Better player next season: Simmons or Doncic?

[3toheadmelo]

Luka but he gotta improve his D

[Bob8]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

Luka’s 3 points % should be taken with a context. Only Harden has less assisted 3 pointers. They traded all other 4 starters, so Luka was playing mostly Iso’s after the trade. Put better players around him and his efficiency would skyrocketed.

About D. Rules has changed. Players are allowed to basically do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping the best. Luka is big and strong enough to guard 4th or 5th option of opponents, play good team defense and being very good rebounder for sure helps. Aren’t defensive rebounds part of D?

Simmons needs a jumper, sooner or later. To come there for someone, who is not shooting at all, is very, very difficult, if not impossible. That for sure won’t happen in one summer.

[stoo]

saying that Luka can't improve much is plain stupid

What's funny is that this exact argument has been hovering above Luka for a few 3 years now. Ever since he became an important player at Real Madrid at 18 years of age. And each and every season he came back better. People just never learn.

Also, those saying he's limited athletically only look at explosiveness like that's the only part of it. Let's disregard his body control and balance under contact, hist stopping ability, and speed in the open court. He can't jump high? Yeah, he must be a poor athlete. Smh.

Funny thing is people talking about Luka's weaknesses are at the same time saying he can't improve. Let's stop here for a moment...

.

.

.

Ok. So how about explosiveness. Luka said that is part of his game he works on and has to work on. It is easier for me to imagine him succeeding in that than failing. Now imagine more explosive Luka. Now imagine that it might not be the only thing he works on

Video that refers his athleticism. I would imagine he is Milos Teodosic after reading some of the posts over internet concerning his physicality

Watch on YouTube

[TheBallsDeeper]

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

Luka’s 3 points % should be taken with a context. Only Harden has less assisted 3 pointers. They traded all other 4 starters, so Luka was playing mostly Iso’s after the trade. Put better players around him and his efficiency would skyrocketed.

About D. Rules has changed. Players are allowed to basically do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping the best. Luka is big and strong enough to guard 4th or 5th option of opponents, play good team defense and being very good rebounder for sure helps. Aren’t defensive rebounds part of D?

Simmons needs a jumper, sooner or later. To come there for someone, who is not shooting at all, is very, very difficult, if not impossible. That for sure won’t happen in one summer.

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

[Oscar9992]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.0

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

Luka is mediocre NBA defender unlike Trae who is one of worst defenders in the league. He also creates shots for himself making the most unassisted 3 pointers after Harden last year. He also shoots 41% from open 3 pointers.

[Oscar9992]

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

Luka’s 3 points % should be taken with a context. Only Harden has less assisted 3 pointers. They traded all other 4 starters, so Luka was playing mostly Iso’s after the trade. Put better players around him and his efficiency would skyrocketed.

About D. Rules has changed. Players are allowed to basically do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping the best. Luka is big and strong enough to guard 4th or 5th option of opponents, play good team defense and being very good rebounder for sure helps. Aren’t defensive rebounds part of D?

Simmons needs a jumper, sooner or later. To come there for someone, who is not shooting at all, is very, very difficult, if not impossible. That for sure won’t happen in one summer.

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

To be fair non-existent jump shot is bigger flaw than mediocre defense in modern NBA. Howard, Shaq and Giannis are rare exceptions and Ben is nothing like them. And Giannis actually score 40-50 3 pointers every year.

[LKN]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

If you think last season tells us that Doncic is a poor shooter you need to get much better at watching basketball. Luka was actually a much better shooter than most were expecting and I'm much higher on his ability to become a plus level 3 point shooter than I was prior to the season.

FWIW, he was also much better at drawing fouls than I expected.

Again, he shot about 34% from 3 if we discount heaves/shots over 30 feet. Given his volume, age, % of shots assisted and lack of offensive help (esp in the 2nd half of the year) that's very impressive.

[Bob8]

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

Luka’s 3 points % should be taken with a context. Only Harden has less assisted 3 pointers. They traded all other 4 starters, so Luka was playing mostly Iso’s after the trade. Put better players around him and his efficiency would skyrocketed.

About D. Rules has changed. Players are allowed to basically do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping the best. Luka is big and strong enough to guard 4th or 5th option of opponents, play good team defense and being very good rebounder for sure helps. Aren’t defensive rebounds part of D?

Simmons needs a jumper, sooner or later. To come there for someone, who is not shooting at all, is very, very difficult, if not impossible. That for sure won’t happen in one summer.

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

Hi, Miss Jenner.

[LKN]

Luka’s 3 points % should be taken with a context. Only Harden has less assisted 3 pointers. They traded all other 4 starters, so Luka was playing mostly Iso’s after the trade. Put better players around him and his efficiency would skyrocketed.

