NBA MVP Discussion Thread 2022-23 (part 5 - The Final-er MVP Countdown!)

[eyeatoma]

Why are ya'll crying, Jokic just won the last two MVPs lol.

Imagine this eyeatoma. Imagine Jokic didn't exist. Imagine Embiid won the last 2 MVPs. Then imagine that this season, Embiid went to a new level where he was literally twice as good as he is right now. He turned the Sixers from a -1 team when he was on the bench to a +20 team when he was on the floor. He raised his (good) supporting cast enough that they were sitting at 65-13. 2/3 of the way through the season, it was near unanimous that double Embiid would win the MVP with arguably the best season of all-time. Then a straw poll came out with him dominating and the media started being like "well, is it REALLY fair that Embiid wins 3 MVPs in a row when he's never even made the conference finals? It's kind of racist against Americans that all these international players keep winning every year and Embiid and GIannis both have 2 MVPs already. Let's give it to Jayson Tatum instead. You know Tatum's a better passer than Embiid, passing's a big part of the game."

And then, due to this stupid, idiotic narrative, even though Tatum hadn't outplayed Embiid meaningfully at all since Embiid was a huge favorite, all of a sudden Tatum was a 6:1 favorite to win MVP. Would you be pissed? Would that upset you at all that instead of people focusing on double Embiid having the greatest season of all-time they just posted lowlights of his passing and made fun of it and said that Tatum was actually better even though double Embiid crushed him by every meaningful metric? If Embiid was so dominant that not only did the top 6 metrics according to NBA GMs have him in first, but one of them had a bigger difference between Embiid in 1st and Tatum in 2nd than they had between Tatum in 2nd and Okogie in 63rd and people were still like "meh, **** it, let's ignore all the evidence and give it to Tatum". Would that piss you off at all?

I honeslty wouldn't give a ****, becaue he won the last 2 MVPS. His legacy is sealed he's an all time great. Nothing left to prove than to win a championship. I'm being genuine about that.

I also wouldn't dig myself into a hole where I'm about to lose $4000.

[eyeatoma]

Why are ya'll crying, Jokic just won the last two MVPs lol.

Imagine this eyeatoma. Imagine Jokic didn't exist. Imagine Embiid won the last 2 MVPs. Then imagine that this season, Embiid went to a new level where he was literally twice as good as he is right now. He turned the Sixers from a -1 team when he was on the bench to a +20 team when he was on the floor. He raised his (good) supporting cast enough that they were sitting at 65-13. 2/3 of the way through the season, it was near unanimous that double Embiid would win the MVP with arguably the best season of all-time. Then a straw poll came out with him dominating and the media started being like "well, is it REALLY fair that Embiid wins 3 MVPs in a row when he's never even made the conference finals? It's kind of racist against Americans that all these international players keep winning every year and Embiid and GIannis both have 2 MVPs already. Let's give it to Jayson Tatum instead. You know Tatum's a better passer than Embiid, passing's a big part of the game."

And then, due to this stupid, idiotic narrative, even though Tatum hadn't outplayed Embiid meaningfully at all since Embiid was a huge favorite, all of a sudden Tatum was a 6:1 favorite to win MVP. Would you be pissed? Would that upset you at all that instead of people focusing on double Embiid having the greatest season of all-time they just posted lowlights of his passing and made fun of it and said that Tatum was actually better even though double Embiid crushed him by every meaningful metric? If Embiid was so dominant that not only did the top 6 metrics according to NBA GMs have him in first, but one of them had a bigger difference between Embiid in 1st and Tatum in 2nd than they had between Tatum in 2nd and Okogie in 63rd and people were still like "meh, **** it, let's ignore all the evidence and give it to Tatum". Would that piss you off at all?

Very well written!
The problem with people like eyeatoma is that they are trapped in their confirmation bias. It is basically impossible to be empathetic to other thoughts (even the most reasonable ones). Just to hang on their narrative. Does unfortunately not end with basketball discussions. The bias is so strong, that they don´t even care one bit about their likeability. So so so sad.

Cry more

Don't bait/taunt people. Debate the post or ignore it. -b

[eyeatoma]

I’m a little pissed off that a disingenuous racist narrative is about to lead to the biggest MVP robbery since Dave Cowens beat Kareem in 1973, costing me $4000, yes. You can’t argue with people who don’t care about logic.

