TMZ: Bodycam footage released from Jaxon Hayes arrest

[Ducklett]

What did they do to de-escalate? Shut their mouths and grab him?

Are you a cop? Part of police oversight committee?

If not, your opinion means nothing when it comes to critiquing these officers. You do so from a chair, behind a screen, without a clue — other than maybe you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

You weren’t there, don’t know the entire story or understand how law enforcement works (unless you are a cop).

The irony here is that we're on a basketball forum critiquing professional basketball players about how they do their job. It's not lost on me...

Are we not allowed to have an opinion now?

While obviously you are allowed to have whatever opinions you want and it is silly to suggest otherwise, comparing basketball, which if you polled the userbase of RealGM I would guess 85% or more of posters have played basketball at some level, to policing, which I would guess 8.5% or less of the userbase of RealGM has done any policing or lawyering for policing, seems extremely silly.

[Scalabrine]

Are you a cop? Part of police oversight committee?

If not, your opinion means nothing when it comes to critiquing these officers. You do so from a chair, behind a screen, without a clue — other than maybe you stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

You weren’t there, don’t know the entire story or understand how law enforcement works (unless you are a cop).

The irony here is that we're on a basketball forum critiquing professional basketball players about how they do their job. It's not lost on me...

Are we not allowed to have an opinion now?

While obviously you are allowed to have whatever opinions you want and it is silly to suggest otherwise, comparing basketball, which if you polled the userbase of RealGM I would guess 85% or more of posters have played basketball at some level, to policing, which I would guess 8.5% or less of the userbase of RealGM has done any policing or lawyering for policing, seems extremely silly.

Major reach here.

Look at the conversation we both quoted. He's allowed to ask what the cops did to de-escalate. You don't need to be a cop or police oversight committee to ask that. In fact, thats not even an opinion, he just asked a question.

[Ducklett]

The irony here is that we're on a basketball forum critiquing professional basketball players about how they do their job. It's not lost on me...

Are we not allowed to have an opinion now?

While obviously you are allowed to have whatever opinions you want and it is silly to suggest otherwise, comparing basketball, which if you polled the userbase of RealGM I would guess 85% or more of posters have played basketball at some level, to policing, which I would guess 8.5% or less of the userbase of RealGM has done any policing or lawyering for policing, seems extremely silly.

Major reach here.

Look at the conversation we both quoted. He's allowed to ask what the cops did to de-escalate. You don't need to be a cop or police oversight committee to ask that. In fact, thats not even an opinion, he just asked a question.

No it isn't. We are on a basketball forum talking about basketball with a userbase who has mostly done the thing we are talking about. You can ask whatever questions you want. Suggesting that a majority of people on this forum have the same understanding of the innerworkings of police work that they do basketball is silly. There are lots of places on the internet to talk about policing with people who have a much better understanding than basketball fans do. I would suggest you go there with your questions.

[Texas Chuck]

LOL at telling people they can't have opinions on policing. We've reached absurdity levels here. This is how society works. You don't just let an entity evaluate itself. Hey we think we do everything perfect and because you haven't been a cop you don't get a say.

That's not how it works and its going to blow this dude's mind when he realizes the States has civilian control over the military and for a very good reason.

We also have school boards with non-teachers. And corporations have boards with people who don't work in that industry. We have juries without criminals. Or lawyers. Or judges. Or even court reporters, sketch artists, or bailiffs.

At my job I manage people who do a job I've never done and would absolutely suck at it. Yet it all works quite well somehow.

[shangrila]

LOL at telling people they can't have opinions on policing. We've reached absurdity levels here. This is how society works. You don't just let an entity evaluate itself. Hey we think we do everything perfect and because you haven't been a cop you don't get a say.

That's not how it works and its going to blow this dude's mind when he realizes the States has civilian control over the military and for a very good reason.

We also have school boards with non-teachers. And corporations have boards with people who don't work in that industry. We have juries without criminals. Or lawyers. Or judges. Or even court reporters, sketch artists, or bailiffs.

At my job I manage people who do a job I've never done and would absolutely suck at it. Yet it all works quite well somehow.

You should re-read the thread. No one said you can't have an opinion, so you're arguing a strawman here.

[Texas Chuck]

LOL at telling people they can't have opinions on policing. We've reached absurdity levels here. This is how society works. You don't just let an entity evaluate itself. Hey we think we do everything perfect and because you haven't been a cop you don't get a say.

That's not how it works and its going to blow this dude's mind when he realizes the States has civilian control over the military and for a very good reason.

