (or in Olynyk's case 2 picks before Giannis).

He's been a good result as the #12 pick. He's got starter level upside, but at the very least will be a very capable bench player for yers to come. He's shot 40% from 3 all season and should be able to improve ball handling and defense. He's not Donovan Mitchell, but he's also not Malik Monk.

The big fellas: John Collins, Bam Adebayo, Jarrett Allen. All three of these guys have flashed some potential so far this year.

I've been most impressed with Collins and his efficiency and consistency. He's got a knack for scoring the ball in the paint and looks like he'll be a rebounding machine. He needs work on the defensive end of the floor, but I'm shocked he's gone so under the radar when he's averaging 10/7 for the year

Bam has been the second most impressive out of the 3 to me, but that's more based on his physical attributes than it is based on his actual production. I love his length and athleticism. I don't know if he'll ever be able to put it all together, but he's got measurables that will make you drool.

Allen has been on my radar from before he murdered Lauri Markannen, but I've definitely been paying more attention ever since. He's averaging close to what Collins has been (9/6 since the ASB), but I haven't been as impressed with his minutes. The kid is only 19 still though so the room for growth appears to be exponential.

What Utah fan has EVER written anything negative about Simmons? I have read all 225 pages and I cannot find a single poster from the Utah Jazz board who has downplayed Simmons in any way.

(That pot stirring came from a couple of Boston guys from what I can see.)

We talk up Mitchell, yes.

Some 14 year old Philly fans, OTHH...

I don't think grown men or anyone with half a basketball brain is talking down the other team's guy. Both players are fantastic! Every franchise in the league would LOVE to have either player!

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[6ersfolife]

As a Sixers Die hard I love Mitchell. This is a co ROY if I ever saw one. It would be a crime for either of these kids not to get it. Watching them both make history has been enjoyable. At the beginning of the year I thought we'd be arguing Ben vs Ball. Then Kuzma and Tatum threw their name in the hat. This kid from Dallas named Smith forced his way in, and then rookies from all over the league started playing huge for their teams. What a rookie class we are watching as a whole!!! Enjoy it, it doesn't happen often that this many rookies make an impact on their team.

[SmartWentCrazy]

As a Sixers Die hard I love Mitchell. This is a co ROY if I ever saw one. It would be a crime for either of these kids not to get it. Watching them both make history has been enjoyable. At the beginning of the year I thought we'd be arguing Ben vs Ball. Then Kuzma and Tatum threw their name in the hat. This kid from Dallas named Smith forced his way in, and then rookies from all over the league started playing huge for their teams. What a rookie class we are watching as a whole!!! Enjoy it, it doesn't happen often that this many rookies make an impact on their team.

As a Celtics fan, I disagree. Its closer than some want to admit, but Simmons has won the award.

[bebopdeluxe]

As a Sixers Die hard I love Mitchell. This is a co ROY if I ever saw one. It would be a crime for either of these kids not to get it. Watching them both make history has been enjoyable. At the beginning of the year I thought we'd be arguing Ben vs Ball. Then Kuzma and Tatum threw their name in the hat. This kid from Dallas named Smith forced his way in, and then rookies from all over the league started playing huge for their teams. What a rookie class we are watching as a whole!!! Enjoy it, it doesn't happen often that this many rookies make an impact on their team.

As a Celtics fan, I disagree. Its closer than some want to admit, but Simmons has won the award.

And to say that Simmons is the "best" rookie does not mean that Mitchell - or Tatum - have not had ROY-worthy seasons, or that they will not also have incredibly productive careers. Obviously ANY of these three would have won the award last season (duh).

However, you have to pick one as "the best"...and for me that is clearly Simmons.

[Litany]

As a Sixers Die hard I love Mitchell. This is a co ROY if I ever saw one. It would be a crime for either of these kids not to get it. Watching them both make history has been enjoyable. At the beginning of the year I thought we'd be arguing Ben vs Ball. Then Kuzma and Tatum threw their name in the hat. This kid from Dallas named Smith forced his way in, and then rookies from all over the league started playing huge for their teams. What a rookie class we are watching as a whole!!! Enjoy it, it doesn't happen often that this many rookies make an impact on their team.

As a Celtics fan, I disagree. Its closer than some want to admit, but Simmons has won the award.

And to say that Simmons is the "best" rookie does not mean that Mitchell - or Tatum - have not had ROY-worthy seasons, or that they will not also have incredibly productive careers. Obviously ANY of these three would have won the award last season (duh).

