Better Player Right Now: Stephen Curry or Jokic

[Big J]

Curry has different limitations. But curry has a team around him that won't let offensive stars spend time working him. His teammates aren't getting blown by either. If you put curry on a worse defensive team, the results would make his defense look worse than it is too.

Curry was isolated on switches multiple times against Jayson Tatum on the finals and he more than held up. His teammates were not giving him help on those matchups either. The fact is it’s much easier to exploit a center with mobility issues than it is a strong quick guard like Curry.

Tatum was missing good looks...

It wasn’t just missed shots. Curry also stripped him multiple times and forced him into turnovers.

[jokeboy86]

Similar tier in terms of on court impact. Both MVP level personal impact. Curry with the better overall career and peak and Jokic not as involved in recruiting/retaining talent and creating his team's winning culture as much, which is an under rated aspect of winning.

Challenge Jokic to go get a Durant or similar to join up in Denver, and he could join the LBJ, Curry top Tier bus drivers. Its no accident Klay doesnt leave, Green doesnt leave, Looney gows into an effective big, Igguadala rejoins, CP2 comes back to play with broken elbow, etc.

Giannis never did this and still doesn't so would that aspect penalize him as well? Recruiting should not factor in any player's standing atm or in comparison to other players whatsoever cause its silly.

[dhsilv2]

Curry was isolated on switches multiple times against Jayson Tatum on the finals and he more than held up. His teammates were not giving him help on those matchups either. The fact is it’s much easier to exploit a center with mobility issues than it is a strong quick guard like Curry.

Tatum was missing good looks...

It wasn’t just missed shots. Curry also stripped him multiple times and forced him into turnovers.

Tatum all around played poorly man. That'd be like me pointing out Jokic's blocks and steals in the series.

[michaelm]

I think you ignore the fact that no center in the league can guard elite guards on the perimeter and continue to throw that out against Jokic, because facts don't matter to you.

If a team does not have perimeter defenders that can get through screens than they are going to struggle against the 3 point shooters. The Nuggets were top 5 in shots allowed at the rim, shooting percentage in the paint, turnovers created, passes deflected by a center, but nope the only thing that matters is that Jokic cannot contain Curry by himself, forget the fact that no center can do that, just like no PG can guard a elite Center in the paint.

Which is why a #1 guy as a center has yet to make an NBA finals since 2009, 14 years ago. Let alone win it.

Centers get used and abused and are unable to control games the way other positions can. Jokic is the closest outlier due to his insane playmaking/passing (and why it's insulting when people insinuate Embiid is better), but his limitations just like all other elite centers will always be there with him. Even when MPJ & Murray are back.

..

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

You can talk about the team all you want, but Timelord is a much better defender than Jokic. I'd say Al on the 5 was as well this postseason. Celtics have two guys when they play the 5 who can defend better, with Timelord being a significantly better defender even when he's playing injured.

You can talk about team defense and better guards are going to switch better on screens which is true, but a coach for the first time in NBA playoff history had the balls to let Curry beat his guys without trapping.. at least for the first 4 games. In those games their centers were still on an island. They still defended better late in the game than Jokic did.

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

I highly rate Jokic, and consider his successive regular season MVP awards to be well deserved.

But the idea that he is a better player than Curry because of what he might do if he had better team mates is completely nonsensical imo. Sure, he might be able to lead a title winning team with a better roster but until he does he hasn’t. Meanwhile, what do people want Curry to do to advance his case apart from being Western Conference play-offs MVP and unanimous FMVP on the title winning team ?.

[Big J]

Tatum was missing good looks...

It wasn’t just missed shots. Curry also stripped him multiple times and forced him into turnovers.

Tatum all around played poorly man. That'd be like me pointing out Jokic's blocks and steals in the series.

It’s actually not really the same at all. Jokic wasn’t blocking or stealing anything in isolation situations. All of his blocks and steals in that series were as a help defender. It’s completely different.

[michaelm]

but I do think it quite impudent of those who are using him as a screen to take shots at Curry.