About D. Rules has changed. Players are allowed to basically do whatever they want. Nobody is stopping the best. Luka is big and strong enough to guard 4th or 5th option of opponents, play good team defense and being very good rebounder for sure helps. Aren’t defensive rebounds part of D?

Simmons needs a jumper, sooner or later. To come there for someone, who is not shooting at all, is very, very difficult, if not impossible. That for sure won’t happen in one summer.

Wow................is this Luka's mums burner account?

To be fair non-existent jump shot is bigger flaw than mediocre defense in modern NBA. Howard, Shaq and Giannis are rare exceptions and Ben is nothing like them. And Giannis actually score 40-50 3 pointers every year.

More importantly - Giannis can actually hit FTs (granted he has consistency issues - see Raptors series - but he is generally over 70%).

Shaq and Wilt are the only superstars I can think of who dominated without being in the neighborhood of league average from the FT line... and they are obviously wild outliers when it comes to size/strength.

[LofJ]

Simmons: more efficient, better defensively, better rebounder, more assists on lower usage, better RPM, played for a winning team, and unlike last year was a clear positive in the playoffs

Anti-Simmons crowd: "can't shoot"

This, people are way, way, way too obsessed with jump shooting as the be all end all basketball skill. And everyone continues to ignore the importance of defense because it can't be easily quantified.

[gh123]

How is Luka bad on D? He's a bit below average according to most metrics, but he isnt bad, lots of wings are worse. He's strong and tall with sky high IQ, he'll be an above average defender for sure.

[nikster]

12 pages of calling Doncic a "more complete player." Very little mention of defense (half the game last i checked).

Hard to swallow pill which people once knew subconciously but forgot lately, defence can be theoretically half of the game, but it's not half as important as offense. Any team will take a superior offensive player to a superior defensive player, it's just how the game works, since scoring is harder than defending by default.

For example, you can have guys like Kemba Walker and Kyrie Irving that are really weak defenders as Max players, because their offence is a very needed commodity. On the other hand, you have guys like Tony Allen, Robertson, Covington, Smart that will never sniff a max contract, despite being elite defenders...

Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence than he helped them on defence. Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat and still have someone that the defence has to not only respect but gameplan against on the other side.

Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler... How the hell are you doubling Embiid? How the hell are you are loading the paint so guys can't drive? I would argue Doncic is superior playmaker to Simmons in half court offence, so that lineup would be completly unstoppable on that end.

Simmons is a very good player, but he has a fatal flaw which is unacceptable in todays NBA. And even if you believe Doncic can't improve (people have been saying that for 4 years now, and he made a mega-leap every single year), if he just gets in shape a bit more as people mentioned his stats will improve from an already insane rookie season with ease.

So unless Simmons shows up with a jumper next year, Doncic will definely be the better player.

I disagree with pretty much everything that you have written.

Offensive players get the max, that's the only bit I agree with. Why they get the max is a different story. In my opinion offensive players get more media exposure, sell more merchandise, they are more popular - basically they create more revenue, so they get paid well - but I don't think they help to win a championship more than a defensive player.

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

Two-way players - Kawhi, Durrant, Kobe, MJ, Lebon, Duncan, Shaq - They win championships.

Your say "Simmons was ok in the playoffs as a good defender to throw at guys, but he probably hurt the Sixers far more on the offence" Simmons averaged 14/7/6 in the 2019 playoffs, which is hardly an offensive liability, while also spending most of the time guarding the other teams best player. Also, you said "Swap him with Doncic these playoffs; while you can't put him to guard Giannis, you could put him on a lesser threat" - DeAngelo Russel would have knocked them out of the playoffs with JJ Reddick guarding him.

"Imagine a lineup of Doncic/Reddick/Embiid/Harris/Butler." - That backcourt would get destroyed on defense. Who does Donic and JJ guard in the Raptors series? Is Donic going to be guarding Kawhi? Or will Butler take him and Doncic guards Siakim? Maybe Doncic guards Lowrey and Reddick goes to Siakim??? There is no way that that line up makes it through to the finals. Doncics 32.7% three-point shooting is not going to suddenly make up for the lack of defense.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender. Hopefully, he becomes a better than the average shooter, but there is nothing to suggest that he will become elite. Hopefully he becomes an average defender, because physically there is no way he becomes elite.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

Absolutely hilarious that you call Harden not a winner but Gobert is. Houston has consistently been one of the best teams in the west, they've had multiple playoff runs. Only limited by having to face Goldenstate 4 teams in the playoffs.

Houston just beat Utah in 5 games in 2 consecutive seasons because Utah could not even manage 100 points a game in either series.