Racist narrative? Does Kendrick Perkins have that much clout? You’re reaching. If I were set to lose that much, I’d probably do the same. lol

Yes, racist narrative. The NBA is the most multi-cultural, liberal, "woke" league in all of professional sports. (I voted for Biden and I'll do it again, I'm not actually saying the left is anywhere near as bad as the right, just pointing out where the NBA fits on the spectrum.) The absolute worst thing that can happen to any of these NBA media types who cover this heavily majority black league is to be accused of being racist. They'll bend over backwards to never dismiss the idea of racism being a factor in any situation because they know that if they say something that's even remotely construed as racist it can end their career.

Perkins made a massively cynical hot take about Jokic winning MVPs because he was white shortly after the straw poll. It was straight out of the Skip Bayless school of saying something stupid for attention, but instead of telling LeBron to "shut up and dribble" while praising Tebow for being a "winner", Perkins was doing the opposite and attacking the white guy and pretending like he was benefiting from privilege in the one sphere where if anything, being white is a disadvantage. The initial reaction to Perkins was negative for stirring up hysteria, but notably the media members didn't want to outright say there couldn't be pro-white racial bias because that goes against the talking points of the furthest fringe of the left wing. All of a sudden, prominent NBA voices like Bill Simmons and Zach Lowe who had been heaping praises on Jokic all year long suddenly went mum. Either they "hadn't decided on the MVP race yet" or it was Embiid. The conversation changed overnight and all of a sudden, 2 good weeks for Embiid were massive and turning the race while a similarly good 2 weeks for Jokic were completely ignored. Pointing out Jokic's virtues just wasn't PC all of a sudden and the more casual voters who just kinda followed the national discourse were swept along in that wake.

Votes are public now and I was actually listening to a podcast the other day where someone was talking about how people were scared to vote against Harden in the MVP race a few years back, because Harden would greatly limit access for interviews and such to people who didn't vote for him. People don't want to get swept up in that **** of doing something that could damage their future career opportunities just for a vote that they don't actually care about. It's easier to just justify "hey, voter fatigue's not so bad, it might actually be a good thing. Let's let Embiid have a turn. Hey he had 50 tonight, that makes it really easy to justify. My eyes in this one game say he's better." I guarantee you that if the MVP race had minimal media coverage and secret ballots, Jokic would still be a lock to win, but Perkins attacking someone for their race just to make people listen to him is actually going to rob possibly the greatest season in the history of the sport from even winning most valuable player for their season.

And yet there is still room for improvement. Despite that, racism has nothing to do with him potentially winning this MVP.

[Wolfgang630]

You can’t blame racism. The Nuggets did this to themselves. They’re the ones who went on a losing streak to really bad teams. Jokic was clearly ahead with the straw polls. If they had won out, like they’re supposed too, he’d still be ahead of Embiid.

[iggymcfrack]

Why are ya'll crying, Jokic just won the last two MVPs lol.

Imagine this eyeatoma. Imagine Jokic didn't exist. Imagine Embiid won the last 2 MVPs. Then imagine that this season, Embiid went to a new level where he was literally twice as good as he is right now. He turned the Sixers from a -1 team when he was on the bench to a +20 team when he was on the floor. He raised his (good) supporting cast enough that they were sitting at 65-13. 2/3 of the way through the season, it was near unanimous that double Embiid would win the MVP with arguably the best season of all-time. Then a straw poll came out with him dominating and the media started being like "well, is it REALLY fair that Embiid wins 3 MVPs in a row when he's never even made the conference finals? It's kind of racist against Americans that all these international players keep winning every year and Embiid and GIannis both have 2 MVPs already. Let's give it to Jayson Tatum instead. You know Tatum's a better passer than Embiid, passing's a big part of the game."

And then, due to this stupid, idiotic narrative, even though Tatum hadn't outplayed Embiid meaningfully at all since Embiid was a huge favorite, all of a sudden Tatum was a 6:1 favorite to win MVP. Would you be pissed? Would that upset you at all that instead of people focusing on double Embiid having the greatest season of all-time they just posted lowlights of his passing and made fun of it and said that Tatum was actually better even though double Embiid crushed him by every meaningful metric? If Embiid was so dominant that not only did the top 6 metrics according to NBA GMs have him in first, but one of them had a bigger difference between Embiid in 1st and Tatum in 2nd than they had between Tatum in 2nd and Okogie in 63rd and people were still like "meh, **** it, let's ignore all the evidence and give it to Tatum". Would that piss you off at all?