If Curry was not the best player in the league at the start of the 2017 season there is no way Jokic is now. If all those voting for Jokic in the poll didn't have Curry as the best player then, then they are being hypocrites.

We don’t always agree but that is the basis of at least some of the posts on this thread. At least one poster didn’t like it when it was pointed out that the logical corollary of Jokic being better than Curry because of successive MVP awards despite the play-offs was Curry being better than LeBron after the 2016 play-offs.

[Impuniti]

I think you ignore the fact that no center in the league can guard elite guards on the perimeter and continue to throw that out against Jokic, because facts don't matter to you.

If a team does not have perimeter defenders that can get through screens than they are going to struggle against the 3 point shooters. The Nuggets were top 5 in shots allowed at the rim, shooting percentage in the paint, turnovers created, passes deflected by a center, but nope the only thing that matters is that Jokic cannot contain Curry by himself, forget the fact that no center can do that, just like no PG can guard a elite Center in the paint.

Which is why a #1 guy as a center has yet to make an NBA finals since 2009, 14 years ago. Let alone win it.

Centers get used and abused and are unable to control games the way other positions can. Jokic is the closest outlier due to his insane playmaking/passing (and why it's insulting when people insinuate Embiid is better), but his limitations just like all other elite centers will always be there with him. Even when MPJ & Murray are back.

..

The celtics had a complete TEAM defense. The nuggets didn't. Big men's issues get compounded when they don't have teammates. Give Jokic guys like Smart and his defense will look significantly better. But that wasn't the case with his team. You can't isolate the play on defense like this.

You can talk about the team all you want, but Timelord is a much better defender than Jokic. I'd say Al on the 5 was as well this postseason. Celtics have two guys when they play the 5 who can defend better, with Timelord being a significantly better defender even when he's playing injured.

You can talk about team defense and better guards are going to switch better on screens which is true, but a coach for the first time in NBA playoff history had the balls to let Curry beat his guys without trapping.. at least for the first 4 games. In those games their centers were still on an island. They still defended better late in the game than Jokic did.

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

I never said he can't offset it to a degree. Jokic offensively is an absolute **** wizard and said I said before, he's so good that it's insulting that people claim Embiid is better. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is around the level that the top 3-4 other players in the league have. As a center however, your defense will always keep you down. That's why I harp on the fact that no team has made a finals in space and pace era with a #1 guy being a center.

However if I had to be a betting man, I'd put money on Joker on being the first one.

[dhsilv2]

Which is why a #1 guy as a center has yet to make an NBA finals since 2009, 14 years ago. Let alone win it.

Centers get used and abused and are unable to control games the way other positions can. Jokic is the closest outlier due to his insane playmaking/passing (and why it's insulting when people insinuate Embiid is better), but his limitations just like all other elite centers will always be there with him. Even when MPJ & Murray are back.


You can talk about the team all you want, but Timelord is a much better defender than Jokic. I'd say Al on the 5 was as well this postseason. Celtics have two guys when they play the 5 who can defend better, with Timelord being a significantly better defender even when he's playing injured.

You can talk about team defense and better guards are going to switch better on screens which is true, but a coach for the first time in NBA playoff history had the balls to let Curry beat his guys without trapping.. at least for the first 4 games. In those games their centers were still on an island. They still defended better late in the game than Jokic did.

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

I highly rate Jokic, and consider his successive regular season MVP awards to be well deserved.

But the idea that he is a better player than Curry because of what he might do if he had better team mates is completely nonsensical imo. Sure, he might be able to lead a title winning team with a better roster but until he does he hasn’t. Meanwhile, what do people want Curry to do to advance his case apart from being Western Conference play-offs MVP and unanimous FMVP on the title winning team ?.

At the end of the day I look at how you play. I don't care about success you can't control. I think jokic is right now better, and Curry would have to play better to be ranked ahead of Jokic. All basketball analysis falls into hypothetical to some degree. Otherwise what are we just going to say the best player on the best team is the best player? That's be insane.

[dhsilv2]

It wasn’t just missed shots. Curry also stripped him multiple times and forced him into turnovers.

