Steve Nash really should have won multiple championships.

[HMFFL]

Just looking back at some of the teams he played for dude had Amare Stoudemire/Joe Johnson/Shawn Marion. That team should have won a championship.

He also had prime Dirk. Then he had Kobe/Pau/Dwight at the end of his career.


Why couldn't Steve Nash get over the hump with these talented teams?

Joe Johnson was very young at the time.

Amare was good but he wasn't impactful enough.

Shawn Marion was a fantasy basketball God. #1 overall in most leagues for a couple of seasons.

Like most, not many people took Phoenix as a serious championship contender, because they didn't play the beet defense, and they never made the upgrades to be serious. They had a heck or a bench at times with some very key talents.

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[infinite11285]

.

.

Please stop the continuous back and forth. Further action will be taken if either of you continue to attack each other.

[DimesandKnicks]

So I never said Nash was inhibited by Nellie. He just wasn't optimized in Dallas

just like James Harden when he was all NBA first team and an MVP candidate pre-optimization

Just like Harden post Houston when he went to Brooklyn and adjusted his game from having free range to go one on one to having to compete with two ball dominant scorers and becoming a full time pg

Just like Dirk when he went from pick and pop to the high post

Just like Steph when he went from Mark Jackson to Steve Kerr and won MVP after having a season that last year that was arguably statistically better.

To get the best out of great players you have to optimize your system for them. But great players adjust their games in ways that are optimal for their teams to win.

and wasn't as featured as he could be because Nellie preferred as many cooks in the kitchen as possible. Dirk was the main option in Dallas always, as he probably should have been. But it wasn't a tight little offense around the skills of Dirk, Finley, and Nash. Nellie loved to add extra actions and use all the tools at his disposal. From 2002-2004, Dallas made big room in its offense for guys like: Juwan Howard, Van Exel, old Tim Hardaway, Raef LaFrentz, Antoine Walker, and Antawn Jamison. Nellie even tried brief experiments running offense for guys like Wang Zhizhi and Antoine Rigeaudeau lol. I do think it was sloppy at times, and the best Mavs team was 2003, when Nellie played more defensive hustle guys in lineups next to his offensive players, rather than live his dream of playing 5 point forwards lol.

Nellie-ball in Dallas produced some serious offensive fireworks and Nash got to show the value of his rare shooting/playmaking synergy. But if your very best skill is creating plays off the dribble, you're not going to be your best individual self playing on a team with a bunch of other guys needing the ball in their hands. I think you can attack Nash's "portability" because of this, and I do think he's an MVP with the ball in his hands, and more of an all-NBA 3rd team guy when he's blending in with other ball dominant players.

As far as I remember, independent of the year with Walker, the Mavs offense was focused on the 2 man/3 man game and elbow actions. This is a very pg friendly style of play. Than Nash joined an offense that was so innovative at the time that it was seen as a novelty. The media couldn’t wait to trash the Sun’s as soon as they lost to reinforce the fact that you can’t play basketball that way.

That’s why when you guys say optimized. It’s like what are we talking about? What other coach during that period do you think was more PG friendly than Nelson’s offense which ran those above actions, ran fast, and had an elite stretch 4? I really am curious.

I actually do think being "optimized" is the difference between being an all-NBA 3rd team guy and being in the MVP discussion.

Being “optimized” is the difference from being a perennial all-NBA first/second teamer/ Top 10 MVP candidate to be an MVP. There are plenty examples of this. I don’t believe there are any examples of your hypothesis.

There's not an exact analogous situation for Nash's weird career, and I'm noticing that whenever I give you an example to show a personality, you prefer to flip it to point out the differences rather than address the point I'm trying to make with it (explaining to me that Steve Nash is not Michael Jordan!). Steph and Durant stopped winning MVPs when they played together (despite fitting together in a way that was still quite optimal due to their off-ball stuff).

I keep flipping it because they aren’t good examples. Even this one. Curry and Durant were still All NBA first and second teamers those two years and both got enough MVP votes to finish top 10 in voting. They also won back to back championships and are regarding as one of the greatest teams of all time.

