Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

[trueballer7]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

I still think Jordan's the GOAT.
But he had plenty of help.
In hindsight, If you were to compare players Jordan played with to modern day players , you'd get something similar to this.

Jordan's Team // Lebron's Team (Pick one from the list)

Scottie Pippen // Luka, Dame, WB, Harden, AD, KD, Steph - (Top 5 - 10 Players)
Grant/Rodman // Draymond, Montresz - (Rebounder / Glue)
Toni Kukoc // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver, Redick - (Marksmen)
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)

Phil Jackson // Pops, Nurse, Spo, Stevens

I wonder what LeBron would of done if he had a squad like that.

Yeah,
Scottie Pippen in 1987, 7 ppg bench player
Grant in 1987, 7ppg bench player / Rodman in 1996, 34 years old SF turned undersized PF, couldnt score to save his life
Toni Kukoc in 1996 // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)
Phil Jackson in 1989 rookie coach, trying to implement a new system

If Lebron had a squad like he would have done the following,
Scottie Pippen - traded
Horace Grant - traded, Rodman - traded
Toni Kukoc -- spot up shooter
Paxson/Kerr, we're good
BJ/Harper --traded
Luc Longley // traded
Phil Jackson --shoved, shoulder bumped, fired, depression, panic attacks

[Godsplan]

Naw. MJ still the best to ever do it. Bron a close second though

[HEKTOR]

Lebron can't catch MJ in the GOAT debate unless he can go back in time.

[TheGOATRises007]

Why do you need approval from others?

If Lebron's your GOAT, he's your GOAT.

[ken6199]

Someone mentioned "turning around 3 different franchises".

Seems like we have different definition of turning around a franchise.

Damian Lillard, turned around a franchise. Giannis, turned around a franchise. Steph Curry, turned around a franchise. Now Doncic, is turning around a franchise.

[jerok]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

I still think Jordan's the GOAT.
But he had plenty of help.
In hindsight, If you were to compare players Jordan played with to modern day players , you'd get something similar to this.

Jordan's Team // Lebron's Team (Pick one from the list)

Scottie Pippen // Luka, Dame, WB, Harden, AD, KD, Steph - (Top 5 - 10 Players)
Grant/Rodman // Draymond, Montresz - (Rebounder / Glue)
Toni Kukoc // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver, Redick - (Marksmen)
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)

Phil Jackson // Pops, Nurse, Spo, Stevens

The vast majority of those players you just named were molded into the players they became in large part to Jordan himself. Obviously Phil Jackson was instrumental here as well (and this is one of the big actual advantages Jordan had over LeBron), but the entire "aura" of those Bulls teams revolved around the fact that no one wanted to win at any cost more than Jordan, and he PUNISHED his teammates until they grew into the players they became. Scottie Pippen has basically admitted that he wouldn't be "Scottie Pippen" without Jordan pressing him to develop.

This is vastly different from LeBron failing to do anything similar in Cleveland and then jumping ship to team up with other star players who were already established stars unreliant to anything LeBron did while playing with them.

I completely disagree.
We all forget LeBron took that sad Cavs team to the finals. That alone shows how much he can influence a team full of mischiefs.

With that Cavs team he had to compete with Celtics big 3.

Can you name a player from that Cavs lineup that was in same breath as Scottie Pippen?

I also remember MJ getting spanked by Boston and Detroit until Scottie became an allstar.

[Meeksology]

Lebron still tryin to catch up to Kobe let alone mj.

Sent from my SM-N950W using RealGM mobile app

Dude, just stop. Lebron is not the GOAT, but there is no question he is higher up the GOAT list than Kobe

U have ur opinion. I have mine.

Sent from my SM-N950W using RealGM mobile app

[LAKESHOW]

Let me ask all those MJ fans, what would Lebron have to do or accomplish to become GOAT?? Truthfully, I don't believe many of you can answer with complete deep honesty. Because MJ has a place of worship in your minds, that Lebron can never convince you otherwise. Therfore, you should say you believe what u believe and I believe what I believe. No debate needed.

[jerok]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

I still think Jordan's the GOAT.
But he had plenty of help.
In hindsight, If you were to compare players Jordan played with to modern day players , you'd get something similar to this.

Jordan's Team // Lebron's Team (Pick one from the list)

Scottie Pippen // Luka, Dame, WB, Harden, AD, KD, Steph - (Top 5 - 10 Players)
Grant/Rodman // Draymond, Montresz - (Rebounder / Glue)
Toni Kukoc // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver, Redick - (Marksmen)
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)

Phil Jackson // Pops, Nurse, Spo, Stevens

I wonder what LeBron would of done if he had a squad like that.