Tatum all around played poorly man. That'd be like me pointing out Jokic's blocks and steals in the series.

It’s actually not really the same at all. Jokic wasn’t blocking or stealing anything in isolation situations. All of his blocks and steals in that series were as a help defender. It’s completely different.

I'm lost. Help defense is the most valuable defense....and isolation the least.

[dhsilv2]

Which is why a #1 guy as a center has yet to make an NBA finals since 2009, 14 years ago. Let alone win it.

Centers get used and abused and are unable to control games the way other positions can. Jokic is the closest outlier due to his insane playmaking/passing (and why it's insulting when people insinuate Embiid is better), but his limitations just like all other elite centers will always be there with him. Even when MPJ & Murray are back.


You can talk about the team all you want, but Timelord is a much better defender than Jokic. I'd say Al on the 5 was as well this postseason. Celtics have two guys when they play the 5 who can defend better, with Timelord being a significantly better defender even when he's playing injured.

You can talk about team defense and better guards are going to switch better on screens which is true, but a coach for the first time in NBA playoff history had the balls to let Curry beat his guys without trapping.. at least for the first 4 games. In those games their centers were still on an island. They still defended better late in the game than Jokic did.

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

I never said he can't offset it to a degree. Jokic offensively is an absolute **** wizard and said I said before, he's so good that it's insulting that people claim Embiid is better. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is around the level that the top 3-4 other players in the league have. As a center however, your defense will always keep you down. That's why I harp on the fact that no team has made a finals in space and pace era with a #1 guy being a center.

However if I had to be a betting man, I'd put money on Joker on being the first one.

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

[Big J]

Nobody is claiming Jokic is better than Al or Timelord. But Jokic ran an offense SIGNIFICANTLY better than boston did with no real help. The defensive issues if he had proper teammates would reduce this problem drastically. He'd still be worse defensively, but he can offset it with his offense.

I never said he can't offset it to a degree. Jokic offensively is an absolute **** wizard and said I said before, he's so good that it's insulting that people claim Embiid is better. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is around the level that the top 3-4 other players in the league have. As a center however, your defense will always keep you down. That's why I harp on the fact that no team has made a finals in space and pace era with a #1 guy being a center.

However if I had to be a betting man, I'd put money on Joker on being the first one.

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

The only way to stop a switch against Curry is to trap him with 2 guys. Trying to fight over screens and having your big man drop will get 3s rained on your head all game. Boston tried that also.

The only way that you can possibly slow him down is to have 5 guys on the floor who can switch onto him and do a decent job of staying in front of him.

[dhsilv2]

I never said he can't offset it to a degree. Jokic offensively is an absolute **** wizard and said I said before, he's so good that it's insulting that people claim Embiid is better. His ability to elevate his teammate's games is around the level that the top 3-4 other players in the league have. As a center however, your defense will always keep you down. That's why I harp on the fact that no team has made a finals in space and pace era with a #1 guy being a center.

However if I had to be a betting man, I'd put money on Joker on being the first one.

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

The only way to stop a switch against Curry is to trap him with 2 guys. Trying to fight over screens and having your big man drop will get 3s rained on your head all game. Boston tried that also.

Boston held the warriors to 110.8 offensive rating. Their defense did the job exceptionally well...

[Big J]

I never said you did. My point has been and is that we're over stating how poor Jokic's defense was due to his teammates. Not saying he was an elite defender nor am I saying it isn't an area that can be exploited in the playoffs. People however are turning this into meme level bad defense vs the reality...Jokic can't guard Curry in isolation like 99.9% of players in the league and his team needs to do a better job of protecting that and making it harder to get those switches.

The only way to stop a switch against Curry is to trap him with 2 guys. Trying to fight over screens and having your big man drop will get 3s rained on your head all game. Boston tried that also.

Boston held the warriors to 110.8 offensive rating. Their defense did the job exceptionally well...

Yea they did a good job against guys not named Steph.