Part of the weirdness of Steve Nash's late-career bloom is simply that he wasn't a no brainer star coming into the league. He was a lottery pick so he didn't come out of nowhere. Maybe he got Stockton comps at the time (I was super young and only sort of following the league when Nash was in college). It did take innovative coaches to imagine Steve Nash as the epicentre of an offense. Anyone can imagine it for a Lebron or a Dirk.

Dirk absolutely had to prove himself but became all nba by his third season in a western conference that was a gauntlet for PFs. European players still had that stigma for being soft during his time and really long after he got into the league.

The Nash dislikers have this consistent argument that any good point guard could have done what Nash did in Phoenix.

Any all-nba level PG. At least most of them.

But I don't get it. A) so why didn't anyone do it if it was so simple? and

[/quote]

D’antoni’s starting PGs outside of Nash were:

Chris Duhon who would never start for another organization again and was out of the league three years later

Raymond Felton who ran the 7th best offense in the league and scored the 2nd most PPG. This season would be the beginning of the end for Raymond Felton. And I’m willing to bet that that offense was a top five before the Melo trade which completely **** our offense. It was so bad the home crowd started booing Melo.

Jeremy Lin averaged about 18 and 8 as a nobody before Anthony came back. Lin also became the biggest story in sports for two weeks!

Russell Westbrook, who managed to be more efficient and score more points than he did the previous season alongside the ball dominant Harden despite being the more ball dominant player and in MVP form. This is a year after still playing with that stripped OKC team where he was the offense. This team, after one year of playing together lost to the eventual champs in the Lebron Lakers in a gentleman’s sweep

Chris Paul managed to still average comparable numbers in Houston alongside James Harden at the peak of his USG rate despite having always been the man on every team he played for. People forget this team took the KD, Steph Warriors to 7 games and could have won if Paul wasn’t injured for the last two games. Than lost two six the next year to the same team. I think it goes without saying this was one of the top offenses. Funny how Paul isn’t afforded the same excuses that Nash is.

So the answer to your question is, he did!

[SkyBill40]

.

.

Please stop the continuous back and forth. Further action will be taken if either of you continue to attack each other.

Dude just straight ignored your post and wallbanged another retort. Wowza.

[DimesandKnicks]

.

.

Please stop the continuous back and forth. Further action will be taken if either of you continue to attack each other.

Dude just straight ignored your post and wallbanged another retort. Wowza.

The retort is literally to a completely different person

[SkyBill40]

Please stop the continuous back and forth. Further action will be taken if either of you continue to attack each other.

Dude just straight ignored your post and wallbanged another retort. Wowza.

The retort is literally to a completely different person

Don't really think it matters seeing a warning was issued, but you do what you think best.

[One_and_Done]

You’ve misunderstood my sentiments. I’m not comparing Marbury to Nash. I’m saying Marbury could have succeeded in that system as well. I bought up Marbury in response to someone saying Nash replaced a 29 win Suns team and drove them to 60 games, when the reality is that 29 win team was coached by Frank Johnson, traded Marbury and didn’t have Amare for a full season.

You wrote a whole to argue something that no one is arguing.

I’m not a Nash hater because I recognize the fact that SSOL is clearly the driving force behind him becoming a HOF. He’s simply overrated. He’s a back to back MVP that missed the Allstar game and all nba selections after playing more than half a season without that system, while when that system was reintroduced he returned to putting up HOF numbers in the same season.

This puts him in a class with Kareem, MJ, Bird, Magic, Curry, Lebron, Duncan, Magic, Wilt, Russell

These are people in everyone’s top 10. Moses is another one and he won an MVP with two different teams. Giannis won back to back, DPOY and a championship. Jokic will likely join that club. All of these players won championships. Nash didn’t have that impact, and without that system he was a sometimes all nba level player

Ok gotcha. Sorry for jumping in halfway through and missing your initial point, and thanks for re-clarifying what you're saying.