Yeah,
Scottie Pippen in 1987, 7 ppg bench player
Grant in 1987, 7ppg bench player / Rodman in 1996, 34 years old SF turned undersized PF, couldnt score to save his life
Toni Kukoc in 1996 // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)
Phil Jackson in 1989 rookie coach, trying to implement a new system

If Lebron had a squad like he would have done the following,
Scottie Pippen - traded
Horace Grant - traded, Rodman - traded
Toni Kukoc -- spot up shooter
Paxson/Kerr, we're good
BJ/Harper --traded
Luc Longley // traded
Phil Jackson --shoved, shoulder bumped, fired, depression, panic attacks

Y are we selecting pip and grant as rookies?
That's not the time when the bulls became champs.

Scottie is top 5 player year MJ left.

As for Rodman, do you not know what impact he had in those bulls run? I'm sure you do, I don't have to elaborate on that.

The rest of the post just pure hatred. Haha.
Since you downgrading all of MJs teammates.
You making it seem like he did everything. If that's the case, why was he getting spanked in the east before Scottie became an all star?

How come he couldn't take 1987 pip and grant to finals ?
LeBron took garbage cavs to finals.

MJ is Goat, but he had help. People forget this.

[SFour]

and if Lakers don't win the bubble title does that mean Lebron is permanently out of the GOAT conversation?...because he would be losing a guaranteed title right? that would be considered a choke

[JN61]

When he wins 5 he enters in the discussion with Kareem. Jordan still ahead.

[JN61]

Let me ask all those MJ fans, what would Lebron have to do or accomplish to become GOAT?? Truthfully, I don't believe many of you can answer with complete deep honesty. Because MJ has a place of worship in your minds, that Lebron can never convince you otherwise. Therfore, you should say you believe what u believe and I believe what I believe. No debate needed.

2 more championships, 2 more MVPs and be all time leading scorer.

[-MetA4-]

I completely disagree.
We all forget LeBron took that sad Cavs team to the finals. That alone shows how much he can influence a team full of mischiefs.

With that Cavs team he had to compete with Celtics big 3.

Can you name a player from that Cavs lineup that was in same breath as Scottie Pippen?

I also remember MJ getting spanked by Boston and Detroit until Scottie became an allstar.

MJ averaged 43.7ppg/6.3rpg/5.7apg in the series against the Celtics and 27.4ppg/8.8rpg/4.6apg against the Pistons. The team was spanked, but he was a one-man show on a DEVELOPING team. Those early "sad" Cavs teams that LeBron carried played in a horrendously weak Eastern conference, the comparison is completely pointless. You're talking about a Cavs team who's obstacle was Demar Derozan's Raptors. Early playoff LeBron never had to face anyone like the Celtics or Pistons in the Eastern conference.

Pippen, Grant, etc. weren't even in the league yet while Jordan was already dominating the Celtics by himself. They BECAME what they became under his tireless dictatorship.

[TheGOATRises007]

Let me ask all those MJ fans, what would Lebron have to do or accomplish to become GOAT?? Truthfully, I don't believe many of you can answer with complete deep honesty. Because MJ has a place of worship in your minds, that Lebron can never convince you otherwise. Therfore, you should say you believe what u believe and I believe what I believe. No debate needed.

Go back in time and amend for what happened in the 2011 finals.

[JoeyLightYears]

Pippen, Grant, etc. weren't even in the league yet while Jordan was already dominating the Celtics by himself. They BECAME what they became under his tireless dictatorship.

Dominique Williams did the same thing but he never got any great teammates and he didn't even make the NBA's first top-50 list.

[ken6199]

Let me ask all those MJ fans, what would Lebron have to do or accomplish to become GOAT?? Truthfully, I don't believe many of you can answer with complete deep honesty. Because MJ has a place of worship in your minds, that Lebron can never convince you otherwise. Therfore, you should say you believe what u believe and I believe what I believe. No debate needed.

Here is the answer you are looking for:

Players legacies are defined by their career as a whole. LeBron is in the twilight of his career so his legacy is pretty much shaped up. Based on his career trajectory and achievement at this point, the winning situations he either created by himself or others carved out for him, I say he will not surpass Jordan in normal circumstances. Weird things might happen that LeBron continues to play and win 5 more chips, but we'll discuss it when that happens.

