How bad did LeBron damage his legacy?

BobbyBuckets · Post #241 » by **BobbyBuckets** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:26 am

I don't know about his legacy, but I do know he killed Pippen's future career as a talent scout.

That's not fair, Scottie knew what he was doing.

bruddahmanmatt · Post #242 » by **bruddahmanmatt** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:28 am

His mouth seems to be doing more damage to his legacy than his play at this point, and that's saying something given his garbage performance during the Finals this year.

Googjob · Post #243 » by **Googjob** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:37 am

He gave up the right to complain about the talent around him this Summer. He could have chose from just about any team he wanted to. He chose the situation in Miami. It's on him.

J the Drafter · Post #244 » by **J the Drafter** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 8:39 am

Googjob wrote:You can't seriously be making the "Lebron didn't have enough help" argument. He was playing with a top 5 player and future Hall of Famer in his prime. One of the best PFs in the league. The bench actually played well in the series.

The difference in MJ and Lebron is that in the Finals, MJ didn't play like crap.

Fine. Blame James for not having the skill to overcome the Mavericks' defense. Blame Spo for his offensive shortcomings. The only way LeBron can be judged fairly is when his career is through.

Post #245 » by **kingkirk** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:03 am

He lost all excuses thats for sure.

In Cleveland, its because he didnt have the teammates. Here, thats not the case. He crumbled. Simple as that.

Dupp · Post #246 » by **Dupp** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:17 am

This is the biggest tarnish to his legacy to date, he has no excuses and it is by far the worst performance of his career.

Post #247 » by **Tommy Udo 6** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:21 am

Edrees wrote:If he wins it next year everyone will forget, but he has no chance of GOAT anymore

No one will debate if LBJ > MJ

They should debate if LBJ > Pippen

BossHoggin · Post #248 » by **BossHoggin** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:24 am

Tommy Udo 6 wrote:
Edrees wrote:If he wins it next year everyone will forget, but he has no chance of GOAT anymore

No one will debate if LBJ > MJ

They should debate if LBJ > Pippen

If LBJ > Steve Kerr

kodo · Post #249 » by **kodo** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:26 am

Hon-essim wrote:The problem stems from Lebron not only having Wade but simply playing out of character. (Guy becomes a jump shooter at the most critical time in the playoffs)

You almost always have to become a jump shooter vs a zone defense. Trying to slash into a zone is going 1 on 5, which is just bad basketball. Although Lebron tried it a few times, probably to Carlisle's delight.

But it was more than his offense.

Like his pass that was thrown behind the intended man that Stevenson ended up stealing and turning into a wide, wide open 3. Lebron was actually closest to Stevenson, and instead Lebron backs away into the paint instead of closing out on Stevenson and contesting. Two heat players hit the ground diving for the ball, Stevenson dove for the ball and got it, Lebron was standing around looking for a rebound.

And on the bad pass by Lebron which Terry steals, Lebron doesn't run back on defense to correct his mistake. It was a fast break, but JUWON HOWARD and Haslem got back fast enough.

When Kobe or MJ make mistakes, they get pissed at themselves and turn up their defense into another gear and run back and usually make an amazing defensive play.

Lebron was -24 for the game, Wade was +3 and Bosh was +4. There was a lot more wrong with Lebron than just his offense, his overall effort and straight up bball IQ was terrible tonight.

hebrewhammer wrote:2) calls from Stern. Lebron went to the free throw line less in the entire game than in 1 clutch 4th quarter of any of Jordan's games.

Are you serious? Miami shot 33 FTs to Dallas' 18. Chalmers alone shot 9 FTs. Bosh got 7, Wade got 7, even Haslem got 4. Do not even try to blame this one on the refs.

GreenHat · Post #250 » by **GreenHat** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:38 am

By the end of his career it won't matter as much, people won't even remember it.

Kobe has had a couple of bad series before (including in the finals). Thats comparable to Lebron this series. He won after that and now no one really cares.

Even MJ lost a winnable series (against Orlando) even though he played really well. Thats comparable to Lebron in previous seasons. He won after that and now no one really cares.

Jerry West lost in all 7 of his first Finals SERIES (not games). Thats not even comparable to Lebron losing in his first two Finals. He won after that and now no one cares.

If Lebron wins a couple of titles in the future, only the haters will care that they lost this series and he played poorly.

Post #251 » by **kingkirk** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:41 am

GreenHat wrote:By the end of his career it won't matter as much, people won't even remember it.

Kobe has had a couple of bad series before (including in the finals). Thats comparable to Lebron this series. He won after that and now no one really cares.

Even MJ lost a winnable series (against Orlando) even though he played really well. Thats comparable to Lebron in previous seasons. He won after that and now no one really cares.

Jerry West lost in all 7 of his first Finals SERIES (not games). Thats not even comparable to Lebron losing in his first two Finals. He won after that and now no one cares.

If Lebron wins a couple of titles in the future, only the haters will care that they lost this series and he played poorly.

After all this media attention and hoopla, you think people will overlook it? No Chance.

Dupp · Post #252 » by **Dupp** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:42 am

At the end of the day we all have to go back to our crappy lives.

Biohazard · Post #253 » by **Biohazard** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:43 am

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A ... als_061311

Woj :rofl:

Apollo64 · Post #254 » by **Apollo64** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:48 am

Even he wins multiple championships in the future, everyone will remember and mention this series of his for decades to come. EVERYONE. This is the mother of all mental collapses (and it was his personal mental collapse for sure, not just the Mavs' defense), i don't think i've ever witnessed such a weird phenomenon in sports ever. It wasn't just one game, which can be justified easily, it was a string of games, one after another. And this was after him performing admirably against the Celtics and Bulls in crunch time.