Here's what I agree and disagree with:
- Nash is an outlier in terms of multiple MVP winners. Most of the multi-MVPs are simply the very best players of all-time. You could argue that 12 of the 15 multi-MVPs are straight up the 12 best players ever (or will be since Jokic and Giannis are still mid-career)

- However, Nash isn't the only outlier. Nash is a top 20-30 guy, which puts him in a very similar range to the Malones and Bob Pettit. In the PC's boards current top 100 project: Karl was 19th, Moses 23rd, Nash 24th, Petit 31. Players who are top 30ish, lots of them won single MVPs, and many easily could have won 2. Nash was definitely lucky to win 2, but he's in a tier of talent/impact where winning multiple MVPs is a possibility. There are better players than Nash who only won 1 (Shaq, Hakeem, KG, Dirk, D-Rob, West, Kobe, Big O), but there's some bad luck there.

- You say Nash "didn't have that impact" but there's a TON of basketball analysis out there that sees Nash as one of the most impactful offensive guards of all-time.

- I think you're being a little too brutal with how you're assessing the non-D'Antoni years. The 2009 year was simply a mess for reasons that had nothing to do with Nash. They tried to play a 36-year-old Shaq next to Amar'e, often while playing another bad shooter in Grant Hill. It wasn't just not SSOL, it was a really awful concept, especially because Shaq and Amar'e were 2 of the worst defensive bigs in the league. It was the worst defense of the Nash era. (Raja Bell also missed the season). Despite this horrible team building and coaching, Nash still led the Suns to the #2 offense and 46 wins. I really don't care about making or not making the all-star team lol. So what if voters messed that up and erroneously decided guys like Tony Parker and Amar'e were better than Nash that year?

- I also disagree with Alvin Gentry bringing back the same offense. It re-prioritized Nash/Amar'e pick & roll (what offense wouldn't?), and brought back more shooting (Frye, Dudley playing big roles off the bench). I disagree in general with what you think SSOL is if you think it's a system that boosted Nash. It's like saying "Lebronball" boosted Lebron. When you have a guy who can create championship level offense as a ball handler, you tend to put the ball in his hands and build the roster around that. What do you think was unique about SSOL that artificially boosted Nash? You could put other ball handlers in that "system" and yeah it would help that post good assist numbers, but it's not guaranteed to create historic offense. Having a guy who is a historically good passer and historically good shooter makes a massive difference. Marbury would have struggled in that system because he was a piss poor decision maker and a bad shooter. Maybe Marbury posts better assist numbers, but his inability to shoot from deep, and not having the patience to probe the paint, would not generate the same offensive efficiency. New York never had a great offense under D'Antoni. D'Antoni had 2 HISTORIC offenses with Nash, and Gentry had another one. D'Antoni's Houston teams were almost at that level offensively but not quite.

- Basically what you're saying with your final statement:

and without that system he was a sometimes all nba level player

can be said about anyone. If you don't use a player optimally, they'll be worse. If you asked MJ to be in a system where he shot more 3s and wasn't allowed to attack in the midrange, he'd be worse. If you asked Lebron to be less of a point guard, he'd be worse. We saw Nash used suboptimally in Dallas. Dallas never spammed pick & roll with Nash or Dirk. Nellie liked to tinker and use all the toys in his toy chest. Nash still got to contribute to elite offense in Dallas, but sometimes he had to space on the wing while Finley or (gulp) Antoine Walker went to work. Imo, if Nellie had just been like: ok we do everything around Nash and Dirk's 2-man game, Dallas might have won a championship. Anyways, it's not really a strong point I don't think to say that Nash needed to be used right. I don't see how you're saying anything more than that with the SSOL point. Nash spent his 30s optimized, and spent his 20s unoptimized.

All this has been explained to him already. Multiple times. He just chooses to live within his own narrative.

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I think the idea Nash is "a top 20-30 guy" is underselling him. Is Kobe a top 20-30 guy? Because Nash was straight up better than him once he was made the alpha. I'd have Nash in my top 20 I'd say.

[uncleduck13]

Ok gotcha. Sorry for jumping in halfway through and missing your initial point, and thanks for re-clarifying what you're saying.