It's a better question if you ask what Doncic needs to do to surpass Jordan - dude is 21 year old with a long career ahead of him. As to LeBron vs MJ, I think it's pretty much a done deal and that's just my honest opinion. I don't worship or hate either of them.

[ReddoverKobe]

Jordan also won three in the weakest era we have seen in 40 years. The mid to late 90's was garbage. No Euro players, high schoolers and expansion. Look at those sonics and Jazz rosters.

The weakest era accorsing to who? I could easily argue that the weakest era was 2005-2016.

You're both wrong. The clear weakest era is 68-75 when the talent was split between 2 leagues. Plenty of the top players of that era (Rick Barry, Connie Hawkins, Dr. J, Artis Gilmore, etc) weren't even in the NBA at the time.

I dont know a lot about the league pre 1980, that is why I used the 40 year thing.

[The Rodzilla]

Lebron can't catch MJ in the GOAT debate unless he can go back in time.

going back in time is so unrealistic, just say you are able to build a time machine

congratulations, now go back 5 months and the earth is on the other side of the sun and you have spawn into space

[X_O_Z]

Let me ask all those MJ fans, what would Lebron have to do or accomplish to become GOAT?? Truthfully, I don't believe many of you can answer with complete deep honesty. Because MJ has a place of worship in your minds, that Lebron can never convince you otherwise. Therfore, you should say you believe what u believe and I believe what I believe. No debate needed.

MJ was an athlete that the entire world of sports has never seen before. By his play alone shifted the landscape of superstardom. He is the pinnacle of what a success can be measured if you are an athlete. Not to mention his brand alone is a measurement of success. Lebron James will not be remembered by this, he will forever be remembered as one of the Greats that have played with some of the best players in the world. An athlete that can produce numbers, but did not translate to making players great.

This is where I am in disagreement with Lebron being the GOAT. He couldn't produce a Scottie Pippen Like MJ did. You see, MJ help shape Pippen into that super star when he was project to be borderline all star player. Lebron was willing to trade anyone and everyone to get the players he wanted so it will keep him playing at a High level to win. This isn't a bad strategy, but because of this is why I don't recognize this as a GOAT move, but rather an easy way out.


Why couldn't Lebron not make it to the playoffs last year? Did that made him not a GOAT player? Nope, but that sure tells me he needs all stars to be competitive or he will slack in areas of his game (defense) when he knows he has average team. MJ and despite of his early struggles never give up. He had always wanted to win and win he did in the middle and letter part of his career. Lebron is just a phenomenal athlete that you pair him with the right all star or superstar players, he will take you far because they know how to play and it would be easy for him instead of being difficult to train that Scottie Pippen.

Lastly, mentality to win is all MJ. That alone makes him greater than Lebron. That willingness to do what it takes to win for his team in what he is able to work with. Lebron willingness to win it all depends on the type of players he is playing with. That is the difference to me.

[jerok]

I completely disagree.
We all forget LeBron took that sad Cavs team to the finals. That alone shows how much he can influence a team full of mischiefs.

With that Cavs team he had to compete with Celtics big 3.

Can you name a player from that Cavs lineup that was in same breath as Scottie Pippen?

I also remember MJ getting spanked by Boston and Detroit until Scottie became an allstar.

MJ averaged 43.7ppg/6.3rpg/5.7apg in the series against the Celtics and 27.4ppg/8.8rpg/4.6apg against the Pistons. The team was spanked, but he was a one-man show on a DEVELOPING team. Those early "sad" Cavs teams that LeBron carried played in a horrendously weak Eastern conference, the comparison is completely pointless. You're talking about a Cavs team who's obstacle was Demar Derozan's Raptors. Early playoff LeBron never had to face anyone like the Celtics or Pistons in the Eastern conference.

Pippen, Grant, etc. weren't even in the league yet while Jordan was already dominating the Celtics by himself. They BECAME what they became under his tireless dictatorship.

22 year old Bron only beat pistons core team that beat shaq kobe lakers and took duncan, manu parker spurs to game 7 in nba finals.
Let's not forget facts

The narrative of Jordan facing stiffer competition in the east is laughable specially in the 90s, he had Pippen, who would be 2nd or 3rd best player in a series.

In the 80s he had to compete with boston big 3. And bad boy pistons and got spanked!
Then we glorify him cause he posts monster numbers, but he still lost.

On the other hand we vilify LeBron losing in NBA finals even tho he puts up monster numbers.

2015 with Delly as his Robin, monster finals. Lost. Dissed.
1986 MJ. Monster numbers, first round. Swept. Praised.