We also have school boards with non-teachers. And corporations have boards with people who don't work in that industry. We have juries without criminals. Or lawyers. Or judges. Or even court reporters, sketch artists, or bailiffs.

At my job I manage people who do a job I've never done and would absolutely suck at it. Yet it all works quite well somehow.

You should re-read the thread. No one said you can't have an opinion, so you're arguing a strawman here.

We clearly interpret Ducklett and Wolveswin's attempts to squash all talk of policing here quite differently.

[og15]

Hayes didn’t handle himself well.

That said, American cops are dumb and combative. Cops kept escalating things. Like they’re grown men and they don’t have the patience or skills to talk to a scared, immature, defensive college kid. He literally looked like he just wanted to go and hide in his bedroom. They just kept grabbing at him and trying to physically control him. Bloody Morons.

“Imma call you back....imma call you back” — that is freakin hilarious.

not easy for cops having to deal with uncooperative, low IQ, sociopaths on the regular, many of whom are criminals or high on drugs that wish them harm. I genuinely believe most of these cops have PTSD as it's an impossible job so I'm not surprised some lose their grip. It's a tough situation all around. What I AM convinced of is, if everyone simply complied, for the most part, there'd be way fewer instances like this.

Just like some cops might have PTSD, there are communities that have their own PTSD with police officers, and have witnessed people complying and still not have it work for them, so that's one confounding factor. Just like there are straight up criminals, there are cops that are in there because they like the power to command and control people and their behavior has nothing to do with any PTSD.

Another factor is that part of what some societies have made the police's job is to go and deal with non-compliant people who have either some mental health issue / crisis or some drug issue, so compliance obviously is not going to happen when the whole reason they are being called is due to non-compliance. Many of the police are primarily trained in subduing people, and that's their default go to, so they apply that to more situations than they should. The police have families too, and for many of them, they basically take the path of rather apprehend and stay safe or alive than risk anything. So it's simply tough all around, but there are things both citizens and also police and police departments can do to make things better.

[shangrila]

LOL at telling people they can't have opinions on policing. We've reached absurdity levels here. This is how society works. You don't just let an entity evaluate itself. Hey we think we do everything perfect and because you haven't been a cop you don't get a say.

That's not how it works and its going to blow this dude's mind when he realizes the States has civilian control over the military and for a very good reason.

We also have school boards with non-teachers. And corporations have boards with people who don't work in that industry. We have juries without criminals. Or lawyers. Or judges. Or even court reporters, sketch artists, or bailiffs.

At my job I manage people who do a job I've never done and would absolutely suck at it. Yet it all works quite well somehow.

You should re-read the thread. No one said you can't have an opinion, so you're arguing a strawman here.

We clearly interpret Ducklett and Wolveswin's attempts to squash all talk of policing here quite differently.

If that's what squashing talk looks like to you then I don't know what to say.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

No it isn't. We are on a basketball forum talking about basketball with a userbase who has mostly done the thing we are talking about. You can ask whatever questions you want. Suggesting that a majority of people on this forum have the same understanding of the innerworkings of police work that they do basketball is silly. There are lots of places on the internet to talk about policing with people who have a much better understanding than basketball fans do. I would suggest you go there with your questions.

wait, so the public isn't allowed to have an opinion on how their communities are policed by taxpayer-funded public servants? you can't have any thoughts on the legal system unless you went to law school? kinda sounds to me like you just hate democracy

[Ducklett]

LOL at telling people they can't have opinions on policing. We've reached absurdity levels here. This is how society works. You don't just let an entity evaluate itself. Hey we think we do everything perfect and because you haven't been a cop you don't get a say.

That's not how it works and its going to blow this dude's mind when he realizes the States has civilian control over the military and for a very good reason.

We also have school boards with non-teachers. And corporations have boards with people who don't work in that industry. We have juries without criminals. Or lawyers. Or judges. Or even court reporters, sketch artists, or bailiffs.

At my job I manage people who do a job I've never done and would absolutely suck at it. Yet it all works quite well somehow.

Chuck what are you talking about. The person I quoted suggested that this forum has the same understanding of policing that we do of basketball. I never said or suggested anything you are even talking about.

If you guys have honest questions about police work, there are great resources out there to ask your questions.

If you guys have honest concerns about the policing in said video, you should go to the resources of the PD in question and bring up your concerns.

Asking questions about policing to basketball fans isn't going to yield great answers. If you just want to discuss opinions, have it at. Opinions aren't in question here. I would say that political discussion on these opinions shouldn't be in the GB anyways, but you guys do you.

