NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (pt 2)

[Statlanta]

Durant definitely deserves to be penalized in some way for the Nets being dysfunctional this season. Not only did he cost the NBA money with his summer trade demand(schedule makers limiting Brooklyn on-screen appearances) but he contributed to the media circus with his quotes and lack of accountability.

He's going to need to clearly set himself apart from the pack to lead the MVP discussion

[Statlanta]

People might be rightly impressed by Jokic's shooting, but we have to take in account 2 things,

It's not the same averaging 32+ points or 25 points and second is % of assisted shots. Jokic's 2-pts shots are assisted 60% and his 3-pts 87%. Luka for example has assisted only 9% of his 2-pts and 18% of his 3-pts.

That is a completely fair part especially since he turns away from scoring opportunities unlike most of the league's top scorers but one can point out a similar phenomenon with Doncic's passing. How impressive are those assist numbers with his usage?

Thinking Basketball was raving about his passing as if looking off 1 three point shooter for another in 5 out spacing is impressive.

[Bob8]

People might be rightly impressed by Jokic's shooting, but we have to take in account 2 things,

It's not the same averaging 32+ points or 25 points and second is % of assisted shots. Jokic's 2-pts shots are assisted 60% and his 3-pts 87%. Luka for example has assisted only 9% of his 2-pts and 18% of his 3-pts.

Eh, Jokic is a big man

when he seals a small defender in position down low etc. obviously he need to recieve the ball in such position

Embiid for instance is assisted on 56% of his FG and 89% of his 3's

even Zion is assisted on 50% of his FG and 83% of his 3's

When Jokic or Embiid get the ball in a position to score, they make their move off the catch (it might involve putting the ball on the floor or not)

Luka handles and dribbles the ball way more than those big men
even off the catch he will usually dribble for a couple of secs into his spot

ur stats are just an observation of a natural phenomenon known as "height matters" in basketball

edit: as for the 25+ ppg issuee meh
Jokic averaged 30 last season when he needed to with similar efficiency
multiple 30+ playoff games he demonstrated the same ability

he could score 30+ easily if he wanted to and he doesn't want to
he'll have a couple less assists a game a few more buckets

big whoop

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there. On the other hand he's doing totally unprecedented things as playmaking C.

He was averaging 27 points with lower FG% last year. Something is scoring single games with great efficiency and something totally different having that efficiency for the entire season. Shooting less and less difficult shots will always bring you better efficiency in a long run.

Luka has far the lowest % of assisted shots and has the biggest numbers in isolation.

[eyeatoma]

It was widely considered that Murray was the star of that series. Not Jokic.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jamal-murray-bubble-stats

I'm not denying that Murray was the better Player overall throughout the Series.

But thats not what you said.

You said Murray carried Jokic to the WCF, which is not true.

Both carried the Nuggets to the WCF, with Jokic putting up the best performances in the decisive games.

I mean Murray's performances are what got them to a game 7. He did it for 3 games in a row. 50, 42, 50.

I'd say those were more necessary. Jokic was fine in those games but nothing spectacular. He had 29, 31 and 22 points respectively, without even a double double. Although he had 9 assists in game 6.

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[Bob8]

People might be rightly impressed by Jokic's shooting, but we have to take in account 2 things,

It's not the same averaging 32+ points or 25 points and second is % of assisted shots. Jokic's 2-pts shots are assisted 60% and his 3-pts 87%. Luka for example has assisted only 9% of his 2-pts and 18% of his 3-pts.

That is a completely fair part especially since he turns away from scoring opportunities unlike most of the league's top scorers but one can point out a similar phenomenon with Doncic's passing. How impressive are those assist numbers with his usage?

Thinking Basketball was raving about his passing as if looking off 1 three point shooter for another in 5 out spacing is impressive.

You're missing 1 thing about his passing,

He's the most double teamed player in Nba, difficult to get direct assist from a double team, but he has a tone of those hockey assists. Just look at Mavs' last game, why do you think Luka had "only" 9 assists and Wood impressive 7 assists?

[_NoMas]

The 50 point games he traded with Mitchell in the playoffs to get the team to the WCF.. without those two Jordan like perfoemances, Nuggets wouldn't have sniffed the WCF during the bubble playoffs.

