2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[RightToCensor]

ESPN also ignored Westbrook's Andray Blache-like attempt to secure a triple double while down 20 late in the fourth.

[Ballerhogger]

What?!? What a joke of a award if he does. Its not his fault, ridiciulous. . Harden should win. If that how espn is going be about it. I dont care about the award any more.

[Kevin Johnson]

Harden is easily the MVP to me. Westbrook is having a historic year, but Harden's team is better and is only 2 rebounds per game short of a triple double average himself. Does that make me a Morey mole?

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.

When was the last time a player on a < 50 win team won MVP?

Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

[D.Brasco]

The problem for James Harden is he's the Hillary Clinton of the MVP race. On paper he should win but not enough people actually like the guy.

[DarkAzcura]

Harden is easily the MVP to me. Westbrook is having a historic year, but Harden's team is better and is only 2 rebounds per game short of a triple double average himself. Does that make me a Morey mole?

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.

When was the last time a player on a < 50 win team won MVP?

Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Irony? I'm not really sure you know what that means..I asked when the last time it happened was..alluding that it was highly uncommon..and you just proved my point considering it has been 35 years.

Anyway. Your first paragraph is complete hindsight for the general public. Maybe you felt that way as a Suns fan who knows MDA pretty well, but 80% of people thought MDA was a joke and shell of his former self and that Harden was a loser malcontent that only cared about his numbers. No one thought (at large) Houston would be this good. Again, look back at the season predictions by most media members. Most had OKC above Houston, and not many were calling MDA an offensive genius who was going to completely change the way Harden played. Usually preseason predictions and the element of surprise play a role in these awards, and it does seem like everyone has gone backwards and flipped the script saying 'well duh Houston is so good because of shooters and MDA.' Again not many people were saying this at all.

EDIT: just a quick search shows 538, bleacherreport, and CBS all had OKC finishing above Houston this season. Again..a lot of revisionist history in your first paragraph if you felt that was the general consensus around the league.

[gmoney411]

Harden is easily the MVP to me. Westbrook is having a historic year, but Harden's team is better and is only 2 rebounds per game short of a triple double average himself. Does that make me a Morey mole?

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.

When was the last time a player on a < 50 win team won MVP?

Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

[Shock Defeat]

Harden is easily the MVP to me. Westbrook is having a historic year, but Harden's team is better and is only 2 rebounds per game short of a triple double average himself. Does that make me a Morey mole?

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.

When was the last time a player on a < 50 win team won MVP?

Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Westbrooks record breaking usage does more for his stats than Dantoni's system does to Harden. If Harden got to dominate the ball as much as Russell does, he would be putting up more ridiculous numbers.

[Shock Defeat]

The inconsistency in the arguments of this thread is what bothers Rockets fans. Historically the award has been given to players from a Top seed with significant consideration to team records, and now people are discrediting Harden because he plays for MDA or that he has a better team (weren't the Rockets supposed to be a lottery team this year?) or because he's averaging 2 RPG fewer than Westbrook? Let's not act like the Rockets fans are the only villains here. The irrational hate against Harden and the Rockets is clearly strong.

There is no inconsistency because there is no set criteria. The only consistent criteria would either reward Curry another MVP (best player on best team) or Westbrook (best individual season statistically). Anything in between is contrived and will be whimsical.

The irony here is that triple doubles are arbitrary, but so is this magical combination of individual success and team success that rewards Harden the MVP. Why Harden over Westbrook because of team success but not Curry/Leonard over Harden? Spurs are 8 games better than the Rockets and Rockets are 8 games better than OKC, yet Spurs and Rockets are "top teams" and Thunder don't clear the threshold. Totally arbitrary.

People will vote, maybe Harden will win and if he does that's fine. If he doesn't win, it's no injustice or inconsistency, because the criteria you're appealing to to favor Harden is in itself inconsistent.

Rockets fans have decided that a sub 50 win 6th seed cannot have an MVP. While you can say that is contrived or arbitrary, there is a lot of historical voting precedence behind that. It's not inconsistent to frame an argument for Harden MVP. He's the only guy that checks multiple boxes (stats, winning, and the redemption story narrative).

[Kevin Johnson]

Irony? I'm not really sure you know what that means..I asked when the last time it happened was..alluding that it was highly uncommon..and you just proved my point considering it has been 35 years.

You are complaining about a player on a ~46 win team about the win the MVP but the last time a player on a 46 win team won the MVP it was on your team - the Houston Rockets. There is irony in that.

The problem for James Harden is he's the Hillary Clinton of the MVP race. On paper he should win but not enough people actually like the guy.

This will definitely influence at least some votes. The constant ref baiting and making a move to get a foul instead of score is just basketball at its worst and the King of that garbage being the MVP isn't good for the sport.

Also, one thing I noticed is remember in February there was a thread called "Harden takes flopping to a new level while mating with MCW" because Harden flopped and started riding piggy back on MCW and then people started posting other times he did the same like with JRue. EVERY ONE of those YouTube videos has been DELETED. I really think Morey is savvy enough to try to smear Westbrook and clean up Harden's image

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1520782#start_here
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1520782&start=40#start_here

[Texas Chuck]

It's incredibly frustrating to have harden lose the MVP for completely opposing reasons, in 2015 he lost to curry who had two other allstars and amazing defenders all around him because they had the better record even though harden carried an injury riddled roster to the second seed, and now that harden is on the other side with the 3rd best record, the media wants to side with the guy with the 45-34 record because his teammates are slightly worse and has 2 extra rebounds.

