The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[BigGargamel]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

It's gonna sound like I defend this guy no matter what, because he's on my favorite team. But I think a lot of the reason he doesn't really challenge as a defender is because he doesn't want to get into foul trouble. I'd rather him give up a few uncontested buckets a game than miss 12 minutes because he racked up fouls. He's too important on the offensive end. It's on the front office to surround him with a big defender or two, something they haven't done.

He's not a shot blocker anyway, never has been or will be. His ability to play passing lanes and do what he can is impressive. Not to mention his defensive rebounding, which people never bring into account when discussing defense.

He'll never be a "good" or even average defender, but he's not a black hole on that side of the ball like many claim.

[QPR]

So, with respect to Jokic's defense...

He IS 6th in the league in deflections per game and 12th in DRB%.

He isn't much of a volume shot contester around the rim, for sure, but he does a whole pile of stuff defensively which people appear not to be discussing here. He isn't a high-end defender, that much is clear, but out and out bad seems a little off-base.

But he's not as good as players who play 15mpg and whose only task is protecting the rim with their six fouls, so he's a poor defender

[Peregrine01]

So, with respect to Jokic's defense...

He IS 6th in the league in deflections per game and 12th in DRB%.

He isn't much of a volume shot contester around the rim, for sure, but he does a whole pile of stuff defensively which people appear not to be discussing here. He isn't a high-end defender, that much is clear, but out and out bad seems a little off-base.

But he's not as good as players who play 15mpg and whose only task is protecting the rim with their six fouls, so he's a poor defender

If people crying about his defense understand how bad the Nuggets are whenever he sits or how massive his workload is, they might begin to understand why he takes plays off on defense - especially during the regular season. I'm sure the Nuggets' coaching staff is telling him to be calculated about this as well.

The nature of basketball is for stars to optimize for offense to the detriment of defense. Even Giannis has been doing this over the last 5 years.

[TunaFish]

Jokic is a slow point guard playing center. Of course he would be 4th in the NBA in steals, just like a point guard.

And yes he has some help, Murray, MPJ, Gordon and Braun are no slouches.

[scrabbarista]

I assume someone has already posted this but just in case it hasn't, here's their last 10 games:

CHI
NYK
PHI
CHA (CLT?)
NOP
NOP
ORL
PHO
POR
POR

Only the Knicks, who they lost to, are guaranteed a playoff spot right now (ORL and CHI are in the playin too, no one else is). Except for New York, none of these teams have a positive on-off differential either.

Credit to the Nuggets for taking care of business but using this weak stretch as an indicator of anything is stupid.

Tbf, they did win eight in a row and their last six by more than 19 points per game.

That's a bit more than "taking care of business!" Nor is it an "indicator of nothing."

But yes, you can't definitively say they're ready for the good teams until they actually play some good teams.

Still, the signs have been very positive lately.

Eight in a row against a soft schedule and their last six with 4 games against NOP/POR. It's really not that impressive.

A 19 point differential. Agree to disagree.

[TunaFish]

Tbf, they did win eight in a row and their last six by more than 19 points per game.

That's a bit more than "taking care of business!" Nor is it an "indicator of nothing."

But yes, you can't definitively say they're ready for the good teams until they actually play some good teams.

Still, the signs have been very positive lately.

Eight in a row against a soft schedule and their last six with 4 games against NOP/POR. It's really not that impressive.

A 19 point differential. Agree to disagree.

Injuries have been a factor with Murray, Gordon, MPJ, Westbrook and Watson all missing time. A lot of the bench has stepped up in Stawther, Nnaji and Pickett, which helped offset the number of starters that have been out.

[Alatan]

Anyone can be part of a good team defense if every one around them is a good defender. The problem with Jokic being a bad defender is that it is much easier to build a good team defense around a center who can defend than everywhere else.

