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Latrell wrote:
We don't hate you. We hate your GM.
And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.
Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.
Sixersftw wrote:Latrell wrote:
We don't hate you. We hate your GM.
And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.
Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.
I still think this is the silliest argument. A lot of teams tank and just because you do it blatantly makes no difference. If it's a wrong it's a wrong.
bwgood77 wrote:Well, if you are only going by the championship metric, then Philly would have the 2-0 advantage, though of course those were 30+ years ago. However, the Suns have been much more of a winning franchise overall, having won over 55% of their games, where the Sixers have been about a 500 team.
It still doesn't change the fact that the last time Philly had as good of a record as the Suns did just last year, was in 2002-03.
#2 - That's a ridiculous question. You want to win regular season games to get into the playoffs. The Suns would have been seeded higher than the Sixers had they had the record they had last year in the east, the last two times the Sixers made the playoffs.
Getting to the playoffs a few years back for the Sixers was great, I suppose, but I don't know if bragging about getting the 7th or 8th seed in the east makes sense, when those were simply worse teams than last year's Suns.
gaspar wrote:Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.
Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)
CoreyGallagher wrote:I hope the Cavs don't take Embiid because then we'll take Embiid.
bondom34 wrote:JDizzel3000 wrote:bondom34 wrote:1. I think so too, but they've still got 2 very good core players maybe 3 if Rubio counts. Wiggins/KAT/Rubio? Could be good, maybe not, though more likely they are.
2. Again, offense is half the game. I never said what you're saying I did. I said overall they've shown similar production. Offense + defense.
3. Well, Phoenix has a pretty good looking rookie too, so there's that as well.
4. I take CP3, Curry, Westbrook, Irving, Wall all over him for sure. He's close to Lillard/Conley/Lowry/Teague/Dragic. One of the best defensive PGs in the game and a crazy athlete, doesn't put up eye popping box score stats but is capable of it at times, he's certainly in the mix.
5. They got Chandler? And what targets did Philly whiff on? They were a bit worse off huh?
6. Knight got hurt....though it doesn't seem you paid much actual attention to the Suns, you just enjoy critiquing them.
7. Future picks can still be used as current currency. Hence "why does it matter". Those picks are just as valuable as any other, as you said they can be traded. You can use that asset before 5 years from now.
8. As a fan I'd be miserable watching a team with very little cohesiveness win 25 games a year and prior to that be a treadmill level team the years before.
1.Sounds like you're on the fence there
2.like I said ..I don't really see a discernible difference in offensive production ..as I illustrated with the post ASG stats ..I do however see on in regards to Noel's defensive impact
3.You talking about Booker? I like him ..wouldn't put him in the OK4 KAT tier tho ..
4. Like I said ...I'll take all those guys over Bledsoe (and I like Bledsoe a lot actually)
5. What players did the 6ers target? How were they a bit worse off if their objective was never to chase free agents?I mean where do you get this idea that a team is obligated to chase after the biggest name in free agency year in year out? That's a very strange point that your attempting to make ...the 6ers are developing the young talent not bringing in 33 year old vets to get in the way of that young talent ...more interesting may be the fact the Suns felt the need to go get Chandler in th first place .... That doesn't sound like a team too confident in their young big man if you ask me ...
6.He played terrible while he was there ...am I supposed to just ignore that as its convenient to your argument? He was hurt ok ....annnnddd???
at the most if you wanted to be objective we would say who knows what that back court duo will look like ...but that's not what you've been saying ..you're saying that with that backcourt combo they're playoff contenders ...which is interesting because nothing from them playing together last year would support that claim
7. Sure future picks can be used as current currency ...but saying that those picks are just as valuable as the 6ers top 3 pick in next years draft is fallacious.... You don't know what that pick is or where it will be ...if I'm a prospective trade partner your not convincing me that a pick down the road in 5 years holds the same value as a top 3 pick next season ...that's just ....silly ....furthermore taking the trade option off the table ...how do you consider a pick that's 5 years down the road just as valuable to the CURRENT rebuilding of the Suns team as the 4 first round picks the sixers own next season? Those will be converted into 4 players that will help the sixers get better in the now ... How does a 2021 pick help the Suns get better in the now unless it's used as trade bait?
