OT: Djoker Becomes Undisputed GOAT

[EmpireFalls]

If sports evolved as fast as what people claim then shouldn't the new generation of stronger, faster, more skilled athletes who are entering their primes be wiping the floor with a 38 year-old legend of the game who peaked athletically in 2015?

Ha, I think that argument went out the window in around 2019, let alone now in 2025. Clearly there is much more to tennis than just height and age. This Zverev guy is just nowhere near the player Djokovic is.

I will say two things: Sinner and Alcaraz are a clear improvement on the other young guys and will almost certainly beat him this weekend.

And there is a big difference in team sport ‘evolution’ where stuff like analytics have had widespread tactical changes (i.e. teams taking many more threes) and individual sport ‘evolution’ where there’s just not much that can be changed as quickly.

[bledredwine]

undisputed my ass.

He is behind Nadal and federer.

he has only taken advantage of the other two being older and with poor health that made them miss a lot gs.

You get it.

It’s so ridiculous for anyone to prop any of Sampras, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic over each other because they all played at a similar level. Sampras had unbelievable power and aggression, Federer placement and finesse, and so on.

They all look like freaks in their own way and dominated everyone in their prime.

[Raps in 4]

LeBron and Steph are bouncing in the first and second round of the playoffs while this guy is cruising to GS semi-finals at 38.

[durden_tyler]

The absolute best ever. Unfortunately though this 38 year old version is probably going to lose in 3 or 4 to Sinner who looks a level above right now. I hope I’m wrong…

You're not, Sinner should handle him pretty easily.

Anything sinner does this tournament comes with a huge asterisk. He shouldn’t even be playing

Who cares, it's free money. LOL

[Raps in 4]

The absolute best ever. Unfortunately though this 38 year old version is probably going to lose in 3 or 4 to Sinner who looks a level above right now. I hope I’m wrong…

You're not, Sinner should handle him pretty easily.

Anything sinner does this tournament comes with a huge asterisk. He shouldn’t even be playing

He was busted for the same PED as Tatis. MLB suspended Tatis 80 games. Sinner was suspended 2 months, and they made sure the suspension didn't cause him to miss a grand slam.

It's comedy, especially since they've been much stricter with suspensions in the past. The reason he got off lightly is that tennis is scared that ratings will crater once the last of the Big-3 retires. They think they can't afford to suspend Sinner. They're probably right.

[Rust_Cohle]

Nadal was way, way, way better than anyone to ever play the game on the surface of clay.

The gap between him and #2 is bigger than any other gap (Federer to Sampras/Djokovic/Borg on grass, Djokovic to Federer/Sampras on hard court) in tennis history.

That is his GOAT claim basically.

Unfortunately the entire tennis world doesn’t revolve only on clay. And for as good as he is on clay, he’s still had an inferior H2H to Novak and hasn’t beaten him on hardcourt since 2013. Which is insane considering how many hardcourt tourneys there are. Also, by far and away most tennis players best surface is hardcourt so you’re going to find harder competition on hard court with everyone being more comfortable on that surface than clay which is only a very small part of the season.

No question what nadal has done is amazing on clay, someone will break 25 grand slams before all those Roland garros. But Djokovic is the best all rounder when we take all surfaces. To be the GOAT it can’t just be on one surface as amazing as Rafa on clay is. Same reason why Nadal himself has Novak as the GOAT.

OT but I always winced watching Nadal slide on hard courts. The joint impact took way longer than I thought it would, but eventually took its toll.

Oh yeah, he was probably the most athletic of the 3 and an absolute warrior but the beating he put his body through was insane. He squeezed every ounce he could out of his career.

[Rust_Cohle]

undisputed my ass.

He is behind Nadal and federer.

he has only taken advantage of the other two being older and with poor health that made them miss a lot gs.

You get it.

It’s so ridiculous for anyone to prop any of Sampras, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic over each other because they all played at a similar level. Sampras had unbelievable power and aggression, Federer placement and finesse, and so on.

They all look like freaks in their own way and dominated everyone in their prime.

Not at all, especially when Federer/nadal/Djokovic played in the same era. It’s not a team sport either. It’s pure nostalgia at this point picking anyone besides Novak. And as great as Sampras was, the big 3 are clearly ahead of him.

Hell even Sampras himself has Novak as the goat as does nadal:

https://www.reuters.com/lifestyle/sports/djokovics-year-end-no1-record-unlikely-be-matched-says-sampras-2021-11-16/#:~:text=Nov%2016%20(Reuters)%20%2D%20The,Novak%20Djokovic%20is%20the%20one.

[LordCovington33]

in sense of durability maybe, but in sense of peak dominace and tennis, no one will beat what nadal has done.

Djokovic easily did. His run from 2010-2024 is the greatest 14 year stretch on a variety of surfaces in tennis history. Superior H2H to nadal and Federer. Nadal hasn’t beaten Djokovic on a hardcourt since 2013…and he’s younger than him.