Yeah, you can build a good defense around anyone, but you cant build a good offense around anyone. And Jokic alone guarantees you a good offense while being able to be a neutral to above average defender in a vacuum. Failing to build a good defense around Jokic is Denvers FOs fault.
You and posters like you still pretend that Jokic is some horrible, unplayable defender that teams cant possibly build around to compete while in reality the man won a championship with a bunch of clowns next to him.

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

That is not true, and even if it was true, Jokic brings enough offensively that he can step out of the court on defense and people should still expect the rest of the team to be better because they are doing jack **** on offense without him. In other words, you cant expect a single player to carry both your offense and defense. Most of Jokics teammates are awful defensively to the point they would make Wembenyama look questionable. If they were offensively talented like Curry then you could let it slide and say, well maybe its redundant to have so many good offensive player that cant play great defense and maybe it would be easier to replace Jokic with a rim running, rim protector. But even then it would be a terrible idea because Jokic with Curry would outgun anyone in history.

So again, if you are one of those people that thinks that no team can win a championship without a good rim protector, well you have literally been disproven.

[Alatan]

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

Ah the old "just run the Pickle Role against Jokic" line. Opponents are scoring 0.78 Points on every pick and roll they run against Jokic this year which is pretty low. https://www.nba.com/stats/players/ball-handler?TypeGrouping=defensive&dir=D&sort=POSS

That’s just a blanket stat with zero context. Watch when teams actually target him in the pick & roll. GS did it in 2022, and Edward’s did it in the playoffs last year.

Yes, lets focus our analysis on the series where Jokic played alongside hall of famers such as Austin Rivers (out of the league), Will Barton (out of the league), Facundo Campazzo (out of the league), Jef Green (almost out of the league), Jamychal Green (out of the league), Monte Morris (bench player), Bones Hyland (out of the league), Bryan Forbes (out of the league), Vlatko Cancar (almost out of the league)and the corpse of DeMarcus Cousins (out of the league). His only other teammated being Aron Gordon.
And i dont know why have you selected the last playoffs where the problem was offense because Murray was a pile of stinking garbage that kept on trying to shoot himself out of the slump and ended up shooting Denver in both feet.

[michaelm]

Kat being only slightly bette than Wemby demonstates that stats like these aer trash. KAT is the worst pick and roll defender I've ever seen

I mean...it's a stat like points per game. It just is what it is. We all know there's more context to points per game, such as TS%, turnovers, teams, offensive system, pace. But points per game is what it is. It's a fact. Just like these are...with some minor issues, just what they are.

No. It’s not. Ppg is a stat reflecting how many points that player scored. He’s FG reflects how many shots he made versus took. You combine this with the context with how good or bad his team is to measure how good of an offensive player he actually is. With a defensive stat like this, the context is soo much more important. A pick and roll is a play defensively where the entire defense has to be on a string. So that metric could reflect how good a PNT defender he is, or it can reflect how good his team is at defending the pick and roll.

If his team is good at defending the pick and roll then it doesn't matter as much if he isn't.

I am actually on the fence about his defensive play, it looked like him being targeted defensively as GSW did in the 2022 play-offs was an insuperable obstacle for his team, didn't so much in 2023 when I had thought it might bring Denver undone again based on 2022. Everything else he does including defensive stuff other than rim protection and defending the pick and roll as has been said, and at least putting in effort on defense as not all offensive superstars do, may still allow his team to be a winning team. As others have also said Denver seemed to come up with a team which could win in 2023, then inexplicably didn't keep the team together and particularly didn't keep the defensive players he needs around him.

Murray playing at such an elite level was obviously a very important ingredient in the winning of the 2023 title, Jokic like everyone else but perhaps even more so than some can't do it all on his own, and someone, probably Murray, will need to do something similar again if they are to contend this season. If Murray can deliver like that again it will confirm him to be someone who can be a highly elite player in the play-offs, not a bad thing to be imo, with health as with many other players appearing to be a major issue. But to the OP's question a healthy Murray playing as he did in the 2023 play-offs is definitely help of high quality. If Jokic needs defensive help I don't see why it can't be given to him however.