8.Again ..5 straight years of missing the playoffs and a team that just regressed last season would not only make me feel miserable ... i'd be frightened
1. Yeah, said Minny was close.
2. I do.
3. Yep, Booker. And Philly has exactly zero guards so honestly that's an issue.
4. I wouldn't.
5. The Sixers couldn't target anyone. That's a problem when nobody cares enough to talk to you and seemingly many players don't consider them at all.
6. Knight was injured. I don't know what can even be said.
7. The Sixers got a top 3 pick already? And who knows who the Sixers are drafting? Who knows where guys fall next year in the draft?
8. Why focus on 5 years when if you expand it a few more it kills your argument? Oh, wait...
CoreyGallagher wrote:gaspar wrote:Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.
Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)
NBA Reference lists it by a per game basis and they also have Noel's Offensive Rating 105, Defensive Rating 98, slight margin. Len ORtg 93, Drtg 103.
Switch to Advanced Game Log and you can select games in bulk.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noelne01/gamelog/2015/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lenal01/gamelog/2015/
EricAnderson wrote:http://grantland.com/the-triangle/a-tale-of-two-cities-phoenix-and-philly-plot-different-courses-to-contention/
I think when you're teams like the Suns and Sixers you have to look to the draft for stars because they're more then likely not coming to you in free agency
“I am not a real patient person,” Sarver says. “You don’t have the kind of success that allows you to buy an NBA team by being a patient person in business. But it’s just a personality trait, and you try not to make decisions based on that.”
Latrell wrote:Philly_3 wrote:How did this thread turn into Phoenix vs Philly?ugh!
I guess we didn't have enough people who hate us already.
We don't hate you. We hate your GM.
And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.
Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.
JDizzel3000 wrote:
At this point your talking in circles lol ....the sixers are not building thru free agency because the have clearly chose to develop they the draft ...brandon knight was trash when he played for the team ...the sixers in all like hood will get a top 3 pick after all if they don't won't that mean they are winning game thus this whole argument would be for nothing anyways? Lol
Why stop at 5 years?? we would only then start talking about the 6ers championships in comparison to the Suns .....uhhhhh ...their uhhhh...Ohhh that's right they haven't done that .... "But but but ....we gotta put a time cap on anything before the year 2002 because my argument would fall apart if we don't"...lol
MyUniBroDavis wrote: he was like YALL PEOPLE WHO DOUBT ME WILL SEE YALLS STATS ARE WRONG I HAVE THE BIG BRAIN PLAYS MUCHO NASTY BIG BRAIN BIG CHUNGUS BRAIN YOU BOYS ON UR BBALL REFERENCE NO UNDERSTANDO
Latrell wrote:JDizzel3000 wrote:bondom34 wrote:OK. This is a simple point that honestly can't even get over your head...
The Suns, by virtue of winning, having a young roster, cap space, and assets, can be seen by free agents as somewhere to be considered to go to. The Sixers last major signing was in 2008. The Suns just signed Tyson Chandler and nearly got Aldridge (they didn't get him, but was he giving Philly a meeting I missed?). You add one top free agent to that team and they're likely top 4 in the west. That's a contender. Philly won't be able to do that because no free agent will even look at them until they're respectable which is at least 3 years off. So you're hoping to get a few good young players good enough to get a free agent to go there in 3 years. The Suns are through the first part, on to the second.
Again you are touting failure .....it's a bizarre point ...you continue to say that they almost got LMA ...this isn't horseshoes bro ...almost has 0 value none nada nothing ....yet you continue to run with this point as if it means something ...it doesn't ....how many times do you have to watch them fail to get their target before you realize the tactic isn't working? We all sat here and criticized and laughed at the lakers for swinging and missing the past two seasons on their fa targets yet were supposed to laud the Suns ....stop it ...this is ridiculous
The sixers are not trying to build the free agency so your point of contention here is really irrelevant
But striking out on Aldridge does have value. Striking out is better than having no at-bat at all. Am I wrong?
gaspar wrote:CoreyGallagher wrote:gaspar wrote:Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.
Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)
NBA Reference lists it by a per game basis and they also have Noel's Offensive Rating 105, Defensive Rating 98, slight margin. Len ORtg 93, Drtg 103.
