Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic

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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#241 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon May 15, 2023 2:22 pm

Tottery wrote:
Primedeion wrote:I love you ignore his All-NBA teammate in 06. The reality is that he played with great talent throughout his prime and won nothing, but these delusional Nash stans want to call out other guys for choking. It's hilarious.


A big part of Marion making that team was Nash. Marion, Stoudemire, Johnson, and co. were there prior seasons before Nash arrived and couldn't even make the playoffs. It doesn't matter which facts someone brings you. You're just a hater, but here's a fun fact anyway; Nash averaged more ppg the postseason after winning MVP than Joel Embiid. A true MVP who elevated his game when it mattered most.

Marion was sort of a Aaron Gordon, though
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#242 » by Tottery » Mon May 15, 2023 2:28 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Tottery wrote:
Primedeion wrote:I love you ignore his All-NBA teammate in 06. The reality is that he played with great talent throughout his prime and won nothing, but these delusional Nash stans want to call out other guys for choking. It's hilarious.


A big part of Marion making that team was Nash. Marion, Stoudemire, Johnson, and co. were there prior seasons before Nash arrived and couldn't even make the playoffs. It doesn't matter which facts someone brings you. You're just a hater, but here's a fun fact anyway; Nash averaged more ppg the postseason after winning MVP than Joel Embiid. A true MVP who elevated his game when it mattered most.

Marion was sort of a Aaron Gordon, though


I liked Marion. He was good, but that team needed Nash for any success.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#243 » by Exp0sed » Mon May 15, 2023 2:45 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Exp0sed wrote:
BloodNinja wrote:Amazing that in this game alone Embiid got cooked worse than Jokic ever has.


eh, it's alot more than this one game - it's every game and every playoffs but no doubt this was the icing on the cake for his haters

maybe it's one game but he was generationally bad in this one particular game, which just happened to also be the biggest game of his career. what's a generation, 25 years? I doubt we'll see another performance as poor as this by an MVP in win or go home game in another 25 years, might have to wait 50 maybe evern a 100 haha

maybe if he wasn't busy ducking the Joker in Denver, he'd actually learn a few coping skills and stopped being such a wuss
when he ducked that game I knew we were gonna see him in the playoffs with his tail between his legs soon enough


decent candidate

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200105270LAL.html


true, but the fact that u had to go back almost 25 years tells us all we need to know :P
and even then, he wasn't the worst player on the floor (or THAT bad in general), the teams overall weren't as evenly matched (as in Bos\Phi) and being down 0-3, is very different from a game 7

Embiid's game blows TD's out of the water, but def derserves an honorary mention in this context for sure :)
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#244 » by Homer38 » Mon May 15, 2023 2:48 pm

I compare Jokic to Tim Duncan....They are completely different players but even if Jokic and Duncan are great and they had a great prime and peak, they don't get the recognition they deserve from the media
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#245 » by Exp0sed » Mon May 15, 2023 3:00 pm

Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I really think some of you guys are going too far against Embiid, he was clearly not 100% in the post season.
Is this a legit concern given his history? Of course yes, but I hate when players are getting clowned for being injured. It was for Davis and it is for Embiid, unless there's a reasonable suspicion it's their fault (Zion).

I think Embiid should build on this, and develop in the following way:
- lose some weight, gain some mobility and stamina at the expense of some of his power
- pace himself and reduce his offensive usage
- maximize his defensive potential
- stop chasing RS objectives, there's no point stressing his own body too much.

I hope though this series showed a few things:
- why the difference on offense between he (and Giannis) and Jokic is massive, they are in different tiers. If you load on him you can limit his impact
- his defensive impact can be negated in some situations, in particular once he starts gassing out

I think he can work on both these things and come back stronger, but first thing would be to take full responsibility and recognize that it's on him to improve.