Here's what I agree and disagree with:
- Nash is an outlier in terms of multiple MVP winners. Most of the multi-MVPs are simply the very best players of all-time. You could argue that 12 of the 15 multi-MVPs are straight up the 12 best players ever (or will be since Jokic and Giannis are still mid-career)

- However, Nash isn't the only outlier. Nash is a top 20-30 guy, which puts him in a very similar range to the Malones and Bob Pettit. In the PC's boards current top 100 project: Karl was 19th, Moses 23rd, Nash 24th, Petit 31. Players who are top 30ish, lots of them won single MVPs, and many easily could have won 2. Nash was definitely lucky to win 2, but he's in a tier of talent/impact where winning multiple MVPs is a possibility. There are better players than Nash who only won 1 (Shaq, Hakeem, KG, Dirk, D-Rob, West, Kobe, Big O), but there's some bad luck there.

- You say Nash "didn't have that impact" but there's a TON of basketball analysis out there that sees Nash as one of the most impactful offensive guards of all-time.

- I think you're being a little too brutal with how you're assessing the non-D'Antoni years. The 2009 year was simply a mess for reasons that had nothing to do with Nash. They tried to play a 36-year-old Shaq next to Amar'e, often while playing another bad shooter in Grant Hill. It wasn't just not SSOL, it was a really awful concept, especially because Shaq and Amar'e were 2 of the worst defensive bigs in the league. It was the worst defense of the Nash era. (Raja Bell also missed the season). Despite this horrible team building and coaching, Nash still led the Suns to the #2 offense and 46 wins. I really don't care about making or not making the all-star team lol. So what if voters messed that up and erroneously decided guys like Tony Parker and Amar'e were better than Nash that year?

- I also disagree with Alvin Gentry bringing back the same offense. It re-prioritized Nash/Amar'e pick & roll (what offense wouldn't?), and brought back more shooting (Frye, Dudley playing big roles off the bench). I disagree in general with what you think SSOL is if you think it's a system that boosted Nash. It's like saying "Lebronball" boosted Lebron. When you have a guy who can create championship level offense as a ball handler, you tend to put the ball in his hands and build the roster around that. What do you think was unique about SSOL that artificially boosted Nash? You could put other ball handlers in that "system" and yeah it would help that post good assist numbers, but it's not guaranteed to create historic offense. Having a guy who is a historically good passer and historically good shooter makes a massive difference. Marbury would have struggled in that system because he was a piss poor decision maker and a bad shooter. Maybe Marbury posts better assist numbers, but his inability to shoot from deep, and not having the patience to probe the paint, would not generate the same offensive efficiency. New York never had a great offense under D'Antoni. D'Antoni had 2 HISTORIC offenses with Nash, and Gentry had another one. D'Antoni's Houston teams were almost at that level offensively but not quite.

- Basically what you're saying with your final statement:

can be said about anyone. If you don't use a player optimally, they'll be worse. If you asked MJ to be in a system where he shot more 3s and wasn't allowed to attack in the midrange, he'd be worse. If you asked Lebron to be less of a point guard, he'd be worse. We saw Nash used suboptimally in Dallas. Dallas never spammed pick & roll with Nash or Dirk. Nellie liked to tinker and use all the toys in his toy chest. Nash still got to contribute to elite offense in Dallas, but sometimes he had to space on the wing while Finley or (gulp) Antoine Walker went to work. Imo, if Nellie had just been like: ok we do everything around Nash and Dirk's 2-man game, Dallas might have won a championship. Anyways, it's not really a strong point I don't think to say that Nash needed to be used right. I don't see how you're saying anything more than that with the SSOL point. Nash spent his 30s optimized, and spent his 20s unoptimized.

All this has been explained to him already. Multiple times. He just chooses to live within his own narrative.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

I think the idea Nash is "a top 20-30 guy" is underselling him. Is Kobe a top 20-30 guy? Because Nash was straight up better than him once he was made the alpha. I'd have Nash in my top 20 I'd say.

PPG nerds ain’t gonna like this

[One_and_Done]

Do I care? Nash got 2 MVPs over Kobe's 1 lifetime achievement award because he was better. Kobe's impact just wasn't that high. From 99-07 Kobe led the Lakers to a 135-137 record in games Shaq missed. Thoroughly mediocre.

[Lost92Bricks]

Chris paul!

Blake, a top 3 mvp candidate at his peak, himself, deandre, reddick, DEPTH, something the suns always lacked, and couldn't get out the 1st round . Choke after choke. You should make a thread holding cp3 accountable of anything. Uext thats the example you want to use.