Switch to Advanced Game Log and you can select games in bulk.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/noelne01/gamelog/2015/
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lenal01/gamelog/2015/
Sorry, but Offensive and Defensive Rating from Basketball Reference is pretty much useless. It's an estimated number based on boxscore stats. NBA.com is much, MUCH more reliable. It actually shows what kind of impact a player has when he's on the court.
Latrell wrote:Sixersftw wrote:Latrell wrote:
We don't hate you. We hate your GM.
And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.
Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.
I still think this is the silliest argument. A lot of teams tank and just because you do it blatantly makes no difference. If it's a wrong it's a wrong.
It makes a big difference on how players perceive your team though.
HartfordWhalers wrote:gaspar wrote:HartfordWhalers wrote:
I wouldn't really focus on doing the work for an on-off on a monthly basis when it is going to be noisy as is.
But for the post all star break period:
Phx was 3.7 PP round trip possession better with Len than without him.
Philly was 3.8 PP round trip possession better with Noel than without him.
And each team had similar margins in general, with Phx getting outscored by 4.9 points per game, while Philly was by 5.8.
Where it gets interesting is if you look at something like the Oratings and Dratings of the players computed for that time.
Len: 93.4 Orating, 102.4 Drating -9.0 difference
Noel: 105.7 Orating, 96.5 Drating + 9.2 difference
Links for those that need em:
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Phoenix-Suns/23/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
http://basketball.realgm.com/nba/teams/Philadelphia-Sixers/22/stats/2015/Advanced_Stats/Qualified/ediff/All/desc/1/Post-All-Star_Game
A really detailed analysis of the two players should probably fit better on teh player comparison board, but it is worth noting that when just lumping this year together and blindly comparing them that the factors of age/experience/learning curve/teammates should be accounted for.
Noel is a full year younger, and didn't get the 400 minute burn last year that Len did. And both players had awful scoring stats in their first 400 minutes in the league. {Noel's could arguably have been made worse by not playing a meaningful game in over a year and a half.}
But taking just this years stats and comparing them eliminates the first awkward adjustment period for Len and doesn't for Noel.
Similarly to above if you look at the splits an focus on that offense of Len's
Len had a 44.5% TS% post all star game (8.5 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Noel had a 52.8% TS% post all star game (14.4 points per 36 pace adjusted)
Around the same time there were serious pg changes for both teams. And both players score off others to similar amounts:
Len: 66.9% assisted baskets
Noel: 67.2% assisted baskets
Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.
Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)
And I'm not sure why are you focusing on the post ASG numbers instead of the bigger sample size (full season), especially considering that Len missed some time during that stretch and played significantly less minutes than Noel.
I wrote why. It is quoted above.
gaspar wrote:HartfordWhalers wrote:gaspar wrote:
Well, NBA.com shows totally different numbers than RealGM. With all due respect for RealGM, but I trust NBA.com much more.
Post all-star game:
Len 98.4 OffRtg, 101.0 DefRtg, -2.6 NetRtg (Suns -5.0)
Noel 94.5 OffRtg, 100.5 DefRtg, -6.0 NetRtg (Philly -6.9)
And I'm not sure why are you focusing on the post ASG numbers instead of the bigger sample size (full season), especially considering that Len missed some time during that stretch and played significantly less minutes than Noel.
I wrote why. It is quoted above.
Perhaps it makes sense to use Noel's post ASG numbers, but I see no reason to apply the same logic to Len. His adjustment period was last year. And when comparing their offensive production you should also notice big difference in USG%.
bondom34 wrote:JDizzel3000 wrote:
At this point your talking in circles lol ....the sixers are not building thru free agency because the have clearly chose to develop thru the draft ...brandon knight was trash when he played for the team ...the sixers in all like hood will get a top 3 pick after all if they don't won't that mean they are winning game thus this whole argument would be for nothing anyways? Lol
Why stop at 5 years?? we would only then start talking about the 6ers championships in comparison to the Suns .....uhhhhh ...their uhhhh...Ohhh that's right they haven't done that .... "But but but ....we gotta put a time cap on anything before the year 2002 because my argument would fall apart if we don't"...lol
I'm saying why stop at 5 years ago and count 30 years ago, but nothing between matters. The Sixers haven't won in 30 years. Neither have the Suns. My argument hasn't fallen apart and you're just running around in circles here. Yeah, Philly's building through the draft. Its gonna take forever and by then they likely lose some guys they picked and are alienated by free agents who won't want to go there. Phoenix is a step ahead and hasn't alienated anyone. lol back at ya. And the entire first paragraph you just wrote makes no sense at all, it is literally giberish.