I honeslty wouldn't give a ****, becaue he won the last 2 MVPS. His legacy is sealed he's an all time great. Nothing left to prove than to win a championship. I'm being genuine about that.

I also wouldn't dig myself into a hole where I'm about to lose $4000.

I mean I’d only actually lose $800. I’m just gonna miss out on $3900 worth of winnings.

[iggymcfrack]

You can’t blame racism. The Nuggets did this to themselves. They’re the ones who went on a losing streak to really bad teams. Jokic was clearly ahead with the straw polls. If they had won out, like they’re supposed too, he’d still be ahead of Embiid.

Embiid’s record since straw poll 3.0: 13-7
Jokic’s record since straw poll 2.0: 10-7

Jokic still has a much better overall record. Are we really gonna act like a 6% edge in team record over a month and a half is enough to swing the MVP race?

[eyeatoma]

Imagine this eyeatoma. Imagine Jokic didn't exist. Imagine Embiid won the last 2 MVPs. Then imagine that this season, Embiid went to a new level where he was literally twice as good as he is right now. He turned the Sixers from a -1 team when he was on the bench to a +20 team when he was on the floor. He raised his (good) supporting cast enough that they were sitting at 65-13. 2/3 of the way through the season, it was near unanimous that double Embiid would win the MVP with arguably the best season of all-time. Then a straw poll came out with him dominating and the media started being like "well, is it REALLY fair that Embiid wins 3 MVPs in a row when he's never even made the conference finals? It's kind of racist against Americans that all these international players keep winning every year and Embiid and GIannis both have 2 MVPs already. Let's give it to Jayson Tatum instead. You know Tatum's a better passer than Embiid, passing's a big part of the game."

And then, due to this stupid, idiotic narrative, even though Tatum hadn't outplayed Embiid meaningfully at all since Embiid was a huge favorite, all of a sudden Tatum was a 6:1 favorite to win MVP. Would you be pissed? Would that upset you at all that instead of people focusing on double Embiid having the greatest season of all-time they just posted lowlights of his passing and made fun of it and said that Tatum was actually better even though double Embiid crushed him by every meaningful metric? If Embiid was so dominant that not only did the top 6 metrics according to NBA GMs have him in first, but one of them had a bigger difference between Embiid in 1st and Tatum in 2nd than they had between Tatum in 2nd and Okogie in 63rd and people were still like "meh, **** it, let's ignore all the evidence and give it to Tatum". Would that piss you off at all?

I honeslty wouldn't give a ****, becaue he won the last 2 MVPS. His legacy is sealed he's an all time great. Nothing left to prove than to win a championship. I'm being genuine about that.

I also wouldn't dig myself into a hole where I'm about to lose $4000.

I mean I’d only actually lose $800. I’m just gonna miss out on $3900 worth of winnings.

You can't say you're losing money you never had lol.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[LordCovington33]

People start counting their winnings and forget it is not their money yet.

[eyeatoma]

People start counting their winnings and forget it is not their money yet.

Annnnnd that's how you go bankrupt.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[Purch]

At the end of last season, after Embiid came in 2nd place, I said this was his last chance, because I don't think he can play at higher level than what he did that season. However, this year his game has absolutely been absurd. Did not expect him to score nearly 3 points more than the absurd season he had last year.

[Sharkboy242]

As big an Embiid hater I've been, I think he deserves to be the MVP. He's earned it with all his standout performances and scoring outbursts. He's been giving it his all the whole season while Jokic simply hasn't.

It's easier for me to stomach when things are earned, so I don't have a problem with people voting Embiid first given the context of the last two MVP seasons.

[dWadeOwnzYou]

Well that was fun while it lasted. Congrats Joel Embiid.

[Wilfried]

The stats seem to back it up too.