Novak 2011 and 2015 might be 2 of the most dominant seasons in the history of tennis.

I would say Federer’s 2006 season (92-5) and McEnroe’s 1984 season (82-3) are more dominant in recent years. But in the history of the open era, nobody can top Laver’s 1969 run where he won all four slams and is the only player to win more than 100 matches in a year (106).

[Rust_Cohle]

in sense of durability maybe, but in sense of peak dominace and tennis, no one will beat what nadal has done.

Djokovic easily did. His run from 2010-2024 is the greatest 14 year stretch on a variety of surfaces in tennis history. Superior H2H to nadal and Federer. Nadal hasn’t beaten Djokovic on a hardcourt since 2013…and he’s younger than him.

Novak 2011 and 2015 might be 2 of the most dominant seasons in the history of tennis.

I would say Federer’s 2006 season (92-5) and McEnroe’s 1984 season (82-3) are more dominant in recent years. But in the history of the open era, nobody can top Laver’s 1969 run where he won all four slams and is the only player to win more than 100 matches in a year (106).

Novak had much much harder competition than Federer 2006. Federer 2017 is underrated though.

[Raps in 4]

Unfortunately the entire tennis world doesn’t revolve only on clay. And for as good as he is on clay, he’s still had an inferior H2H to Novak and hasn’t beaten him on hardcourt since 2013. Which is insane considering how many hardcourt tourneys there are. Also, by far and away most tennis players best surface is hardcourt so you’re going to find harder competition on hard court with everyone being more comfortable on that surface than clay which is only a very small part of the season.

No question what nadal has done is amazing on clay, someone will break 25 grand slams before all those Roland garros. But Djokovic is the best all rounder when we take all surfaces. To be the GOAT it can’t just be on one surface as amazing as Rafa on clay is. Same reason why Nadal himself has Novak as the GOAT.

OT but I always winced watching Nadal slide on hard courts. The joint impact took way longer than I thought it would, but eventually took its toll.

Oh yeah, he was probably the most athletic of the 3 and an absolute warrior but the beating he put his body through was insane. He squeezed every ounce he could out of his career.

It's why he is so far behind Novak and Fed in weeks at #1. It wasn't that he was a bad hard court player. He was an excellent hard court player (he won 6 HC slams), it's that he could rarely stay healthy for a full season. His style of play is absolutely a big reason for that.

[GeorgeSears]

Nadal missed 17 slams due to injury and finished with only two less than Djokovic, who only missed 3 slams.

If Nadal's body held up, he'd have 30 by now. You can't say the same for Djokovic.

Remember the h2h was 31-29 for Djokovic despite those injuries.

[Cavsfansince84]

Nadal missed 17 slams due to injury and finished with only two less than Djokovic, who only missed 3 slams.

If Nadal's body held up, he'd have 30 by now. You can't say the same for Djokovic.

Remember the h2h was 31-29 for Djokovic despite those injuries.

I don't think missing parts of your career due to injury can be seen as a strength in a goat argument. It's harder to stay healthy.

[Raps in 4]

Nadal missed 17 slams due to injury and finished with only two less than Djokovic, who only missed 3 slams.

If Nadal's body held up, he'd have 30 by now. You can't say the same for Djokovic.

Remember the h2h was 31-29 for Djokovic despite those injuries.

What a silly argument. A big reason why Nadal was injured all the time was because of the way he played. It's a choice he made.

Second of all, Novak had a better win-rate than Nadal in every tournament except RG. Novak has a top-3 win-rate all-time in every Slam. Nadal is outside the top-5 of every slam other than RG.

Novak:
AO: #1
RG: #3
W: #3
USO: #2

Nadal:
AO: #7
RG: #1
W: #8
USO: #6

This is win-rate so number of tournaments played is irrelevant. If anything, smaller samples are favoured.

[GeorgeSears]

Nadal missed 17 slams due to injury and finished with only two less than Djokovic, who only missed 3 slams.

If Nadal's body held up, he'd have 30 by now. You can't say the same for Djokovic.

Remember the h2h was 31-29 for Djokovic despite those injuries.

I don't think missing parts of your career due to injury can be seen as a strength in a goat argument. It's harder to stay healthy.

In this case it absolutely does because Djokovic has only a two GS edge despite Nadal missing so many slams. If Nadal won half the slams he missed, he'd be at 30 now, or at the very least ahead of Djokovic. Djokovic only has 4 more ATP 1000 titles over Nadal, despite Nadal missing even more of those.

The better question is why didn't Djokovic win more titles? He was supremely healthy in his career, more than any other tennis player in history, yet he only has a 2 GS lead over Nadal and a 4 ATP 1000 lead despite all those missed tournaments.

Nadal missed 17 slams due to injury and finished with only two less than Djokovic, who only missed 3 slams.