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Murray had one 50 Point game against Utah and one 41 Point game.

And in Game 7 Jokic killed the Series with 30 Points 4 Ast and 14 Rebounds.

In the last two Games against the Clippers Jokic had 34/14/7 and and a 16/22/13 TD in the Final Game to seal the deal.

So I don't quite understand how you get that Murray carried him to the WCF.

It was widely considered that Murray was the star of that series. Not Jokic.

And no, you are wrong. Murray had 50 points twice against the Jazz, as well as another 40 points against the Jazz.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jamal-murray-bubble-stats

So he was the star of the first round is what you've shown That’s slightly different to ‘Murray carried him to the WCF’. In the second round, you know, the round before the WCF, Jokic scored more points, more rebounds and more assists then Murray in less minutes. But sure, carried to the WCFs…

[Mick Dundee]

Murray's performances are what got them to a game 7.

And you are right ... But you refuse to add, that he did it along with Jokics outstanding performances.

What you are trying to imply that Murray carried the Nuggets alone into the WCF through a 14 Games Stretch,
while Jokic was just an inactive Bystander.

In the Series against Utah

Jokic averaged 26 / 8 / 5
and
Murray averaged 31 / 5 / 6

In the Series against the Clippers

Jokic averaged 24 / 13 / 7
and
Murray averaged 22 / 4 / 6

Across both Series ...

Jokic avg 25 / 10 / 6
Murray avg 26 / 4 / 6


I understand that Jokic is revered more than Zeus of Olympus and even the Pope himself on not just this Board,
but on Social Media as well and it can be frustrating for Fans of other Teams/Players.

Especially for 6er Fans, whom I like the most of all the NBA Fans because they are uncompromising and ready to
throw insults and, if need be, even fists at Refs and opposing Players.

I like that.

But trying to diminish Jokics Performance throughout the 2020 Bubble, while the Numbers speak the usual Languague in his favor
is just not the way to shine a better light on Embiids and the 76ers Lack of Playoff Success.

[BelgradeNugget]

People might be rightly impressed by Jokic's shooting, but we have to take in account 2 things,

It's not the same averaging 32+ points or 25 points and second is % of assisted shots. Jokic's 2-pts shots are assisted 60% and his 3-pts 87%. Luka for example has assisted only 9% of his 2-pts and 18% of his 3-pts.

Yeah, as some people already said, for Luka to make next step he should develop off the ball game.

[Bob8]

People might be rightly impressed by Jokic's shooting, but we have to take in account 2 things,

It's not the same averaging 32+ points or 25 points and second is % of assisted shots. Jokic's 2-pts shots are assisted 60% and his 3-pts 87%. Luka for example has assisted only 9% of his 2-pts and 18% of his 3-pts.

Yeah, as some people already said, for Luka to make next step he should develop off the ball game.

You might look at the Mavs roster and tell me, who will be on ball in that case?

And secondly, his TS% is very good for a big volume Pg, he should be better in FT thought. And maybe even more importantly, all those double teams on him opens game for everyone else. Problem is that vast majority of them don't have any kind of ball handling and passing abilities. That's why missing Brunson is so crucial for Mavs.

Give Luka players like Jrue and Lopez and Mavs will be contenders easily.

I would gladly take Murray and Gordon for anyone from the Mavs too.

[BelgradeNugget]

The 50 point games he traded with Mitchell in the playoffs to get the team to the WCF.. without those two Jordan like perfoemances, Nuggets wouldn't have sniffed the WCF during the bubble playoffs.

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Murray had one 50 Point game against Utah and one 41 Point game.

And in Game 7 Jokic killed the Series with 30 Points 4 Ast and 14 Rebounds.

In the last two Games against the Clippers Jokic had 34/14/7 and and a 16/22/13 TD in the Final Game to seal the deal.

So I don't quite understand how you get that Murray carried him to the WCF.

It was widely considered that Murray was the star of that series. Not Jokic.

And no, you are wrong. Murray had 50 points twice against the Jazz, as well as another 40 points against the Jazz.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jamal-murray-bubble-stats

Murray was great in Utah series and carried Jokic to 2nd round, Jokic didn't do anything special in that series except...

averaged 26.3/8.1/5.4 on 52/49/85 shooting splits. 49% from 3 on 6.6 FGA was important to keep Gobert out of paint so Nuggets guards could penetrate and score at the rim without help defense. In Nuggets game 7 win, Jazz as a team shot 38%, Nuggets outside of Jokic scored 50pts on 32%, Jokic scored 30pts at 53% . It was 38% of Nuggets points. Oh, yes he also scored series winning shot.