[shoresy69]

As incredible as Jokic is, it's crazy to me that Curry is losing this poll. An all-time great who has repeatedly come up big in deep playoff runs, who just this month absolutely torched the best defense in the league (which allegedly had all the tools to slow him down) on his way to another championship. I'm not an anti-numbers guy but I think people are missing the forest for the trees in this comparison.

[dhsilv2]

The only way to stop a switch against Curry is to trap him with 2 guys. Trying to fight over screens and having your big man drop will get 3s rained on your head all game. Boston tried that also.

Boston held the warriors to 110.8 offensive rating. Their defense did the job exceptionally well...

Yea they did a good job against guys not named Steph.

I don't get you on this one man. The celtic's defense was good enough for them to win the title this year. They did their job just fine on the warriors. Their offense cost them that series. If Denver played even 3-4 points worse on defense they'd be well set to upset the warriors with a health team. Heck they might even be able to go 5-6 worse.

[dhsilv2]

As incredible as Jokic is, it's crazy to me that Curry is losing this poll. An all-time great who repeatedly has come up big in deep playoff runs, who just this month absolutely torched the best defense in the league (who allegedly had all the tools to slow him down) on his way to another championship. I'm not an anti-numbers guy but I think people are missing the forest for the trees in this comparison.

Does right now mean 2021-22 season or does it mean 2022-23 season that's coming up? As the song goes, yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

[Big J]

As incredible as Jokic is, it's crazy to me that Curry is losing this poll. An all-time great who repeatedly has come up big in deep playoff runs, who just this month absolutely torched the best defense in the league (who allegedly had all the tools to slow him down) on his way to another championship. I'm not an anti-numbers guy but I think people are missing the forest for the trees in this comparison.

Does right now mean 2021-22 season or does it mean 2022-23 season that's coming up? As the song goes, yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

The finals happened literally a few weeks ago…

The last image we have of Jokic is of him getting dusted repeatedly by Curry. It’s silly that this is even a debate.

[shoresy69]

As incredible as Jokic is, it's crazy to me that Curry is losing this poll. An all-time great who repeatedly has come up big in deep playoff runs, who just this month absolutely torched the best defense in the league (who allegedly had all the tools to slow him down) on his way to another championship. I'm not an anti-numbers guy but I think people are missing the forest for the trees in this comparison.

Does right now mean 2021-22 season or does it mean 2022-23 season that's coming up? As the song goes, yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

My answer is Curry for either season. If anything next season will be much more favorable to Curry unless we're predicting him to slump that hard again mid-season.

[dhsilv2]

As incredible as Jokic is, it's crazy to me that Curry is losing this poll. An all-time great who repeatedly has come up big in deep playoff runs, who just this month absolutely torched the best defense in the league (who allegedly had all the tools to slow him down) on his way to another championship. I'm not an anti-numbers guy but I think people are missing the forest for the trees in this comparison.

Does right now mean 2021-22 season or does it mean 2022-23 season that's coming up? As the song goes, yesterday's gone, yesterday's gone.

The finals happened literally a few weeks ago…

The last image we have of Jokic is of him getting dusted repeatedly by Curry. It’s silly that this is even a debate.

I saw Jokic putting in a super human effort and nearly took the eventual champs to 6 games on a team that had no business making the playoffs in the first place. I certainly hope you didn't change your view of Curry because of the playoffs this year!

[Impuniti]

Boston held the warriors to 110.8 offensive rating. Their defense did the job exceptionally well...

Yea they did a good job against guys not named Steph.

I don't get you on this one man. The celtic's defense was good enough for them to win the title this year. They did their job just fine on the warriors. Their offense cost them that series. If Denver played even 3-4 points worse on defense they'd be well set to upset the warriors with a health team. Heck they might even be able to go 5-6 worse.

Warriors had a 116 oRTG with Curry and and 88 without him I think by game 5, which is league best with him on and a G-league level offense in the NBA with him off. They did a terrible job defending Curry.

And you stop with these awful what if scenarios, you're not writing Marvel fan fiction. But I guess that's the only way to keep putting Joker on a pedestal.