[michaelm]

Jokic is an athletically limited defender in the sense that he cant protect the rim and is cooked in space like almost every big is, but he is great in other aspects of defense, such as rebounding, post defense, deflections, disrupting passing lanes, defensive awareness and coordination, etc. So if you surround him with good defenders he becomes a very good defender. How ever you rank him, be it neutral, above average or below average, he is a much better defender than either Murray or MPJ and probably better that the overrated defensive stopper AG.

The season where they had KCP to help him defend the PnR with Braun and Brown helping on the wing Denver had a very good playoff defense and they won a championship. If Denver FO wasnt a godforsaken center for the mentally challenged, they could have surrounded Jokic with a few defensive pieces and ONE CONSISTENT shot creator and they would have been a dynasty.

But why would they do that when they can max out two decrepit chukers and trade everything they got for a bunch of failed project players nobody else wanted anyway.

If he is a transcendent offensive talent and a team containing him can be good defensively then he doesn’t need to be a traditional defensive center. The year they won he seemed to have enough good defenders around him, and my impression from afar is what you are saying, that Denver haven’t done a great job putting players around him.

What a shame for his legacy. Apparently he can't build a team organically like Jordan and Kobe.

As is mostly the case with you pretty much a rhetorical question, but your point is ?.

If it is that a talented player can be hampered by an incompetent organisation, as with LeBron at the Cavs the first time, sure absolutely no doubt this is the case. If it is that constructing a team around an elite player competently to maximise team outcomes is somehow unfair or detracts from the player concerned not so much, only imo of course.

[Big J]

Yeah, you can build a good defense around anyone, but you cant build a good offense around anyone. And Jokic alone guarantees you a good offense while being able to be a neutral to above average defender in a vacuum. Failing to build a good defense around Jokic is Denvers FOs fault.
You and posters like you still pretend that Jokic is some horrible, unplayable defender that teams cant possibly build around to compete while in reality the man won a championship with a bunch of clowns next to him.

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

That is not true, and even if it was true, Jokic brings enough offensively that he can step out of the court on defense and people should still expect the rest of the team to be better because they are doing jack **** on offense without him. In other words, you cant expect a single player to carry both your offense and defense. Most of Jokics teammates are awful defensively to the point they would make Wembenyama look questionable. If they were offensively talented like Curry then you could let it slide and say, well maybe its redundant to have so many good offensive player that cant play great defense and maybe it would be easier to replace Jokic with a rim running, rim protector. But even then it would be a terrible idea because Jokic with Curry would outgun anyone in history.

So again, if you are one of those people that thinks that no team can win a championship without a good rim protector, well you have literally been disproven.

Murray is jack **** on offense without him? Murray put up All NBA numbers on their only title run, and he just put up a damn double nickel. You can't score 55 solely from getting spot up 3s off of Jokic passes.

[Los_29]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

He isn't bad...you're just wrong. RIP

I think he played a lot of bad defense this year.
By design, as he's conservibg energy and avoiding fouls.
It's different when he goes for it.

[RRR3]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

[Big J]

So, with respect to Jokic's defense...

He IS 6th in the league in deflections per game and 12th in DRB%.

He isn't much of a volume shot contester around the rim, for sure, but he does a whole pile of stuff defensively which people appear not to be discussing here. He isn't a high-end defender, that much is clear, but out and out bad seems a little off-base.

But he's not as good as players who play 15mpg and whose only task is protecting the rim with their six fouls, so he's a poor defender

If people crying about his defense understand how bad the Nuggets are whenever he sits or how massive his workload is, they might begin to understand why he takes plays off on defense - especially during the regular season. I'm sure the Nuggets' coaching staff is telling him to be calculated about this as well.

The nature of basketball is for stars to optimize for offense to the detriment of defense. Even Giannis has been doing this over the last 5 years.

Some stars play both ends of the floor. MJ is a good example of this.