In second round against LA Clippers Jokic led both teams in pts, rebs, ast, blk, fg%.

So, again what were you talking about?

[BelgradeNugget]

People might be rightly impressed by Jokic's shooting, but we have to take in account 2 things,

It's not the same averaging 32+ points or 25 points and second is % of assisted shots. Jokic's 2-pts shots are assisted 60% and his 3-pts 87%. Luka for example has assisted only 9% of his 2-pts and 18% of his 3-pts.

Yeah, as some people already said, for Luka to make next step he should develop off the ball game.

You might look at the Mavs roster and tell me, who will be on ball in that case?

And secondly, his TS% is very good for a big volume Pg, he should be better in FT thought. And maybe even more importantly, all those double teams on him opens game for everyone else. Problem is that vast majority don't have any kind of ball handling and passing abilities. That's why missing Brunson is so crucial for Mavs.

Give Luka players like Jrue and Lopez and Mavs will be contenders easily.

I would gladly change Murray and Gordon for anyone from the Mavs too.

I'm not talking about somebody dribbling for 20 seconds with Luka in corner waiting for someone to create for him. Watch more Nuggets games, you will se what I'm talking about. Jokic is great at cutting and moving without ball, now. They will miss him sometimes, make TO trying to pass him the ball, but often when he gets it he shots it and hits.
These assisted stats for Jokic doesn't mean somebody is creating for him. If you take Jokic and Luka off Nuggets and Dallas the next best creator on those teams is Dinwiddie. BTW how many assisted points Luka had last year when Brunson was there?

[Exp0sed]

People should focus on his playmaking, not scoring. There's where he makes the difference and is elite of the elite and why he deserves being MVP.

this is hitting the nail on the head imo, great post

MVP's usually go to great players on very good to great teams (usually the latter)
it's much easy to have a season worthy of MVP (from record, dominance perspective) when your MVP candidate \ superstar
is great to all time great in playmaking

in recent years, Giannis has been the expection but even he averges 5+ APG and creates

has there been MVP's who weren't elite at playmaking?
sure, but not many

some of those were very dominant defensively (Robinson, Duncan etc.) others fit different bills but usually the best team in the league has a great playmaker leading it

because basketball isn't played 1 on 5 and the ability to make plays for others (less talented and gifted than yourself) is the type of Bball that leads most easily to success and translates to actual wins

it's not that you can't win any other way, you most surely can and there are plenty of examples (most recently Giannis and Durant even tho both averaged over 5 APG and made plays in other ways as well, by their gravity and attracting double teams even if the ball doesn't go to them but the offense finds the open man etc. ) but for the most part - that has been the blueprint

just of recent MVP winners, Jokic, Curry, LBJ, Harden (even WB tho that MVP was very iffy obviousy to say the least)

all these guys are scorers as well (even some of the best scorers) but it's easier to actually win a championhsip and not just compete for one - when you couple elite scoring with elite playmaking and there are more elite scorers than there are elite playmakers in any given time in the league

so imo what u said is exactly what seperates Jokic from the rest that is indeed why he's been such a difference maker, as evidenced by his consistently other worldly impact stats (of al shapes and kinds )

the nay sayers will say the usual about team success both in the rs and in the Playoffs but i think it's pretty obvious to any non biased fan that he's made the best from the hand he was dealt with roster wise, in every season in his career and that during that career (including rn) - that roster has been extremely flawed and not up to par with the rosters of other perennial MVP candidates (past or present)

his advocates (and me among them) would also argue that there isn't another current active \ in his prime "superstar" that would have done better with those rosters, not better in a significant way anyways

[eyeatoma]

Murray's performances are what got them to a game 7.

And you are right ... But you refuse to add, that he did it along with Jokics outstanding performances.

What you are trying to imply that Murray carried the Nuggets alone into the WCF through a 14 Games Stretch,
while Jokic was just an inactive Bystander.