-At this point your talking in circles lol
-the sixers are not building thru free agency as they have clearly chose to develop thru the draft
-brandon knight was trash when he played for the Suns regardless of your excuses
-The sixers in all likelihood will get a top 3 pick after all if they don't get a high pick wont that mean the team is winning games and this whole argument over them sucking year in and year out would be for nothing anyways? Lol
@ alienating people that you aren't attempting to target .....this point you're attempting literally makes 0 sense @ the Suns being "a step ahead" because they haven't alienated players ...yet the only result of their actions yielded a 33 year old road block to developing their young talent ....Woah!!! what a catch ....great move by the Suns ...I can see Chandler taking them to the next level no doubt!!HartfordWhalers wrote:gaspar wrote:HartfordWhalers wrote:
I wrote why. It is quoted above.
Perhaps it makes sense to use Noel's post ASG numbers, but I see no reason to apply the same logic to Len. His adjustment period was last year. And when comparing their offensive production you should also notice big difference in USG%.
I'm not suggesting throwing away data. Ever.
But Len's numbers post all star game are interesting because both bigs were assisted on a similar percentage of their shots (see above it is almost identical. )
When not paired with highly successful guards, Len's offense was horrific.
That is pretty informative, especially when wondering what he would have sone with Philly's pgs at season start, or what Noel might have done with Dragic and IT.
I will link it later, but Noel's numbers with Ish Smith dwarf gis general post all star numbers.
All of which circles back to, for big men that create a similar amount of their own offense, what is the teammate effect on the numbers.
gaspar wrote:HartfordWhalers wrote:gaspar wrote:
Perhaps it makes sense to use Noel's post ASG numbers, but I see no reason to apply the same logic to Len. His adjustment period was last year. And when comparing their offensive production you should also notice big difference in USG%.
I'm not suggesting throwing away data. Ever.
But Len's numbers post all star game are interesting because both bigs were assisted on a similar percentage of their shots (see above it is almost identical. )
When not paired with highly successful guards, Len's offense was horrific.
That is pretty informative, especially when wondering what he would have sone with Philly's pgs at season start, or what Noel might have done with Dragic and IT.
I will link it later, but Noel's numbers with Ish Smith dwarf gis general post all star numbers.
All of which circles back to, for big men that create a similar amount of their own offense, what is the teammate effect on the numbers.
For me it looks like you are just manipulating the stats to prove a point.
And BTW, Dragic is really bad at setting up bigs with no 3-point range. Last season Goran assisted Len for the first time in the 16th game of the year. Gerald fricking Green had 7 assists to Len during that period.
HartfordWhalers wrote:gaspar wrote:HartfordWhalers wrote:
I'm not suggesting throwing away data. Ever.
But Len's numbers post all star game are interesting because both bigs were assisted on a similar percentage of their shots (see above it is almost identical. )
When not paired with highly successful guards, Len's offense was horrific.
That is pretty informative, especially when wondering what he would have sone with Philly's pgs at season start, or what Noel might have done with Dragic and IT.
I will link it later, but Noel's numbers with Ish Smith dwarf gis general post all star numbers.
All of which circles back to, for big men that create a similar amount of their own offense, what is the teammate effect on the numbers.
For me it looks like you are just manipulating the stats to prove a point.
And BTW, Dragic is really bad at setting up bigs with no 3-point range. Last season Goran assisted Len for the first time in the 16th game of the year. Gerald fricking Green had 7 assists to Len during that period.
Yeah, I really don't think an all star game split is manipulating stats. Surely you have seen that before? If not it is fairly common....
Philly_3 wrote:Latrell wrote:Philly_3 wrote:How did this thread turn into Phoenix vs Philly?
I guess we didn't have enough people who hate us already.
We don't hate you. We hate your GM.
And it's not because fans of other teams are 'threatened' by your tanking. Its because your doing it so blatantly its offensive to the league and game of basketball.
Its within the rules though, so more power to ya I guess.
is it really that offensive? So just because the FO isn't shy about what they are doing its a problem?
So if the Sixers tanked but did it less blatantly would everything be ok?