And the Series were people criticize Simmons offense was against the Raptors, with 11/7/5, while being terrible in the half court when he had the ball and killing spacing when he didnt.

[ballup]

How is Luka bad on D? He's a bit below average according to most metrics, but he isnt bad, lots of wings are worse. He's strong and tall with sky high IQ, he'll be an above average defender for sure.

The Mavs hide Luka on D. While he is attentive as a help defender, he is low energy so he isn't very helpful. Rotations are poor and kinda floats around and not in the good way.

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[gh123]

How is Luka bad on D? He's a bit below average according to most metrics, but he isnt bad, lots of wings are worse. He's strong and tall with sky high IQ, he'll be an above average defender for sure.

The Mavs hide Luka on D. While he is attentive as a help defender, he is low energy so he isn't very helpful. Rotations are poor and kinda floats around and not in the good way.

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Not really, I watched the games, he took an easier assignment some of the time and took harder ones in other games. You know that usually best offensive players don't defend the best offensive player of the opposing team? Were Minni hiding KG when they played Dallas? Were they hiding him when they played Spurs? You defend a 25ppg player - there's a good chance you'll get early fouls and get tired out before the 4th, that's why you never see Harden defending Durant 40mpg and so on.

[leolozon]

You have used Kyrie Irving and Kembla Walker as examples of why offense is higher rated - I would use those exact two players as why offense is overrated. I actually think you would struggle to find two players that are could be any more detrimental to your argument. Kyrie, Kemba, DeAnglo Russel, James Harden, Russell Westbrook are all max players, none of them play winning basketball. You switch Gobert with any one of those players and the team will be just as good.

Players like Gobert, Robert Covington are as valuable as the above offensive players - they are limited to one side of the ball, but impact the game just as much.

At this stage Doncic is a very good young player, but he has large flaws in his game - he is a below-average shooter and a below-average defender.

Simmons has a major flaw in his game, Doncic has a couple of large flaws. While both will be very good players, I think it's 50/50 as to who can overcome their floors and will be the better player.

1- Good luck convincing anyone that Covington isn't as valuable as Kyrie, Kemba, Harden....

A big man like Gobert could be as important as a great offensive player because he's the last line of defense and is maybe the best rim protector in the league. But, overall, defense is as much about team defense than individual defense.


2- Doncic isn't a below average shooter. He has a below average 3p%, but most bad shooters don't shoot 3s. Also, the problem isn't that he's a below average shooter, it's that the shots that he takes have an above average level of difficulty. Result is the same, but the conclusion isn't. Shot selection, having better players around and being in better shape (he shot worst in the second half of the season) is the solution, not "learning to shoot" (his shot actually looks good).

To prove my point?

The league average for catch and shoot is around 36%
Doncic shot 37.4% (but it only represents 25% of his 3PA)

The league average for corner 3 is .383 (21.4% of all 3PA)
Doncic average for corner 3 is .515 (only 6.4% of his 3PA)

Half court shots represent 1.7% of all 3PA.
Doncic half court shots represent 2.9% of his 3PA.


He also took a lot of shots very late in the shot clock (defined as less than 4 seconds left). Let's compare with the best shooter out there to see how tough those shots are :

Doncic very late 3P% : 23.9 and it represents 20.5% of his 3PA!
Curry very late 3P% : 20.5% and it represents 5.2% of his 3PA.

Some of it is a clock management problem (the Mavs had a slow offense no matter who was on the floor), but it doesn't make him a below average shooter.

Same for the FTs, it looks more like a fatigue problem, considering he was at league average in the 1st half of the season and shot 80% in his last year in Europe.

[ballup]

How is Luka bad on D? He's a bit below average according to most metrics, but he isnt bad, lots of wings are worse. He's strong and tall with sky high IQ, he'll be an above average defender for sure.

The Mavs hide Luka on D. While he is attentive as a help defender, he is low energy so he isn't very helpful. Rotations are poor and kinda floats around and not in the good way.

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Not really, I watched the games, he took an easier assignment some of the time and took harder ones in other games. You know that usually best offensive players don't defend the best offensive player of the opposing team? Were Minni hiding KG when they played Dallas? Were they hiding him when they played Spurs? You defend a 25ppg player - there's a good chance you'll get early fouls and get tired out before the 4th, that's why you never see Harden defending Durant 40mpg and so on.