Edit: couldnt get out the 2nd round. Not 1st.


Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

At least he got to the finals and came close to winning a championship...

[canada_dry]

Chris paul!

Blake, a top 3 mvp candidate at his peak, himself, deandre, reddick, DEPTH, something the suns always lacked, and couldn't get out the 1st round . Choke after choke. You should make a thread holding cp3 accountable of anything. Uext thats the example you want to use.

Edit: couldnt get out the 2nd round. Not 1st.


Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

At least he got to the finals and came close to winning a championship...

Never got past the 2nd round as a #1 option. Nash gives you chances to truly contend as The Guy. Even with injuries to main players. Can't say the same for cp3, who is much more likely to randomly turn the ball over at a very inopportune time in an important game and cost you the game, despite being one of the more careful and risk averse pgs. Including in the finals.

It is what it is. He's bound to disappoint at some point with uncharacteristic moments or an injury.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[DimesandKnicks]

Chris paul!

Blake, a top 3 mvp candidate at his peak, himself, deandre, reddick, DEPTH, something the suns always lacked, and couldn't get out the 1st round . Choke after choke. You should make a thread holding cp3 accountable of anything. Uext thats the example you want to use.

Edit: couldnt get out the 2nd round. Not 1st.


Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

At least he got to the finals and came close to winning a championship...

That part

[canada_dry]

Chris paul!

Blake, a top 3 mvp candidate at his peak, himself, deandre, reddick, DEPTH, something the suns always lacked, and couldn't get out the 1st round . Choke after choke. You should make a thread holding cp3 accountable of anything. Uext thats the example you want to use.

Edit: couldnt get out the 2nd round. Not 1st.


Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

At least he got to the finals and came close to winning a championship...

That part

This part:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUeQ2hyaXMgcGF1bCB0dXJub3ZlciBuYmEgZmluYWxz

Most 2 game leads blown in nba history. Including embarrassingly in the finals. That part.

The next year vs dallas. That part.

Never got past the 2nd round as The Guy despite stacked teams. That part.

This thread should really be about cp3. But i don't really want to totally change the topic.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[DimesandKnicks]

At least he got to the finals and came close to winning a championship...

That part

This part:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUeQ2hyaXMgcGF1bCB0dXJub3ZlciBuYmEgZmluYWxz

Most 2 game leads blown in nba history. Including embarrassingly in the finals. That part.

The next year vs dallas. That part.

Never got past the 2nd round as The Guy despite stacked teams. That part.

This thread should really be about cp3. But i don't really want to totally change the topic.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Could say the same about Nash’s success on the Mav’s but I forget…Nash wasn’t being optimized

Not to mention, Paul finished fifth in MVP votes that year

[canada_dry]

That part

This part:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUeQ2hyaXMgcGF1bCB0dXJub3ZlciBuYmEgZmluYWxz

Most 2 game leads blown in nba history. Including embarrassingly in the finals. That part.

The next year vs dallas. That part.

Never got past the 2nd round as The Guy despite stacked teams. That part.

This thread should really be about cp3. But i don't really want to totally change the topic.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Could say the same about Nash’s success on the Mav’s but I forget…Nash wasn’t being optimized

Not to mention, Paul finished fifth in MVP votes that year

No, no you can't.

Also im talking about cp3s whole playoff career. You're talking about one part of nashs career, where even then, no, no you can't say the same about.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[DimesandKnicks]

This part:

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUeQ2hyaXMgcGF1bCB0dXJub3ZlciBuYmEgZmluYWxz

Most 2 game leads blown in nba history. Including embarrassingly in the finals. That part.

The next year vs dallas. That part.

Never got past the 2nd round as The Guy despite stacked teams. That part.

This thread should really be about cp3. But i don't really want to totally change the topic.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Could say the same about Nash’s success on the Mav’s but I forget…Nash wasn’t being optimized

Not to mention, Paul finished fifth in MVP votes that year

No, no you can't.