I agree with every word you wrote except the beginning
injuries don't work like that, so when he's jumping in perfect timing and max elevation to block 4 shots in one half - his knee is fine, but the following play when he's bricking ill-advised off-balance shots, suddently it's his knee that's boterhing him?

i'm not saying he was a 100% but he was close enough, his injury is NOT the reason for this shameful performance. it's his determination, will, competivenes, concentration, poor decision making, cracking under pressure etc - he sucked because he choked and because teams who have versatile, smart defenders that game plan for him over a series, can negate alot of his impact on both ends - not because of his knee

even teams like that poor Raps team without a Center at all, gave him fits
i mean how many times can u sneak up on a guy and just take the ball out of his hands before he realizes he might need to raise his awareness, or just put the ball higher like the Joker does?

he did everything so slow...except for the few times where he euro'ed to an open lane and dunked
then he was swift af and his knee was a 100%

in the KG\Barnes podcast a couple of days ago, KG was talking about how if u let a guy have 6-7 dribbles in the post - that's basically a bucket, I mean left, right, over, under a decent post player will find the opening if he is allowed that many post dribbles

Jokic is the only one currently in the league that can pull it off, because of his insane i.q and awareness
does he get stripped sometimes? sure, but it doesn't happen often so he can afford to do that

Embiid simply cannot, if the ball is down there 1 sec too many, the defense expects him one way or another and it becomes a play that doesn't yield much more than league average efficiency at best

Embiid plays very slow in the post (when he's not facing up), slow with his hands slow with his feet and slow with his mind

that won't cut it vs a team like a C's and every season in order to win a ring, Embiid will have to go thru one or more teams that have the personnel and the disclpine to do it

he is not a viable first option in the playoff and seemingly - he isn't willing to work hard for it either just to face up and take jumpers
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#246 » by Pennebaker » Mon May 15, 2023 3:00 pm

Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#247 » by tsherkin » Mon May 15, 2023 3:14 pm

nbhadja wrote:Yeah. Rose was so overrated. His embiid like chucking is not what won Chicago those games.

Westbrook is the worst mvp of all time. He disgraced the award.


I wouldn't go that far. Chicago's offense was bleh because they had no real offensive support AROUND Rose, selling out to play defense and rebound. And then they had an unremarkable volume scorer leading the attack. But if you put good offensive players around him, that O would obviously look different. He was a +0.9% rTS guy in 2011 at 25 ppg with a tepid shot past about 15, 16 feet. The team was 5th-worst in the league at FT% (certainly not Rose's fault and he was quite good at the line) and sort of just above middle of the pack in terms of making shots. They were 4th-best at offensive rebounding, so it took some of the sting out of their relatively unremarkable shot-making. Meantime, they needed him to put up those shots in order to have any kind of offense at all. "So overrated" is really an exaggeration. Like, he shouldn't have won the MVP that year, but he was still a high-end player driving the offense of a very successful team. It was very much like an 01 Sixers scenario.

And Westbrook was far from the worst MVP of all time. In 2017, he got that OKC team to the 6th seed in a tough West and had no one of consequence on offense. Andre Roberson, Victor Oladipo, 20 year-old Domantas Sabonis? A quarter season of what remained of Taj Gibson? Like, c'mon. Steven Adams was good but not a scoring force. Again, as a result of team construction, the POA guy was driving the offense with volume, only Westbrook was better at generating shots for teammates than Iverson or Rose. He led the league in scoring, averaged a triple double (first guy to do so since Oscar Robertson in the 60s), was third in the league in APG, I believe that's the top season we've seen in terms of Box Creation to date, led the league in VORP and OBPM, and he even did that while posting +0.2% rTS... which is low, and worse than Rose, but somewhat noteworthy on over 31 ppg while doing everything else he was doing. And like Rose and AI, he was a better scoring option than his teammates even still, so... Westie isn't really that likeable and he's been quite rough for several years now, but in 2017, that was very much not the case.