In the Series against Utah

Jokic averaged 26 / 8 / 5
and
Murray averaged 31 / 5 / 6

In the Series against the Clippers

Jokic averaged 24 / 13 / 7
and
Murray averaged 22 / 4 / 6

Across both Series ...

Jokic avg 25 / 10 / 6
Murray avg 26 / 4 / 6


I understand that Jokic is revered more than Zeus of Olympus and even the Pope himself on not just this Board,
but on Social Media as well and it can be frustrating for Fans of other Teams/Players.

Especially for 6er Fans, whom I like the most of all the NBA Fans because they are uncompromising and ready to
throw insults and, if need be, even fists at Refs and opposing Players.

I like that.

But trying to diminish Jokics Performance throughout the 2020 Bubble, while the Numbers speak the usual Languague in his favor
is just not the way to shine a better light on Embiids and the 76ers Lack of Playoff Success.

Sure he wasn't carried, but without Murray they're not making the WCF. Jokic played well, but did not have career defining moments in the bubble. People thought Murray broke out and was the next star gaurd with his performance.

I just think it's amusing that people like to compare Embiid to Jokic and bring up playoff record when Embiid had his sidekick shrivel up in the Atlanta series when they had the series in the bag. Choking the series away. Dont even get my started with Doc.

He also made game 7 of the ecsf with Kawhi hitting a miracle shot. Last year he was hobbled with two freak injuries yet played through it like an iron man with people concerned about whether he was going to do permanent damage to himself.

It's far closer in the playoffs then people think.

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[eyeatoma]

Murray had one 50 Point game against Utah and one 41 Point game.

And in Game 7 Jokic killed the Series with 30 Points 4 Ast and 14 Rebounds.

In the last two Games against the Clippers Jokic had 34/14/7 and and a 16/22/13 TD in the Final Game to seal the deal.

So I don't quite understand how you get that Murray carried him to the WCF.

It was widely considered that Murray was the star of that series. Not Jokic.

And no, you are wrong. Murray had 50 points twice against the Jazz, as well as another 40 points against the Jazz.

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/jamal-murray-bubble-stats

Murray was great in Utah series and carried Jokic to 2nd round, Jokic didn't do anything special in that series except...

averaged 26.3/8.1/5.4 on 52/49/85 shooting splits. 49% from 3 on 6.6 FGA was important to keep Gobert out of paint so Nuggets guards could penetrate and score at the rim without help defense. In Nuggets game 7 win, Jazz as a team shot 38%, Nuggets outside of Jokic scored 50pts on 32%, Jokic scored 30pts at 53% . It was 38% of Nuggets points. Oh, yes he also scored series winning shot.

In second round against LA Clippers Jokic led both teams in pts, rebs, ast, blk, fg%.

So, again what were you talking about?

26/8/5 are all star numbers. They pale in comparison to what he has done in the regular season the last three years.

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[BelgradeNugget]

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there. On the other hand he's doing totally unprecedented things as playmaking C.

He was averaging 27 points with lower FG% last year. Something is scoring single games with great efficiency and something totally different having that efficiency for the entire season. Shooting less and less difficult shots will always bring you better efficiency in a long run.

Luka has far the lowest % of assisted shots and has the biggest numbers in isolation.

C are on top of that list because 90% of them shoots only at the rim.
Jokic is historically great from all areas of the flor, much better than Luka.
Jokic is taking less difficult shots because he is creating much better shots for himself and his teammates, but also great in shots with few sec on shot-clock, highly contested shots...(you can find stats on nba.com)
He uses his Sombor shufle only when need it but hits more than 50% on it.

[Archx]

Jokic is taking less difficult shots because he is creating much better shots for himself and his teammates, but also great in shots with few sec on shot-clock, highly contested shots...(you can find stats on nba.com)

You sure about that? I mean there is a huge gap between the nr1 and 2 spot. Also this isn't a fluke because he ranked nr1 last year aswell. So maybe, all in all, there is not as big of a difference as you suggest.

Read on Twitter

[Richard Miller]

People should focus on his playmaking, not scoring. There's where he makes the difference and is elite of the elite and why he deserves being MVP.