It's Embiid's, or Giannis would sneak it behind his back

[CD_41]

Imagine this eyeatoma. Imagine Jokic didn't exist. Imagine Embiid won the last 2 MVPs. Then imagine that this season, Embiid went to a new level where he was literally twice as good as he is right now. He turned the Sixers from a -1 team when he was on the bench to a +20 team when he was on the floor. He raised his (good) supporting cast enough that they were sitting at 65-13. 2/3 of the way through the season, it was near unanimous that double Embiid would win the MVP with arguably the best season of all-time. Then a straw poll came out with him dominating and the media started being like "well, is it REALLY fair that Embiid wins 3 MVPs in a row when he's never even made the conference finals? It's kind of racist against Americans that all these international players keep winning every year and Embiid and GIannis both have 2 MVPs already. Let's give it to Jayson Tatum instead. You know Tatum's a better passer than Embiid, passing's a big part of the game."

And then, due to this stupid, idiotic narrative, even though Tatum hadn't outplayed Embiid meaningfully at all since Embiid was a huge favorite, all of a sudden Tatum was a 6:1 favorite to win MVP. Would you be pissed? Would that upset you at all that instead of people focusing on double Embiid having the greatest season of all-time they just posted lowlights of his passing and made fun of it and said that Tatum was actually better even though double Embiid crushed him by every meaningful metric? If Embiid was so dominant that not only did the top 6 metrics according to NBA GMs have him in first, but one of them had a bigger difference between Embiid in 1st and Tatum in 2nd than they had between Tatum in 2nd and Okogie in 63rd and people were still like "meh, **** it, let's ignore all the evidence and give it to Tatum". Would that piss you off at all?

Very well written!
The problem with people like eyeatoma is that they are trapped in their confirmation bias. It is basically impossible to be empathetic to other thoughts (even the most reasonable ones). Just to hang on their narrative. Does unfortunately not end with basketball discussions. The bias is so strong, that they don´t even care one bit about their likeability. So so so sad.

Cry more

Joel wins (deservedly so) the MVP, you lose (deservedly so) in life. This forum used to be a place for well-informed, sharp-thinking people. Now it is filled with one-dimensional, intellectually dishonest and hot-headed kids like you.

Personal attacks are not allowed. Debate the post, don't insult the poster. -b

[eyeatoma]

Very well written!
The problem with people like eyeatoma is that they are trapped in their confirmation bias. It is basically impossible to be empathetic to other thoughts (even the most reasonable ones). Just to hang on their narrative. Does unfortunately not end with basketball discussions. The bias is so strong, that they don´t even care one bit about their likeability. So so so sad.

Cry more

Joel wins (deservedly so) the MVP, you lose (deservedly so) in life. This forum used to be a place for well-informed, sharp-thinking people. Now it is filled with one-dimensional, intellectually dishonest and hot-headed kids like you.

Lmao getting a touch personal there eh buddy.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

[CD_41]

Cry more

Joel wins (deservedly so) the MVP, you lose (deservedly so) in life. This forum used to be a place for well-informed, sharp-thinking people. Now it is filled with one-dimensional, intellectually dishonest and hot-headed kids like you.

Lmao getting a touch personal there eh buddy.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

I think that deep down in your heart you know I´m right. Maybe you´re a nice guy in real life, but your blind passion makes you unlikable in a forum like this.

[eyeatoma]

Joel wins (deservedly so) the MVP, you lose (deservedly so) in life. This forum used to be a place for well-informed, sharp-thinking people. Now it is filled with one-dimensional, intellectually dishonest and hot-headed kids like you.

Lmao getting a touch personal there eh buddy.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

I think that deep down in your heart you know I´m right. Maybe you´re a nice guy in real life, but your blind passion makes you unlikable in a forum like this.

At this point you're crossing a line. Talk's cheap especially on an internet forum.

[CD_41]

Lmao getting a touch personal there eh buddy.

Sent from my SM-S918B using Tapatalk

I think that deep down in your heart you know I´m right. Maybe you´re a nice guy in real life, but your blind passion makes you unlikable in a forum like this.

At this point you're crossing a line. Talk's cheap especially on an internet forum.

If you would actually just welcome a tiny bit of criticism I don´t think we´d have this discussion.
You can complain about crossing a line (fair point) but if you keep posting the way you do on this forum, you can´t be surprised by reactions like mine. I´m also not the only one who is annoyed by you. Also not by your opinions (I share some of them) but by the way you share them.

