76ers back to fining Ben Simmons

[Nuntius]

The wording is definitely awkward, but by definition a psychiatrist provides mental health care, so mental health related medical services is not exempt. My interpretation of the "professionals providing non-mental health related medical services" is that its there to cover stuff like acupuncture or physical therapy. Now, a therapist isn't a physician but is providing mental health care so there is a bit of a grey area, but the way the excerpt reads It seems to me that the Sixers are well within their rights to request for Ben to substantiate his health.

I think the question to be answered is how much information has to be shared, right? Like if Simmons's psychiatrist writes the team a letter stating I am treating Ben for X or X and Y or X, Y, and Z is that sufficient? Because surely nothing covered in a therapy session should ever be made available to a team--I can't imagine the players having ever agreed to that.

And if that is what is required, the notification from a doctor and Simmons isn't providing it, then the fine seems reasonable and appropriate. And if that continues to be the case, it does lead more credence to those doubting the veracity if he can't get a doctor to sign off on a clinical diagnosis.

However if the requirements are more invasive, I for one, totally understand why Simmons is loathe to cooperate and doesn't fully trust them.

Which is why absent information we should all acknowledge what we don't know. And not reach the conclusion we want to reach for other reasons.

Imo what would constitute as reasonable would be, a diagnosis and accompanying sign off that Simmons is undergoing treatment and mentally not ready to play, from a psychiatrist that is not associated with either the Sixers or NBPA. I.e. Ben has generalized anxiety disorder, is unfit to play, and is currently in treatment for it. That's it. The Sixers medical team have their own vested interest in this and he shouldn't be expected to see them, nor should he have to divulge specifics of what he is discussing in therapy.

If he does that, nobody can reasonably question the legitimacy of his health and the Sixers would be out of their minds to continue to fine him.

Two questions:

1) Why the "not associated with the NBPA" part? Don't you trust the NBPA to be impartial on this?

2) The Sixers have disputed the legitimacy of third-party medical professionals in the past. They did with Markelle Fultz and they tried to portray him as a nutcase. What stops them from doing it again?

[RoyceDa59]

Philly has all season to trade him absolutely no reason to do it now.

Dec 15th players who signed contracts this offseason are eligible for trade.

Feb 10th is the trade deadline.

You can expect Ben to be traded sometime between Dec 15th and Feb 10th.

[Sixerscan]

I ignored that part because I assumed that the "non-mental health related medical services" part above meant that this situation was excluded by the part that you underlined since we are talking about mental health related medical services. If it doesn't exclude it then, yeah, my assumption was wrong. Still, though, the phrasing of it seems quite nebulous. It doesn't make it clear that a player has to provide updates on mental health related medical services if it affect the player's ability to play basketball.

So, I'm really not sure which of the two assumptions here (mine or yours) are ultimately correct. The phrasing is definitely not clear enough.

Well again I think you are missing part of the section, just a different part, here it is again since it got cut off (I added the letters and bolded the part that applies):

"A Player who consults or is treated by (A) a physician (including a psychiatrist) or (B) a professional providing non-mental health related medical services (e.g., chiropractor, physical therapist) other than a physician or other professional designated by the Team shall give notice of such consultation or treatment to the Team and shall provide the Team with all information it may request concerning any condition that in the judgment of the Team’s physician may affect the Player’s ability to play skilled basketball."

Why would the rest of the sentence only apply to (B) but not (A)? What is the point of (A) being there if the rest of the sentence doesn't apply?

If he sees a psychiatrist he clearly has to provide them with that information, at least that's how I read it.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he's withholding the information because this is part of his "plan" to get traded (i.e., be difficult) rather than any distrust of the Sixers' doctors, since again he's had many interactions with them including major surgeries. Like when he got knee surgery after the 2020 season I know for a fact that it was with a doctor in the Philly area with connections with the team. Heck one of the few times he's talked to the team it was to get the trainers to look at this back.

You bring about a good point about disclosure as per the CBA but the question is what are the Sixers actually getting out of this information? It’s not like Simmons is going to some psychiatrist at the strip mall, it’s through the NBAPA so not sure why they can’t go through other channels to get that info.

From Simmons’ point of view I could see he’s reluctant to disclose too much, especially with the risk of leaks. Not that Morey would leak it, but you never know what could happen,with an organization as large as the Sixers. And from Morey’s perspective his interest is just getting Simmons back on the court, but not sure if he’s going to get the answer to that from therapist notes alone. And I still assume there are still HIPPA rights regarding what can be disclosed. The problem is that neither side trusts the other one so any type of mutual resolution seems far away.

They get proof that he has a legit reason under the CBA to get paid millions of dollars despite not performing services.

If he doesn't want to disclose anything that's fine but if he wants to get paid under his contract, he has to disclose certain things under it. I'm not going to explain HIPPA here but trust me it is not relevant (and google it if you don't want to take my word for it).