[Big J]

Jokic is the best player in the world but anyone who has seen him play this year should accept that he has been a bad defender all season.

I thought that everyone agreed that defensive stats for individuals don't mean much but I see people using them in this thread. You can't judge individual defense unless you watch the game. There is no other way to do it.

He isn't bad...you're just wrong. RIP

I think he played a lot of bad defense this year.
By design, as he's conservibg energy and avoiding fouls.
It's different when he goes for it.

Yet he’s the only one who gets to use those excuses. Anyone else who tries that kind of stuff is just called a traffic cone.

[Alatan]

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

That is not true, and even if it was true, Jokic brings enough offensively that he can step out of the court on defense and people should still expect the rest of the team to be better because they are doing jack **** on offense without him. In other words, you cant expect a single player to carry both your offense and defense. Most of Jokics teammates are awful defensively to the point they would make Wembenyama look questionable. If they were offensively talented like Curry then you could let it slide and say, well maybe its redundant to have so many good offensive player that cant play great defense and maybe it would be easier to replace Jokic with a rim running, rim protector. But even then it would be a terrible idea because Jokic with Curry would outgun anyone in history.

So again, if you are one of those people that thinks that no team can win a championship without a good rim protector, well you have literally been disproven.

Murray is jack **** on offense without him? Murray put up All NBA numbers on their only title run, and he just put up a damn double nickel. You can't score 55 solely from getting spot up 3s off of Jokic passes.

We also seen him drow tripple singles in the Olympic games. Dude benefits from Jokics gravity more than anyone in the league. Without Jokic Murray is Jamal Crawford 2.0

[QPR]

Jokic is not a neutral or above average defender in any sense. He’s a poor defender who is easily exposed by running a simple high ball pick and roll. If he’s forced to switch out on the perimeter he’s cooked every time. Calling his teammates traffic cones while pretending he is any better than them on that end is a complete double standard.

That is not true, and even if it was true, Jokic brings enough offensively that he can step out of the court on defense and people should still expect the rest of the team to be better because they are doing jack **** on offense without him. In other words, you cant expect a single player to carry both your offense and defense. Most of Jokics teammates are awful defensively to the point they would make Wembenyama look questionable. If they were offensively talented like Curry then you could let it slide and say, well maybe its redundant to have so many good offensive player that cant play great defense and maybe it would be easier to replace Jokic with a rim running, rim protector. But even then it would be a terrible idea because Jokic with Curry would outgun anyone in history.

So again, if you are one of those people that thinks that no team can win a championship without a good rim protector, well you have literally been disproven.

Murray is jack **** on offense without him? Murray put up All NBA numbers on their only title run, and he just put up a damn double nickel. You can't score 55 solely from getting spot up 3s off of Jokic passes.

He's a very gifted offensive player who is capable of big nights when he gets hot. He's also got very questionable IQ and shot selection and is wildly inconsistent, hence a career scoring average of 18ppg and a career high season of 21ppg despite playing his whole career as a lead guard. He is not someone you can ever trust to carry an offense consistently.

No doubt he can be devastating on his day. Consistency is the problem (and durability), not talent.

[michaelm]

So, with respect to Jokic's defense...

He IS 6th in the league in deflections per game and 12th in DRB%.

He isn't much of a volume shot contester around the rim, for sure, but he does a whole pile of stuff defensively which people appear not to be discussing here. He isn't a high-end defender, that much is clear, but out and out bad seems a little off-base.

But he's not as good as players who play 15mpg and whose only task is protecting the rim with their six fouls, so he's a poor defender

If people crying about his defense understand how bad the Nuggets are whenever he sits or how massive his workload is, they might begin to understand why he takes plays off on defense - especially during the regular season. I'm sure the Nuggets' coaching staff is telling him to be calculated about this as well.

The nature of basketball is for stars to optimize for offense to the detriment of defense. Even Giannis has been doing this over the last 5 years.

And if he fouls out it is over for the team.

[Los_29]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.