Keep telling yourself that you´re doing everything right. But that will not end well for you.

[DutchManDanFan]

Why are ya'll crying, Jokic just won the last two MVPs lol.

I mean aside from my bet which is the reason I'm most pissed, this stupid ridiculous MVP debate is completely obscuring what a historic season Jokic is having. Pretending that Giannis and Embiid are on his level and that there's an actual "race" for MVP keeps us from having the conversation we actually should be having based on what an incredible season Jokic is having. We should be asking "is Jokic better than Curry in 2016? Is he better than LeBron in 2009? Is he better than Jordan in 1991?" Is this the best anyone's ever played basketball in the history of the sport? But no, everyone's just making excuses to write off all of Jokic's unprecedented numbers. The pretend debate over whether he's even the best player this season is completely distracting from the much more legitimate debate over whether this is the best regular season of all-time.

The only relevant questions are:
Is Jokic better than Giannis this season?
Is Jokic better than Embiid this season?
On offense he has a good case, but it's not a given. On defense he's nowhere close. So both answers are: no.

Jokic would not be in the conversation at all if the Bucks won in Denver. Giannis outplayed Jokic in the first half. But the Bucks had the worst b2b possible and it was showing in the 2nd half. And Jokic got a lot more help from his team than Giannis. Murray won that game for Denver. Denver had a b2b in Milwaukee as well, but Jokic sat that game. And Embiid didn't play in Denver.

A few months a go I said the Bucks need a margin of 5 games and Giannis needs to play enough games. There are talks of 65 games being the minimum and Giannis will play exactly 65 games. The Bucks are 5 games in front of Denver and Phily now.

I expect the Bucks win the next 2 and lose the last game. In the last game couch Bud puts in the end of the bench guys for 45+ minutes as he does every year (even if there's a better seed at steak, like last year...).

If Phily wins the last 3 (vs Miami, @Atlanta, @Brooklyn), they are less than 5 wins behind the Bucks and Embiid deserves to win MVP. Although Giannis still has a very good case.

My prediction:
1. Embiid
2. Giannis
3. Jokic

[nikster]

Why are ya'll crying, Jokic just won the last two MVPs lol.

I mean aside from my bet which is the reason I'm most pissed, this stupid ridiculous MVP debate is completely obscuring what a historic season Jokic is having. Pretending that Giannis and Embiid are on his level and that there's an actual "race" for MVP keeps us from having the conversation we actually should be having based on what an incredible season Jokic is having. We should be asking "is Jokic better than Curry in 2016? Is he better than LeBron in 2009? Is he better than Jordan in 1991?" Is this the best anyone's ever played basketball in the history of the sport? But no, everyone's just making excuses to write off all of Jokic's unprecedented numbers. The pretend debate over whether he's even the best player this season is completely distracting from the much more legitimate debate over whether this is the best regular season of all-time.

The only relevant questions are:
Is Jokic better than Giannis this season?
Is Jokic better than Embiid this season?
On offense he has a good case, but it's not a given. On defense he's nowhere close. So both answers are: no.

Jokic would not be in the conversation at all if the Bucks won in Denver. Giannis outplayed Jokic in the first half. But the Bucks had the worst b2b possible and it was showing in the 2nd half. And Jokic got a lot more help from his team than Giannis. Murray won that game for Denver. Denver had a b2b in Milwaukee as well, but Jokic sat that game. And Embiid didn't play in Denver.

A few months a go I said the Bucks need a margin of 5 games and Giannis needs to play enough games. There are talks of 65 games being the minimum and Giannis will play exactly 65 games. The Bucks are 5 games in front of Denver and Phily now.

I expect the Bucks win the next 2 and lose the last game. In the last game couch Bud puts in the end of the bench guys for 45+ minutes as he does every year (even if there's a better seed at steak, like last year...).

If Phily wins the last 3 (vs Miami, @Atlanta, @Brooklyn), they are less than 5 wins behind the Bucks and Embiid deserves to win MVP. Although Giannis still has a very good case.

My prediction:
1. Embiid
2. Giannis
3. Jokic

I can get having the others above Jokic overall but I think he is clearly the best offensive player of the group. Hes roght ip there with them as a a scorer (tho embiid probably takes that title this year) but His playmaking just consistently elevates his teammates and their offense in a way the others can't.