While obviously you are allowed to have whatever opinions you want and it is silly to suggest otherwise

Edit: Just to get this out of the way: It was not my intent to stifle discussion of any sort on a discussion board. If you feel my comment hindered your ability to engage in this discussion, I apologize. I don't think I deserve to be spoken poorly about or attacked over a statement on the knowledge of the average RealGMer, however. I will excuse myself from this thread and let you guys get back to it.

[Wolveswin]

LOL at telling people they can't have opinions on policing. We've reached absurdity levels here. This is how society works. You don't just let an entity evaluate itself. Hey we think we do everything perfect and because you haven't been a cop you don't get a say.

That's not how it works and its going to blow this dude's mind when he realizes the States has civilian control over the military and for a very good reason.

We also have school boards with non-teachers. And corporations have boards with people who don't work in that industry. We have juries without criminals. Or lawyers. Or judges. Or even court reporters, sketch artists, or bailiffs.

At my job I manage people who do a job I've never done and would absolutely suck at it. Yet it all works quite well somehow.

Chuck what are you talking about. The person I quoted suggested that this forum has the same understanding of policing that we do of basketball. I never said or suggested anything you are even talking about.

If you guys have honest questions about police work, there are great resources out there to ask your questions.

If you guys have honest concerns about the policing in said video, you should go to the resources of the PD in question and bring up your concerns.

Asking questions about policing to basketball fans isn't going to yield great answers. If you just want to discuss opinions, have it at. Opinions aren't in question here. I would say that political discussion on these opinions shouldn't be in the GB anyways, but you guys do you.

While obviously you are allowed to have whatever opinions you want and it is silly to suggest otherwise

Edit: Just to get this out of the way: It was not my intent to stifle discussion of any sort on a discussion board. If you feel my comment hindered your ability to engage in this discussion, I apologize. I don't think I deserve to be spoken poorly about or attacked over a statement on the knowledge of the average RealGMer, however. I will excuse myself from this thread and let you guys get back to it.

I will second that. When it comes to cops, most are too quick to make a opinion ruling based on the little factual knowledge they have of the event or experience withholding the peace for such an specific event. This thread and subject is great example. Why do we get to judge jury and execute the cops based on small sample size of TMZ footage? Why are citizens not held to that same type of public opinion?

Hayes and cops should both strive to be better.

[benson13]

What a dumbass. Guess he's never heard of probable cause.

Yep, stupid ass rule applied in this case. Just follow the logic for one second here:

Woman in house apparently texts her friend saying she's in trouble, and can't call the authorities.
Friend then calls cops
Cops show up and have probable cause



So, the woman can text her friend but can't text 911? You know that 911 can be texted now, right? Been that way for over 5 years. She can text but can't call 911 (even without speaking into the phone, if you call 911 and aren't responsive they'll show up). I can't imagine how this can be abused for someone you don't like...for example:


A person I dislike has drugs in their house
They're having people over
I anonymously call or text 911 off a burner and say I heard screams for help from the house
Police now have probable cause and enter his home and find drugs and he goes to jail. Probable cause (made up) but they bust him for something they never would have busted him for without that anonymous made up tip.

See where I'm going with this? Slippery slope.

Your example is terrible. That's not how it works.

They were there to investigate a call. They weren't entering the house. They were probably planning on knocking on the door and talking to his girlfriend.

[Scalabrine]

While obviously you are allowed to have whatever opinions you want and it is silly to suggest otherwise, comparing basketball, which if you polled the userbase of RealGM I would guess 85% or more of posters have played basketball at some level, to policing, which I would guess 8.5% or less of the userbase of RealGM has done any policing or lawyering for policing, seems extremely silly.

Major reach here.

Look at the conversation we both quoted. He's allowed to ask what the cops did to de-escalate. You don't need to be a cop or police oversight committee to ask that. In fact, thats not even an opinion, he just asked a question.

No it isn't. We are on a basketball forum talking about basketball with a userbase who has mostly done the thing we are talking about. You can ask whatever questions you want. Suggesting that a majority of people on this forum have the same understanding of the innerworkings of police work that they do basketball is silly. There are lots of places on the internet to talk about policing with people who have a much better understanding than basketball fans do. I would suggest you go there with your questions.

I didn't have any questions here so I'll just stay right here...

Whats this thread topic about again???

[SkyBill40]

Ugh. There's an awful lot of cringe and logical fallacies in this thread.