However, you have to pick one as "the best"...and for me that is clearly Simmons.

And that's where you'll get an argument from people...the "clearly" part. I don't think it's clearly either player. Your shtick is to put a z at the end of Point to argue scoring is less important...Maybe I should start putting a Z at the end of Triple Doublez. I mean we're all seeing how much those Triple Doublez matter with Westbrooks team dominating the league and all...oh wait...

As a sidenote on the Sixers...Maybe it's time to give Embiid a lot more credit than he gets. Without Embiid that Sixers team doesn't even have a winning record let alone make the playoffs. He is huge. You almost forget how big he is until he's next to other bigs.

I think Mitchell and Simmons both have very credible and legit cases for winning rookie of the year. It's not clearly either way, they're both having amazing seasons.

[Mister Ze]

If Simmons doesn't sit out the 4th quarters against the Grizz and Magic we could have seen 7 straight triple doubles by a rookie. Brett Brown has robbed us of seeing a truly unique historical occurrence. What a shame.

And yet if he played and got injured in any way every Sixer fan would have wanted Brown's head for putting him out there for no reason.

Same logic can be applied to Curry and Klay's historic 3 quarter games where they could have broken records in the 4th. Always best not to do it.

[Mister Ze]

I remember the Raptors played the Jazz very early on in the season and I questioned how Mitchell fell so hard in the draft when he looked like a star.

A lot of people quickly shut me down saying he's inconsistent, it was just one game, he's gonna come back to earth etc. Looks like his doubters have been silenced. Meanwhile I still don't get how he was able to go under the radar.

[WalterBenjamin]

I remember the Raptors played the Jazz very early on in the season and I questioned how Mitchell fell so hard in the draft when he looked like a star.

A lot of people quickly shut me down saying he's inconsistent, it was just one game, he's gonna come back to earth etc. Looks like his doubters have been silenced. Meanwhile I still don't get how he was able to go under the radar.

Didn't show it in college. Mithel is an argument for kids going early out from college in to a pro style setting. you can develope much faster in the pros. Eaven in the season he is learning things fast. Some players just get the habbits to late. Especially bigs. Bigs just get to late to a setting that is more NBA play oriented. Some times it is just to late for them.

[clyde21]

It's remarkable how overrated and watered down the triple double stat has become.

[bebopdeluxe]

As a Celtics fan, I disagree. Its closer than some want to admit, but Simmons has won the award.

And to say that Simmons is the "best" rookie does not mean that Mitchell - or Tatum - have not had ROY-worthy seasons, or that they will not also have incredibly productive careers. Obviously ANY of these three would have won the award last season (duh).

However, you have to pick one as "the best"...and for me that is clearly Simmons.

And that's where you'll get an argument from people...the "clearly" part. I don't think it's clearly either player. Your shtick is to put a z at the end of Point to argue scoring is less important...Maybe I should start putting a Z at the end of Triple Doublez. I mean we're all seeing how much those Triple Doublez matter with Westbrooks team dominating the league and all...oh wait...

As a sidenote on the Sixers...Maybe it's time to give Embiid a lot more credit than he gets. Without Embiid that Sixers team doesn't even have a winning record let alone make the playoffs. He is huge. You almost forget how big he is until he's next to other bigs.

I think Mitchell and Simmons both have very credible and legit cases for winning rookie of the year. It's not clearly either way, they're both having amazing seasons.

Fair point about Embiid. By the way, what was the Jazz's record the last time Gobert was out?

(it was 4-and-11)

And while you - and other Jazz fans - may tire of POINTZ!!!, at the end of the day, it is the driving force behind what Mitchell brings to the table. For me, the amount of triple-doubles that Simmons has is not what is driving his candidacy...but they are an outcome of the sheer amount of PRODUCTION - across the entire stat sheet - that Simmons brings to the table.

The other thing that Mitchell supports will bring up is his 4th quarter production, and that his contributions to his team's success is somehow more valuable than Simmons. Putting aside for a moment the value-to-team comparison of a point guard versus a shooting guard (from a standpoint of running an offense and a team's overall offesnive success), if Mitchell's production and value to his team's success is so much greater than Simmons, then why is Mitchell FOURTH in WS, BPM and VORP on his team - despite being far and away #1 in usage rate? Huh?