[SpreeChokeJob]

If Simmons is mentally disabled then the Sixers can probably go to the insurance company to file a claim. They still need some written documentation to show. No insurance company is going to pay up millions just because.

[Nuntius]

Well again I think you are missing part of the section, just a different part, here it is again since it got cut off (I added the letters and bolded the part that applies):



Why would the rest of the sentence only apply to (B) but not (A)? What is the point of (A) being there if the rest of the sentence doesn't apply?

If he sees a psychiatrist he clearly has to provide them with that information, at least that's how I read it.

It seems pretty obvious to me that he's withholding the information because this is part of his "plan" to get traded (i.e., be difficult) rather than any distrust of the Sixers' doctors, since again he's had many interactions with them including major surgeries. Like when he got knee surgery after the 2020 season I know for a fact that it was with a doctor in the Philly area with connections with the team. Heck one of the few times he's talked to the team it was to get the trainers to look at this back.

Because a psychiatrist provides mental health related medical services which is already included in B. That's why I read it as that being something that is exempt from disclosure. I could definitely be wrong here, I'm not saying that I'm reading this right. But the fact that it can be read that way does mean that it isn't written clearly enough. So, given this current situation that part of the CBA will have to be revisited and written more clearly when the next negotiations take place.

As for the last paragraph, everyone can have their own opinion on the situation. All I know is that if Simmons does indeed have a mental health issue then the approach that the Sixers have is 100% the wrong one. And they had the same slimy approach with Markelle Fultz as well. I'm not giving them any benefit of the doubt personally. They aren't the good guys here, imo.

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

[xdrta+]

Kawhi Leonard was cleared by the Spurs medical team to play. He refused to play citing a second opinion that he got from an external medical professional. He was not deducted pay by the Spurs for failing to show up. Simmon's mistake was initially trying to strong-arm the Sixers by not showing up — the mental health was only brought up by Simmons when the checks bounced. He played his hand poorly, and now the Sixers have credible suspicion that Ben is fit to play basketball. How do people in this thread defend Simmon's behavior? If you need to take a sabbatical, take one. You are not entitled to the Governor's money without living up to your obligations. I hope Ben does the right thing and goes back to work, and earns his money like a pro.

But Kawhi could have been fined, same as Simmons. The Spurs chose not to. If they had, it might have gone to arbitration, where a neutral medical team would have made a recommendation, and an arbitrator would have made a decision. Again, the Spurs chose not to go this route but they could have.

[Asianiac_24]

Good, it's obvious from the get go that mental health issues is just a BS claim to get paid without doing anything. It's dirty and gaming the system. The Sixers are paying him huge amounts of money, the least they could ask for is to know if Simmons is legitimately seeing a real therapist and getting better. I simply don't believe Simmons here at all.

[Dark Faze]

This is so wild.

Ben will just see a third party shrink and get his money back. And hell, 99% of Americans could use some mental health help anyway, to varying degrees.

[Sixerscan]

Because a psychiatrist provides mental health related medical services which is already included in B. That's why I read it as that being something that is exempt from disclosure. I could definitely be wrong here, I'm not saying that I'm reading this right. But the fact that it can be read that way does mean that it isn't written clearly enough. So, given this current situation that part of the CBA will have to be revisited and written more clearly when the next negotiations take place.

As for the last paragraph, everyone can have their own opinion on the situation. All I know is that if Simmons does indeed have a mental health issue then the approach that the Sixers have is 100% the wrong one. And they had the same slimy approach with Markelle Fultz as well. I'm not giving them any benefit of the doubt personally. They aren't the good guys here, imo.

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

They're not forcing him to not see anyone, they are asking him to provide the information they are entitled to under the CBA and the contract he signed in exchange for getting paid millions of dollars to wear a tank top and bounce a ball around. If he doesn't want to get paid he doesn't have to share the info.

[Nuntius]

Kawhi Leonard was cleared by the Spurs medical team to play. He refused to play citing a second opinion that he got from an external medical professional. He was not deducted pay by the Spurs for failing to show up. Simmon's mistake was initially trying to strong-arm the Sixers by not showing up — the mental health was only brought up by Simmons when the checks bounced. He played his hand poorly, and now the Sixers have credible suspicion that Ben is fit to play basketball. How do people in this thread defend Simmon's behavior? If you need to take a sabbatical, take one. You are not entitled to the Governor's money without living up to your obligations. I hope Ben does the right thing and goes back to work, and earns his money like a pro.

I'm not sure whether the underlined part is accurate. The reports say that Ben Simmons has been working with mental health professionals through the NBAPA since this summer -> https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/sixers-ben-simmons-mental-health-trade-20211102.html

The disgruntled point guard has been working with mental health professionals through the National Basketball Players Associations instead of Sixers team doctors since this summer.

Therefore, your timeline isn't accurate. He had sought and received mental health help before the Sixers started fining him.