The lesson to be learned here is that if cool heads had been shown from the start by both Hayes and the police who were routed there for a domestic violence based call, things would likely have turned out very differently. The problem is that DV calls are a high energy situation from the start and the police are going to be prepared to take physical action should the situation demand it. Hayes was incorrect in his assessment of law as the police did not need a warrant to enter the property regardless of it being his residence or not.

Hayes didn't help the situation from the start, but he was calm about it... initially. His friend didn't help things either. The cops didn't help matters, but they were calm about it as well up to the point where they laid hands on him. He should not have resisted and just been compliant for the sake of his safety and that of the officers there to investigate. The cops didn't need to draw their Taser weapons even if it has a flashlight on it. I'm sure they have a large flashlight available and with that many officers on scene, drawing a weapon, lethal or otherwise, only serves to make matters worse. They had him pinned down with a dude straddling his chest. There was no need to zap him or even threaten it as I see it.

A bad look on both sides of this coin.

[srhcan]

Liquor is the main cause, Hayes would not act like that if not drunk

[dsg2003mach1]

Ugh. There's an awful lot of cringe and logical fallacies in this thread.

The lesson to be learned here is that if cool heads had been shown from the start by both Hayes and the police who were routed there for a domestic violence based call, things would likely have turned out very differently. The problem is that DV calls are a high energy situation from the start and the police are going to be prepared to take physical action should the situation demand it. Hayes was incorrect in his assessment of law as the police did not need a warrant to enter the property regardless of it being his residence or not.

Hayes didn't help the situation from the start, but he was calm about it... initially. His friend didn't help things either. The cops didn't help matters, but they were calm about it as well up to the point where they laid hands on him. He should not have resisted and just been compliant for the sake of his safety and that of the officers there to investigate. The cops didn't need to draw their Taser weapons even if it has a flashlight on it. I'm sure they have a large flashlight available and with that many officers on scene, drawing a weapon, lethal or otherwise, only serves to make matters worse. They had him pinned down with a dude straddling his chest. There was no need to zap him or even threaten it as I see it.

A bad look on both sides of this coin.

Ive seen it stated a few times that DV calls have a much higher rate of officers being injured or killed compared to most other types of calls. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but you can see why they might be more aggressive from the start.

[SkyBill40]

Ive seen it stated a few times that DV calls have a much higher rate of officers being injured or killed compared to most other types of calls. I'm not saying it's right or wrong but you can see why they might be more aggressive from the start.

Exactly. That would explain why they may have been a bit more aggressive than usual. Hayes wasn't necessarily acting in a threatening manner based on the footage despite it being a DV call. He did escalate the situation though and refused to comply with what were simple yet reasonable requests from the officers sent there to investigate.

[Hsker4Life]

Hayes didn’t handle himself well.

Edit: just finished watching, is he dumb as rocks or just a little bit dumb and high as f@#$ ???????

That said, American cops are dumb and combative. Cops kept escalating things. Like they’re grown men and they don’t have the patience or skills to talk to a scared, immature, defensive college kid. He literally looked like he just wanted to go and hide in his bedroom. They just kept grabbing at him and trying to physically control him. Bloody Morons.

“Imma call you back....imma call you back” — that is freakin hilarious.

Yeah. They should have let the 6’11 combative man who just assaulted a woman back into the same residence he assaulted her in. Brilliant! Just brilliant!

[LAL1947]

Liquor is the main cause, Hayes would not act like that if not drunk

Liquor was not the main cause. The cause was his pride, ego, machoism... take your pick The liquor only brought out the underlying personality defects.

[TheNetsFan]

Hayes didn’t handle himself well.

Edit: just finished watching, is he dumb as rocks or just a little bit dumb and high as f@#$ ???????

That said, American cops are dumb and combative. Cops kept escalating things. Like they’re grown men and they don’t have the patience or skills to talk to a scared, immature, defensive college kid. He literally looked like he just wanted to go and hide in his bedroom. They just kept grabbing at him and trying to physically control him. Bloody Morons.

“Imma call you back....imma call you back” — that is freakin hilarious.

Physically control him? They're there on a domestic violence call accusing him. They need to enter, assess the scene & talk to the abused person without him present to potentially intimidate her into something other than her side of the story. He refused to let them enter & wanted to re-enter himself. All he had to do was wait outside & let them interview the victim. Aside from kneeling on his neck while trying to restrain him, I honestly don't think they could be reasonable expected to handle it any better, given it's a 7 foot, peak physical condition athlete that you have to assume is violent, since that was the reason they were called to the house in the first place.