I mean, I know these are somewhat imperfect stats...but FOURTH?

Simmons, on the other hand, leads his team in WS, BPM and VORP...despite being a distant second in usage to Embiid.

At what point do these stats - both player-versus-player as well as player-relative-to-team - mean something in this discussion? Huh?

Again - Mitchell has had a great season. Period. There is no debating this. I just want a Mitchell supporter to explain this MASSIVE differential in statistical impact in a way that makes this race "closer". Please provide some kind of non-subjective, non-"eyeball-test" argument as to why Mitchell is having a better season than Simmons. Any area - raw overall statistical production (i.e. "counting" stats), advanced analytics - either player-versus-player or player-value-to-team - that shows Mitchell's superiority, team success (no real advantage either way)...I mean, even in the two head-to-head meetings between Simmons and Mitchell, there was a clear difference:

In Utah (Gobert played - no Embiid)

Mitchell - 8 points (3-21), 2-11 from 3, 3 reb, 1 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 1 TO
Simmons - 16 points (7-22), 13 reb, 6 ast, 3 stl, 3 blk, 6 TO's

In Philadelphia (Embiid played - no Gobert)

Mitchell - 17 points (6-19), 1-7 from 3, 4 reb, 5 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk, 3 TO's
Simmons - 27 points (13-24), 10 reb, 2 ast, 4 stl, 0 blk, 4 TO's

We will see what the voters decide.

[Litany]

And to say that Simmons is the "best" rookie does not mean that Mitchell - or Tatum - have not had ROY-worthy seasons, or that they will not also have incredibly productive careers. Obviously ANY of these three would have won the award last season (duh).

However, you have to pick one as "the best"...and for me that is clearly Simmons.

And that's where you'll get an argument from people...the "clearly" part. I don't think it's clearly either player. Your shtick is to put a z at the end of Point to argue scoring is less important...Maybe I should start putting a Z at the end of Triple Doublez. I mean we're all seeing how much those Triple Doublez matter with Westbrooks team dominating the league and all...oh wait...

As a sidenote on the Sixers...Maybe it's time to give Embiid a lot more credit than he gets. Without Embiid that Sixers team doesn't even have a winning record let alone make the playoffs. He is huge. You almost forget how big he is until he's next to other bigs.

I think Mitchell and Simmons both have very credible and legit cases for winning rookie of the year. It's not clearly either way, they're both having amazing seasons.

Fair point about Embiid. By the way, what was the Jazz's record the last time Gobert was out?

(it was 4-and-11)

And while you - and other Jazz fans - may tire of POINTZ!!!, at the end of the day, it is the driving force behind what Mitchell brings to the table.

This is your failure. Not seeing how much more Mitchell does and is capable of ON TOP of the fact that he is a great scorer and how critical that is. You ignoring how much Mitchell has on his shoulders as the primary scorer on the team and what that requirement means.

When teams recognized what Mitchell was doing, they started to design their entire defense around stopping him from getting his...he is still scoring and has now passed the 20 ppg mark in his rookie season and the Jazz are a playoff team right now. You not understanding the value of having a guy who does this and simply dismissing him as a volume scorer is why nobody can have a rational discussion about this with you.

Simmons is fantastic at a lot of things but he also has glaring weaknesses (no jumpshot matters, even if you want to think it doesn't...it's like having a quarterback who can't pass in the pocket..sure RGIII got away with it for a bit, but it caught up to him...I'm not saying Simmons isn't great in so many ways he makes up for it, but it's an issue. And the FT thing).

Mitchell is fantastic too, but he has weaknesses he needs to work on. Now that he IS the focal point of the defense, his efficiency consistency is taking a hit and he needs to work on that. But he contributes in other categories all over as well...including Defensively.

I believe Wade is a perfect comparison for Mitchell. If that's what the Jazz have...I'm in heaven. Simmons...many compare him to Magic's game...I can see that. I don't see the LeBron ones totally, because LeBron's shot was quite a bit better. But Simmons is not a finished product and a hard worker so i can see him working on it. Excited to see how things go in the playoffs when pace slows and the half court becomes such a factor.

As far as head to head matchups...I don't care about those at all. Prime example, Deron Williams worked CP3 in most head to heads..we saw how that turned out in the end and how much meaning that has

[Litany]

It's remarkable how overrated and watered down the triple double stat has become.

Yep! Glad to see I'm not the only one thinking this.