We've all watched Luka and a lot of your statements are generally true about offensive star players. I'm not really talking about him guarding the Hardens and KDs (he did guard KD quite a bit, but I'm chalking that up to the Warriors pace not letting teams set up heir defenses) It's really difficult to use matchup data because how ambiguous Carlisle sets up his perimeter lineups. For example, convention would tell us that Matthews/Hardaway Jr. would be the 2 while Luka would be the 3, but a lot of the times it was listed as reverse. However, if you look at his defensive matchups guarded the spot up guy or the weaker offensive player a lot of the time. I'm also going by instances like seeing him assigned to Bjelica against the Kings or Morris/Smart against the Celtics.



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[I_Like_Dirt]

The defense is a big deal because Simmons is very, very good defensively. Beyond that, this focus on shooting is missing a few things. Simmons is also a better passer, a better finisher and is better at exploiting his handle to get inside. Simmons was significantly more efficient than Doncic on offense this season. Some of that was usage but if Doncic is ever held to a more rigid structure where he shares some of his offensive load that doesn't necessarily help his efficiency (maybe, maybe not). Doncic could also improve this season, but shooting alone isn't the only offensive skill.

The bottom line is that Doncic is probably a bit better than Simmons offensively but it's far closer than people think because Simmons is better at pretty much everything except for shooting but the gap is so massive at shooting that Doncic bridges it. Defensively, regardless of how good or bad a person thinks Doncic is, he's not nearly as good as Simmons and that's the difference.

[gh123]

The Mavs hide Luka on D. While he is attentive as a help defender, he is low energy so he isn't very helpful. Rotations are poor and kinda floats around and not in the good way.

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Not really, I watched the games, he took an easier assignment some of the time and took harder ones in other games. You know that usually best offensive players don't defend the best offensive player of the opposing team? Were Minni hiding KG when they played Dallas? Were they hiding him when they played Spurs? You defend a 25ppg player - there's a good chance you'll get early fouls and get tired out before the 4th, that's why you never see Harden defending Durant 40mpg and so on.

We've all watched Luka and a lot of your statements are generally true about offensive star players. I'm not really talking about him guarding the Hardens and KDs (he did guard KD quite a bit, but I'm chalking that up to the Warriors pace not letting teams set up heir defenses) It's really difficult to use matchup data because how ambiguous Carlisle sets up his perimeter lineups. For example, convention would tell us that Matthews/Hardaway Jr. would be the 2 while Luka would be the 3, but a lot of the times it was listed as reverse. However, if you look at his defensive matchups guarded the spot up guy or the weaker offensive player a lot of the time. I'm also going by instances like seeing him assigned to Bjelica against the Kings or Morris/Smart against the Celtics.



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At the end of the day I think he has all the tools to be a positive defender, not an elite one. Height, strength, ability to read plays. I'd gladly take a 25-8-8 closer with slightly above average defense. I'm extremely high on Luka and super low on Kp, probably lowest out of all Mavs' fans on RealGM lol.

[BR0D1E86]

You're baiting me.

So I'm going to zig, do you think the Bulls finish with a better record then Dallas this year? Whos young core would you rather have Chicago or Dallas?

Dallas to both. You have no idea how not high I am on the Bulls’ future with this group. The nba is all about superstars. The Bulls have none. Dallas might have one.

I think this core can compete and should make the playoffs this year. If they can’t then i think some changes need to be made, and only Mark is untouchable.

I think at its absolute peak it will be prohibitively expensive and compete for 5th seeds.

[ballup]

Not really, I watched the games, he took an easier assignment some of the time and took harder ones in other games. You know that usually best offensive players don't defend the best offensive player of the opposing team? Were Minni hiding KG when they played Dallas? Were they hiding him when they played Spurs? You defend a 25ppg player - there's a good chance you'll get early fouls and get tired out before the 4th, that's why you never see Harden defending Durant 40mpg and so on.

We've all watched Luka and a lot of your statements are generally true about offensive star players. I'm not really talking about him guarding the Hardens and KDs (he did guard KD quite a bit, but I'm chalking that up to the Warriors pace not letting teams set up heir defenses) It's really difficult to use matchup data because how ambiguous Carlisle sets up his perimeter lineups. For example, convention would tell us that Matthews/Hardaway Jr. would be the 2 while Luka would be the 3, but a lot of the times it was listed as reverse. However, if you look at his defensive matchups guarded the spot up guy or the weaker offensive player a lot of the time. I'm also going by instances like seeing him assigned to Bjelica against the Kings or Morris/Smart against the Celtics.



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At the end of the day I think he has all the tools to be a positive defender, not an elite one. Height, strength, ability to read plays. I'd gladly take a 25-8-8 closer with slightly above average defense. I'm extremely high on Luka and super low on Kp, probably lowest out of all Mavs' fans on RealGM lol.

I agree that Luka has a high ceiling. I believe better conditioning will lead to more finishing opportunities at the rim (although he has an extremely nice floater range touch) and lead to better defense.

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