Also im talking about cp3s whole playoff career. You're talking about one part of nashs career, where even then, no, no you can't say the same about.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Paul went to the finals, as the Suns best player, almost beat the Durant Curry Warriors, unoptimized, and beat the Post Nash Mavs when he was 22. Nash couldn’t hold Chris Paul’s jock strap

Nash
Never
Made
The
Finals

Edit

[canada_dry]

Could say the same about Nash’s success on the Mav’s but I forget…Nash wasn’t being optimized

Not to mention, Paul finished fifth in MVP votes that year

No, no you can't.

Also im talking about cp3s whole playoff career. You're talking about one part of nashs career, where even then, no, no you can't say the same about.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Paul went to the finals, as the Suns best player, almost beat the Durant Curry Warriors, unoptimized, and beat the Post Nash Mavs when he was 22. Nash couldn’t hold Chris Paul’s jock strap

Nash
Never
Made
The
Finals

Edit

Believing he was the best player on that team is where you're wrong already. He missed games in the playoffs that booker carried the team to victories in and book continued being their best player all playoffs. Get off the drugs, sir.

Yea he did badly whoop a still in prime jason kidds ass in the playoffs in 08. I remember that. What does that have to do with the topic at hand though?

He also indeed did almost beat the warriors. But didn't. Why? Cuz cp3 got hurt. Like i said hes either gonna choke or get hurt. It is what it is. The next year? No kd in a tied series? Expected to win? What happened? Played like trash. Choked. 2 years in houston...One year injured. One year choked. The rockets.got the full cp3 experience in just 2 years. You hate to see it.

Nash hasnt blown the 2-0 most series leads of all time. In fact nash is the one that came back from a 3-1 deficit against the lakers un 06 with no amare. He doesn't blow 3-1 leads unlike the other guy

Nash doesnt have a encyclopedia of specific choking moments you can point to. Not on the mavs or the suns. Also in regards to injuries... It was usually his teammates getting injured. Not him. Amare in 06. Dirk in 03 on the mavs in the wcf.

So again. No. You can't say the same for nash on the mavs. Stop lying to the people .

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[DimesandKnicks]

No, no you can't.

Also im talking about cp3s whole playoff career. You're talking about one part of nashs career, where even then, no, no you can't say the same about.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Paul went to the finals, as the Suns best player, almost beat the Durant Curry Warriors, unoptimized, and beat the Post Nash Mavs when he was 22. Nash couldn’t hold Chris Paul’s jock strap

Nash
Never
Made
The
Finals

Edit

Believing he was the best player on that team is where you're wrong already. He missed games in the playoffs that booker carried the team to victories in and book continued being their best player all playoffs. Get off the drugs, sir.

Yea he did badly whoop a still in prime jason kidds ass in the playoffs in 08. I remember that. What does that have to do with the topic at hand though?

He also indeed did almost beat the warriors. But didn't. Why? Cuz cp3 got hurt. Like i said hes either gonna choke or get hurt. It is what it is. The next year? No kd in a tied series? Expected to win? What happened? Played like trash. Choked. 2 years in houston...One year injured. One year choked. The rockets.got the full cp3 experience in just 2 years. You hate to see it.

Nash hasnt blown the 2-0 most series leads of all time. In fact nash is the one that came back from a 3-1 deficit against the lakers un 06 with no amare. He doesn't blow 3-1 leads unlike the other guy

Nash doesnt have a encyclopedia of specific choking moments you can point to. Not on the mavs or the suns. Also in regards to injuries... It was usually his teammates getting injured. Not him. Amare in 06. Dirk in 03 on the mavs in the wcf.

So again. No. You can't say the same for nash on the mavs. Stop lying to the people .

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

U think Steve Nash is better than Chris Paul?

[Lost92Bricks]

Never got past the 2nd round as a #1 option. Nash gives you chances to truly contend as The Guy. Even with injuries to main players. Can't say the same for cp3, who is much more likely to randomly turn the ball over at a very inopportune time in an important game and cost you the game, despite being one of the more careful and risk averse pgs. Including in the finals.

It is what it is. He's bound to disappoint at some point with uncharacteristic moments or an injury.

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CP3 was the best player on the 2021 team specifically. Top 5 in MVP voting.

And he was the one who got them to the finals

Watch on YouTube

;pp=ygUPY2hyaXMgcGF1bCAyMDIx