No doubt. Harden is probably still suffering a bit from what happened last year. He shouldn't but I'm sure voters remember and some are using it against him. Add to that his disdain for defense(not that Westbrook is much better, but he at least hides his lack of effort/interest better), and some media's dislike for his style of play and Harden definitely has things to overcome.

but its not new. Shaq only got 1 because of narrative reasons. Lebron has lost some MVP's just because people got tired of voting for him or in 2011 specifically because of the fall-out over the decision. Tim Duncan doesn't have a single DPOY because voters are stupid and thought Bruce Bowen was a significant factor. Heck Kawhi has both of the last 2 DPOY's largely because people simply like him more than they do Draymond.

So definitely frustrating, but anytime you have the human element you are going to get the agendas mixed in. I remember Nolan Ryan not being a unanimous 1st ballot guy because a couple guys wanted the attention of writing a column justifying not doing so. It's mostly an embarrassment for those guys.

For me I'm a big Westbrook fan and I don't care for Harden. But if I had a vote, I'd give it to Harden this year. I think he's truly been the most "valuable" player in the league and that's all that matters to me.

[E-Balla]

It's incredibly frustrating to have harden lose the MVP for completely opposing reasons, in 2015 he lost to curry who had two other allstars and amazing defenders all around him because they had the better record even though harden carried an injury riddled roster to the second seed, and now that harden is on the other side with the 3rd best record, the media wants to side with the guy with the 45-34 record because his teammates are slightly worse and has 2 extra rebounds.

He lost for the same reason both years. The MVP was better than him. Even if we go by a simple boxscore aggregate like PER or WS or VORP Harden is well behind Russ and was behind Curry too. Statistically Harden didn't have a case either year, the narrative is what made him close.

[E-Balla]

Harden is easily the MVP to me. Westbrook is having a historic year, but Harden's team is better and is only 2 rebounds per game short of a triple double average himself. Does that make me a Morey mole?

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.

When was the last time a player on a < 50 win team won MVP?

Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

[PaulieWal]

It's incredibly frustrating to have harden lose the MVP for completely opposing reasons, in 2015 he lost to curry who had two other allstars and amazing defenders all around him because they had the better record even though harden carried an injury riddled roster to the second seed, and now that harden is on the other side with the 3rd best record, the media wants to side with the guy with the 45-34 record because his teammates are slightly worse and has 2 extra rebounds.

He lost for the same reason both years. The MVP was better than him. Even if we go by a simple boxscore aggregate like PER or WS or VORP Harden is well behind Russ and was behind Curry too. Statistically Harden didn't have a case either year, the narrative is what made him close.

Exactly this. Seeing a lot of push for this narrative from Harden supporters. They say Harden got "robbed" for being on the other side of the coin in both 2015 and 2017 except for the fact that Curry was better in 2015 and RUss is better now.

[CptCrunch]

ESPN with the hate narrative, the same narrative they drove last year to leave Harden off the all-NBA team. ESPN is absolutely disgusting and has a hard-on for hating Harden.

The double standard here is so apparent. When Harden lost to Curry; the reason cited was that Warriors were better than the Rockets. Westbrook's 2 more rebounds a game is apparently more important than 8% higher true shooting and the added passing/point guard player/leadership/making his team better. Before the season, OKC was universally considered to be a better team than the Rockets. But Harden elevated his game and just had one of the greatest seasons in the NBA history. He took a team of role players to the 3rd best record in the NBA, enough for 1st seed in the East.

ESPN, f&^# you

[Hello Brooklyn]

Next year Harden should forget about winning games, and instead average 2 more rebounds. Then he will definitely win MVP.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Also I love how people keep using the D'Antoni argument as if he's some magical wizard that makes everyone amazing.

Last time I checked, his last two coaching gigs were massive failures. So much so, that the Rockets were widely mocked for hiring him.

Now suddenly he's the best coach ever again.

[Mr. E]

There is a big, stickied thread at the top of this page for MVP discussion.

There does not need to be a new topic for every report or poll.

This thread has been merged with that topic. Thank you!

Mr. E

[Basileus777]

Lebron has lost some MVP's just because people got tired of voting for him or in 2011 specifically because of the fall-out over the decision.

Has Lebron actually lost MVPs that he deserved? In 2011 he was on a team that underachieved in the regular season and he didn't have a particularly outstanding case. Howard probably got robbed more than anyone that year. LeBron won the next two MVPs so voters didn't really hold the decision against him when it mattered.

[Texas Chuck]

Lebron has lost some MVP's just because people got tired of voting for him or in 2011 specifically because of the fall-out over the decision.

Has Lebron actually lost MVPs that he deserved? In 2011 he was on a team that underachieved in the regular season and he didn't have a particularly outstanding case. Howard probably got robbed more than anyone that year. LeBron won the next two MVPs so voters didn't really hold the decision against him when it mattered.

He was the best player that year without much doubt. You can make a real argument despite that that Howard or Dirk are more deserving MVP's based on their impact on their teams, but it goes without saying that Lebron lost votes that year because of non-basketball reasons.

[Basileus777]

Lebron has lost some MVP's just because people got tired of voting for him or in 2011 specifically because of the fall-out over the decision.

Has Lebron actually lost MVPs that he deserved? In 2011 he was on a team that underachieved in the regular season and he didn't have a particularly outstanding case. Howard probably got robbed more than anyone that year. LeBron won the next two MVPs so voters didn't really hold the decision against him when it mattered.

He was the best player that year without much doubt. You can make a real argument that Howard or Dirk are more deserving MVP's, but it goes without saying that Lebron lost votes that year because of non-basketball reasons.

He lost votes because his team was perceived as an underachiever. He didn't deserve MVP that year and wouldn't have won even if the decision hadn't been a pr disaster. "The best player" is not how MVPs are awarded, especially when said player's numbers are down on a team whose narrative is counter to him winning MVP.