And I'm not sure where you're getting "chucking" out of Embiid. He certainly went down like a lamb this year against Boston but as far as the RS goes, he wasn't chucking, he was providing a major backbone for the 4th-best offense in the league, despite being the 4th-slowest team in the league. He was definitely an MVP-caliber player, Game 7 v Boston notwithstanding.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#248 » by p0peye » Mon May 15, 2023 3:18 pm

Wallace_Wallace wrote:
p0peye wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, please meet MVP and best scorer of regular season:

Image


Only one game over 50% shooting……


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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#249 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon May 15, 2023 3:19 pm

But the media said so!

Embiid didn't score more because he would be stat padding like that Jokic.

If you can't see more than his stats you aren't evaluating correctly, you don't have the same basketball knowledge as the voters.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#250 » by Homer38 » Mon May 15, 2023 3:19 pm

Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.


This is a 5 vs 5 game,not a 1 one 1.....
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#251 » by Joao Saraiva » Mon May 15, 2023 3:20 pm

Homer38 wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.


This is a 5 vs 5 game,not a 1 one 1.....


No it isn't. Because if Steph eliminated Bron we would do put him on mount rushmore.

Even if Steph actually played pretty well he lost, therefore he sucks.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#252 » by lambchop » Mon May 15, 2023 3:23 pm

Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.


It simply depends who gets the ball first. If it's a matchup with Curry or SGA (1st team all nba), then Jokic will simply post them up. If it's against Giannis, it depends cause there are days where freak can't make a single jump shot. Someone like Tatum would cook him 1 on 1.

That said, it's a game of 5 on 5. You really don't have to be elite at 1 on 1 to excel in a 5 on 5 setting, unless you're mainly an isolation player.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#253 » by Exp0sed » Mon May 15, 2023 3:44 pm

Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.


he sure would
is basketball in the NBA played 1 on 1? lmfao

Embiid has more turnovers than assists in every postseason series he's ever played basically
Jokic might be the GOAT passer

who cares about 1 one 1?

edit: in these playoffs Jokic created more points for his teammates than Joel created for himself
that's iregardless of also scoring considerably more than Embiid AND on better efficiency
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#254 » by Infinite Llamas » Mon May 15, 2023 3:56 pm

Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.


Annnnnnd the Jokic criticisms have officially reached the rock bottom level of desperation. Congrats.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#255 » by Maf » Mon May 15, 2023 4:04 pm

cupcakesnake wrote:
Primedeion wrote: in case anyone didn't know Marion was on the team. You'll be hard pressed to find a bigger Marion fan on this board than me. I practically modeled my game after him going up.



Like... This?


Just kidding, this video is just all-time classic. :lol: On more serious (not too much still) note, hope you skipped copying that ugly ass jump shot. :noway: :lol:
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#256 » by cupcakesnake » Mon May 15, 2023 4:09 pm

Exp0sed wrote:
Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.


he sure would
is basketball in the NBA played 1 on 1? lmfao

Embiid has more turnovers than assists in every postseason series he's ever played basically
Jokic might be the GOAT passer

who cares about 1 one 1?

edit: in these playoffs Jokic created more points for his teammates than Joel created for himself
that's iregardless of also scoring considerably more than Embiid AND on better efficiency


The 1-on-1 argument is funny because whenever we get to watch practice footage of guys playing 1-on-1 it's so clear that none of them can guard each other in that context. They all go to their pull up and generally get good looks. One guy will hit 2-3 shots more than the other guy and that's all she wrote.

NBA players are used to attacking full on defensive schemes geared to stop them and make reads under pressure. Getting their shot off against a single defender is extremely chill for the top guys. Embiid and Jokic would score every time against eachother. Embiid with his pull up, Joker with his goofy floater. Whoever got the ball first would probably win. This isn't a way to measure a good NBA player.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#257 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon May 15, 2023 4:10 pm

Tottery wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:
Tottery wrote:
A big part of Marion making that team was Nash. Marion, Stoudemire, Johnson, and co. were there prior seasons before Nash arrived and couldn't even make the playoffs. It doesn't matter which facts someone brings you. You're just a hater, but here's a fun fact anyway; Nash averaged more ppg the postseason after winning MVP than Joel Embiid. A true MVP who elevated his game when it mattered most.