Mind boggling for sure.

burgerplex · Post #255 » by **burgerplex** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 9:54 am

Woj bringing the 'pure' domination of Lebron and his entire circus act. The kid is just that: a kid. He's never matured into a man. Rather, he's perpetually stuck in the mindset of a 15 year old.

Lebron's words in the post-game press conference will haunt him until his career ends, and maybe even beyond. There's no tale of redemption that can wipe that stain away. Not even a championship. Oh, he'll win one of those, but he'll do it while still being the same douche he's always been. His talent will take him to the promise land, eventually, but he'll arrive to find it a lonely place.

ThirdMan · Post #256 » by **ThirdMan** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:20 am

BrooklynBulls wrote:I don't care about his age...nobody is forgetting that he lost a series, with home court, with a healthy team, with a far superior level of talent. FAR superior level of talent. And he didn't just lose, he was GARBAGE.

This IS a significant part of his legacy. It can still be a legacy of redemption, but no amount of winning makes this series just *poof* disappear.

+1

How can people really shrug this off? This is huge hit to his legacy. He better when a championship and a finals MVP and the sooner the better. You don't want this to be the topic of discussion for a few years.

Oh, and for all the people that keep saying he's 26... I don't think you realize how many miles are actually on those legs.

markjay · Post #257 » by **markjay** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:29 am

I just realized that Jason Terry--not even a starter and who played less than 75% of the minutes that LeBron played in the series--actually outscored LeBron in the series.

What's more, they played the same position and Terry got the lion's share of his points when LeBron was on the court.

Hon-essim · Post #258 » by **Hon-essim** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:31 am

kodo wrote:
Hon-essim wrote:The problem stems from Lebron not only having Wade but simply playing out of character. (Guy becomes a jump shooter at the most critical time in the playoffs)

You almost always have to become a jump shooter vs a zone defense. Trying to slash into a zone is going 1 on 5, which is just bad basketball. Although Lebron tried it a few times, probably to Carlisle's delight.

No. The way to break zone is to use something more complicated than a basic iso or a modified iso.

Being a jump shooter is what the zone WANTS a player to do not a way for the player to beat the zone.

A zone is basically a wider spaced Jordan Rules type of defense and it's constantly scrutinized as a defensive scheme because no true star like Jordan or Bird or even Penny/Drexler/Hill would have such an incomplete game that they can't murder the zone.

Only inconsistent stars like Kobe or Lebron or Wade with poorer fundamentals are primarily forcing the zone to be effective. This does not mean they are not the more talented of guards but they haven't shown quite the fundamentals to figure out the zone when they should have the talent to do so.

Like his pass that was thrown behind the intended man that Stevenson ended up stealing and turning into a wide, wide open 3. Lebron was actually closest to Stevenson, and instead Lebron backs away into the paint instead of closing out on Stevenson and contesting. Two heat players hit the ground diving for the ball, Stevenson dove for the ball and got it, Lebron was standing around looking for a rebound.

And on the bad pass by Lebron which Terry steals, Lebron doesn't run back on defense to correct his mistake. It was a fast break, but JUWON HOWARD and Haslem got back fast enough.

When Kobe or MJ make mistakes, they get pissed at themselves and turn up their defense into another gear and run back and usually make an amazing defensive play.

Not Kobe. Kobe's more like a "I'll get one good defensive showcase after you showed me up and then go back to what I was doing" type of player. Even for MJ this was a rarity. You would more often witness MJ being a true great defensive guard rather than see him be a revenge on defense type of player. Revenge D is more a small guy's game because they can often gamble on the steal or for a big man, it's a timely block later on in a game or a series but not immediately afterwards. SGs do sometimes go on these types of rage when they are against rivals but Kobe has often been more of a straight up fundamentals D player that plays lazy until he thinks he needs to be on his guard.

What Lebron lacks in that type of setting he easily makes up for with defenses against Rose. Mentally hasn't really been Lebron's weakness. Passiveness is and while the two could almost go hand in hand, Scottie Pippen one of the best defenders of his time had the same bad habit that was why he often gets the assignment of guarding a star straight up but it was guys like Rodman and Jordan who were the more active on the court.

Lebron was -24 for the game, Wade was +3 and Bosh was +4. There was a lot more wrong with Lebron than just his offense, his overall effort and straight up bball IQ was terrible tonight.

True but in this era, it's almost taken for granted that the stars are not as good at intangibles as the stars of the past. Wade is the clear exception and for this playoffs in one game Melo but these guys are also guys who pale in that area but are simply more talented than their peers. Offense has always been the heaviest barometer for the modern superstar to cement his legacy.

Just to put it into perspective, prime KG was just as much a facilitating beast as he was a scoring one but because he was one or two possession passive, he was always blamed for being too unselfish when his game is more selfish than someone like Duncan.

6_Rings · Post #259 » by **6_Rings** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:35 am

Legacy LOL. Legacy of hate and failure. He is not worthy of even tying Jordan's shoelaces. Id categorize him with AI, Marbury.

Hon-essim · Post #260 » by **Hon-essim** » Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:38 am

That's putting an insult to Ai and Marbury.

Marbury for all his weakness never became passive and did the reverse of what Lebron did.

AI similarly always put his heart on the line unless you took the minutes away from him.

Sure Lebron is more favorable as an overall non-team cancer but in terms of legacy category you never put Lebron along the category of guys full of passion and heart when they played the game.

At this point in his career, he can barely scrape the Steve Franchise category at least in terms of heart. Obviously talent is a different thing.