If Nadal's body held up, he'd have 30 by now. You can't say the same for Djokovic.

Remember the h2h was 31-29 for Djokovic despite those injuries.

What a silly argument. A big reason why Nadal was injured all the time was because of the way he played. It's a choice he made.

Second of all, Novak had a better win rate than Nadal in every tournament except RG. Novak has a top-3 win-rate all time in every Slam. Nadal is outside the top-5 of every slam other than RG.

Novak:
AO: #1
RG: #3
W: #3
USO: #2

Nadal:
AO: #7
RG: #1
W: #8
USO: #6

This is win-rate so number of tournaments played is irrelevant. If anything, smaller samples are favoured.

Yes, because of the injuries. From 2006-2011 Nadal's second best surface was actually grass. He made five straight Wimbledon finals, winning two. Then his knees prevented him from playing on grass afterwards.

Also, Nadal holds the h2h record in GS matches 11-7. They're even on grass, Djokovic has the edge on hard courts, and Nadal has the edge on clay.

Also, if you want to see a tournament where he absolutely crushed Djokovic, watch the 2013 US Open final. The last two sets were probably the most lopsided I've ever seen in a tournament final.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think missing parts of your career due to injury can be seen as a strength in a goat argument. It's harder to stay healthy.

In this case it absolutely does because Djokovic has only a two GS edge despite Nadal missing so many slams. If Nadal won half the slams he missed, he'd be at 30 now, or at the very least ahead of Djokovic. Djokovic only has 4 more ATP 1000 titles over Nadal, despite Nadal missing even more of those.

The better question is why didn't Djokovic win more titles? He was supremely healthy in his career, more than any other tennis player in history, yet he only has a 2 GS lead over Nadal and a 4 ATP 1000 lead despite all those missed tournaments.

It's the same as giving MJ credit for winning 8 titles in a row if he'd wanted to. I give athletes credit for what they actually accomplished.

[lethalizer]

Yes, because of the injuries. From 2006-2011 Nadal's second best surface was actually grass. He made five straight Wimbledon finals, winning two. Then his knees prevented him from playing on grass afterwards.

Also, Nadal holds the h2h record in GS matches 11-7. They're even on grass, Djokovic has the edge on hard courts, and Nadal has the edge on clay.

They're not even on grass, Djokovic has a 2-1 lead over him on Wimbledon.

The only reason they only played 3 matches on that surface was Nadal getting burnt out by the clay season and him not really being an elite grass court player compared to his all time status.

Meanwhile Djokovic almost always advanced in Nadal's best surface to face him there.

As far as destruction goes, I don't think you'll ever see anyone top the 2019 AO when it comes to that. Djokovic absolutely tore Nadal up in that final. Mind you, Nadal didn't even drop a set during that tournament before reaching the final.

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think missing parts of your career due to injury can be seen as a strength in a goat argument. It's harder to stay healthy.

In this case it absolutely does because Djokovic has only a two GS edge despite Nadal missing so many slams. If Nadal won half the slams he missed, he'd be at 30 now, or at the very least ahead of Djokovic. Djokovic only has 4 more ATP 1000 titles over Nadal, despite Nadal missing even more of those.

The better question is why didn't Djokovic win more titles? He was supremely healthy in his career, more than any other tennis player in history, yet he only has a 2 GS lead over Nadal and a 4 ATP 1000 lead despite all those missed tournaments.

It's the same as giving MJ credit for winning 8 titles in a row if he'd wanted to. I give athletes credit for what they actually accomplished. Nadal is an atg in his sport but not the goat imo.

[Sgt Major]

GOAT

[BelgradeNugget]

Nadal missed 17 slams due to injury and finished with only two less than Djokovic, who only missed 3 slams.

If Nadal's body held up, he'd have 30 by now. You can't say the same for Djokovic.

Remember the h2h was 31-29 for Djokovic despite those injuries.

When they played against each other they were both healthy.
So if you want to make an argument Nadal didn't win more trophies because he was injured more ok, but when he was healthy and played Djokovic, Novak had better h2h resume.

[BelgradeNugget]

undisputed my ass.

He is behind Nadal and federer.

he has only taken advantage of the other two being older and with poor health that made them miss a lot gs.

You get it.

It’s so ridiculous for anyone to prop any of Sampras, Federer, Nadal and Djokovic over each other because they all played at a similar level. Sampras had unbelievable power and aggression, Federer placement and finesse, and so on.

They all look like freaks in their own way and dominated everyone in their prime.

Yes, I also hate when someone puts Jordan above Drexler, Dominique Wilkins...
Whoever watched them play could see how close they are.
And Nick could fly too.
Now we have people placing so much on wins in team sport. If only it was individual sport and they played in the same era so we could see by simpe numbers, who win more h2h matches, thropys, ect there would be no argument...