Marion was sort of a Aaron Gordon, though


I liked Marion. He was good, but that team needed Nash for any success.


I probably did not express myself properly.
Marion needed Nash the same way Gordon needed Jokic, he was a high energy finisher.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#258 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon May 15, 2023 4:11 pm

Pennebaker wrote:Embiid would beat Jokic 1 on 1.

I don't think Jokic can beat any of the other top players 1 on 1.

not so sure Embiid would win, actually.
Not that it matters, of course.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#259 » by Ryoga Hibiki » Mon May 15, 2023 4:19 pm

Exp0sed wrote:
Ryoga Hibiki wrote:I really think some of you guys are going too far against Embiid, he was clearly not 100% in the post season.
Is this a legit concern given his history? Of course yes, but I hate when players are getting clowned for being injured. It was for Davis and it is for Embiid, unless there's a reasonable suspicion it's their fault (Zion).

I think Embiid should build on this, and develop in the following way:
- lose some weight, gain some mobility and stamina at the expense of some of his power
- pace himself and reduce his offensive usage
- maximize his defensive potential
- stop chasing RS objectives, there's no point stressing his own body too much.

I hope though this series showed a few things:
- why the difference on offense between he (and Giannis) and Jokic is massive, they are in different tiers. If you load on him you can limit his impact
- his defensive impact can be negated in some situations, in particular once he starts gassing out

I think he can work on both these things and come back stronger, but first thing would be to take full responsibility and recognize that it's on him to improve.


I agree with every word you wrote except the beginning
injuries don't work like that, so when he's jumping in perfect timing and max elevation to block 4 shots in one half - his knee is fine, but the following play when he's bricking ill-advised off-balance shots, suddently it's his knee that's boterhing him?

i'm not saying he was a 100% but he was close enough, his injury is NOT the reason for this shameful performance. it's his determination, will, competivenes, concentration, poor decision making, cracking under pressure etc - he sucked because he choked and because teams who have versatile, smart defenders that game plan for him over a series, can negate alot of his impact on both ends - not because of his knee

even teams like that poor Raps team without a Center at all, gave him fits
i mean how many times can u sneak up on a guy and just take the ball out of his hands before he realizes he might need to raise his awareness, or just put the ball higher like the Joker does?

he did everything so slow...except for the few times where he euro'ed to an open lane and dunked
then he was swift af and his knee was a 100%

in the KG\Barnes podcast a couple of days ago, KG was talking about how if u let a guy have 6-7 dribbles in the post - that's basically a bucket, I mean left, right, over, under a decent post player will find the opening if he is allowed that many post dribbles

Jokic is the only one currently in the league that can pull it off, because of his insane i.q and awareness
does he get stripped sometimes? sure, but it doesn't happen often so he can afford to do that

Embiid simply cannot, if the ball is down there 1 sec too many, the defense expects him one way or another and it becomes a play that doesn't yield much more than league average efficiency at best

Embiid plays very slow in the post (when he's not facing up), slow with his hands slow with his feet and slow with his mind

that won't cut it vs a team like a C's and every season in order to win a ring, Embiid will have to go thru one or more teams that have the personnel and the disclpine to do it

he is not a viable first option in the playoff and seemingly - he isn't willing to work hard for it either just to face up and take jumpers


I think the injury didn't really bother him that much if running on straight line or just load up and jump, but it became an issue the moment he had to change direction and move laterally, and that was very obvious when he was defending in space.
but where I agree is that Joel has some limitations on offense the moment you ask him to create against a fully loaded and well prepared offense.
Because of the nature of the game, big men can be planned against by a modern defense more easily if not set up, unless they have the vision of Nikola Jokic. In the move even this Joel would have been lethal, but Harden didn't have it either.
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Re: Don't wanna hear Embiid is better than Jokic 

Post#260 » by liquidswords » Mon May 15, 2023 4:27 pm

As an Embiid fan, I'm tired of him. He has so much talent and, when committed, absolutely unstoppable. But he doesn't have that killer instinct. Its sad.

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