Nope. Playmaking alone wouldn't make him nearly as successful nor would make him an MVP. Ben Simmons at his best was a decent playmaker yet he got exposed big time because he couldn't score. Ex-Nuggets Campazzo was also more than ok as playmaker and now he's back to Europe, again because he couldn't score. Jokic's playmaking and being able to drop efficient 30 or 40 within the flow of the game/while not being a ball hog is what sets him apart.

[ty 4191]

Sure, but that's why Cs are on the top of TS%. They're shooting easier shots. Jokic is not doing something unprecedented there.

As was previously noted, Jokic's career FG% from 5-10 feet is an (astounding) .572 (1649 FGA).

Since 1996-1997, min 1000 FGA, here are some other leaders among players who were primarily (or exclusively) centers.

-Nikola Jokic: .572
-Jonas Valančiūnas: .499
-Karl-Anthony Towns: .485
-Rik Smits: .479
-Robin Lopez: .476
-Hakeem Olajuwon: .473
-Brook Lopez: .459
-Nikola Vučević: .456
-Yao Ming: .453
-Alonzo Mourning:
-Marc Gasol: .446
-Tim Duncan: .430
-Shaquille O'Neal: .421
-Dikembe Mutombo: .419
-Dwight Howard: .397
-Andre Drummond: .382

(PS: As another frame of reference, Giannis shoots .341 (!!) from 5-10 feet.)

If you look at all players with 1000 FGA from 5-10 feet the past 26 years, this puts Jokic's Z Score at +4.2 (standard deviations above the mean). That is 99.973rd percentile!!

As a frame of reference, Wilt scored 40.6 PPG from 1959-1960 through 1964-1965. Oscar was second with 31.1 ppg. Wilt's Z Score for PPG was "only" 3.09 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 10000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 17 PPG, FWIW.

Rodman's TRB% 1991-1992 through 1997-1998 was a staggering 26.0%. Shawn Kemp was a (very) distant second at 19.0%. Rodman's Z Score was "only" 2.85 standard deviations above the mean among all players with 15000 MP those years. The average of all those players was 11.2% TRB%.

(So, yes... I totally agree with you Bob; Jokic's playmaking and passing are his greatest assets, however, his shooting and shot selection are also unprecedented in modern NBA History.)

[Bob8]

Yeah, as some people already said, for Luka to make next step he should develop off the ball game.

You might look at the Mavs roster and tell me, who will be on ball in that case?

And secondly, his TS% is very good for a big volume Pg, he should be better in FT thought. And maybe even more importantly, all those double teams on him opens game for everyone else. Problem is that vast majority don't have any kind of ball handling and passing abilities. That's why missing Brunson is so crucial for Mavs.

Give Luka players like Jrue and Lopez and Mavs will be contenders easily.

I would gladly change Murray and Gordon for anyone from the Mavs too.

I'm not talking about somebody dribbling for 20 seconds with Luka in corner waiting for someone to create for him. Watch more Nuggets games, you will se what I'm talking about. Jokic is great at cutting and moving without ball, now. They will miss him sometimes, make TO trying to pass him the ball, but often when he gets it he shots it and hits.
These assisted stats for Jokic doesn't mean somebody is creating for him. If you take Jokic and Luka off Nuggets and Dallas the next best creator on those teams is Dinwiddie. BTW how many assisted points Luka had last year when Brunson was there?

Being that much bigger makes him more difficult to dribble the ball and much easier to establish position under the basket. Jokic can't do things Luka does and vice versa. You can't compare a big guard and a C and say they should play similarly. They're both good in what they're doing and their teams have very similar success in RS and playoffs, Luka being 4 years younger. Unfortunately the thing they have in common is roster, which is not good enough for something more. LeBron and MJ, the most dominant players in last 30 years, couldn't do anything before they got better teammates. Luka can play off ball and shoot like Curry, Mavs still won't win anything.

The biggest difference from this and last year was Mavs being able to win games without Luka, being able to have decent offensive rating without him and play much better, when Luka was doubled. That's why they were in EFC. And they didn't lose there, because Luka should have played more without ball, but because they didn't have anyone playable on 5. Looney destroyed them in the paint.

[ty 4191]

Jokic is taking less difficult shots because he is creating much better shots for himself and his teammates, but also great in shots with few sec on shot-clock, highly contested shots...(you can find stats on nba.com).

Hi Belgrade,
I can't find the splits on NBA.com. Can you please post them? Thanks!