LOL, you can defend this weasel all you want. He demanded a trade from the Sixers, then didn't report. Whether he saw a therapist or not is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant at all, though. Not to the point you were making. You were saying that Simmons only brought up the mental health issue after the Sixers started bouncing his checks and fining him when, in reality, he had started getting mental health since the summer, long before he was docked pay. In other words, you are simply wrong.

And I don't really care about defending Simmons per se. I'm not a fan of the player and I do not know the individual. But when an employer is trying to violate an employee's rights (such as doctor-client confidentiality as in this case) then, yeah, I'm going to speak up.

[First Step]

Kawhi Leonard was cleared by the Spurs medical team to play. He refused to play citing a second opinion that he got from an external medical professional. He was not deducted pay by the Spurs for failing to show up. Simmon's mistake was initially trying to strong-arm the Sixers by not showing up — the mental health was only brought up by Simmons when the checks bounced. He played his hand poorly, and now the Sixers have credible suspicion that Ben is fit to play basketball. How do people in this thread defend Simmon's behavior? If you need to take a sabbatical, take one. You are not entitled to the Governor's money without living up to your obligations. I hope Ben does the right thing and goes back to work, and earns his money like a pro.

But Kawhi could have been fined, same as Simmons. The Spurs chose not to. If they had, it might have gone to arbitration, where a neutral medical team would have made a recommendation, and an arbitrator would have made a decision. Again, the Spurs chose not to go this route but they could have.

The reason the Spurs paid Leonard was that he had a credible story that he was still injured. While some people doubted him, people tended to give him the benefit.

Simmons on the other hand demanded a trade and then didn't report thinking that would pressure the Sixers to move him quicker. When the Governors started freezing the funds, that's when Simmons found the mental health loophole. I'm sure he's going through a hard time, but to think he can just not co-operate with the Sixers and expect to collect his millions is probably the craziest part about the whole situation.

[MrBigShot]

Imo what would constitute as reasonable would be, a diagnosis and accompanying sign off that Simmons is undergoing treatment and mentally not ready to play, from a psychiatrist that is not associated with either the Sixers or NBPA. I.e. Ben has generalized anxiety disorder, is unfit to play, and is currently in treatment for it. That's it. The Sixers medical team have their own vested interest in this and he shouldn't be expected to see them, nor should he have to divulge specifics of what he is discussing in therapy.

If he does that, nobody can reasonably question the legitimacy of his health and the Sixers would be out of their minds to continue to fine him.

Two questions:

1) Why the "not associated with the NBPA" part? Don't you trust the NBPA to be impartial on this?

2) The Sixers have disputed the legitimacy of third-party medical professionals in the past. They did with Markelle Fultz and they tried to portray him as a nutcase. What stops them from doing it again?

1. Because the NBPA has a vested interest in helping Simmons get paid/get to a better situation. I don't trust them to be impartial. Just like I wouldn't trust the Sixers medical team to make an objective diagnosis if he were to see them.

2. Nothing is stopping them, but it would change the way the situation is perceived which is everything. If Simmons from the very start of this had done what I described above, I'd be defending him and ripping into the Sixers for fining a player who is struggling with a mental illness and taken the proper steps to substantiate his health. The outrage would be insane, and from a legal standpoint the Sixers would have nothing in the CBA to justify withholding his salary.

[First Step]

I'm not sure whether the underlined part is accurate. The reports say that Ben Simmons has been working with mental health professionals through the NBAPA since this summer -> https://www.inquirer.com/sixers/sixers-ben-simmons-mental-health-trade-20211102.html



Therefore, your timeline isn't accurate. He had sought and received mental health help before the Sixers started fining him.

LOL, you can defend this weasel all you want. He demanded a trade from the Sixers, then didn't report. Whether he saw a therapist or not is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant at all, though. Not to the point you were making. You were saying that Simmons only brought up the mental health issue after the Sixers started bouncing his checks and fining him when, in reality, he had started getting mental health since the summer, long before he was docked pay. In other words, you are simply wrong.

And I don't really care about defending Simmons per se. I'm not a fan of the player and I do not know the individual. But when an employer is trying to violate an employee's rights (such as doctor-client confidentiality as in this case) then, yeah, I'm going to speak up.

He demanded a trade and didn't report that to the Sixers, and now he is not cooperating. His approach was not consistent. Had he said to the Sixers from the start he is mentally ill, and worked with them, he would have a case. Seeking mental help doesn't mean you are incapable of performing your job requirements. If he really cared he would work with the Sixers. But he's a little whiney bitch. No surprise you relate.

[Nuntius]

the least they could ask for is to know if Simmons is legitimately seeing a real therapist.

He is seeing a real therapist, though. That's a given. He has been seeing an NBPA mental health professional since this summer. I don't think that anyone can dispute whether that therapist is real or not.

What the Sixers are asking here is for Simmons to give them a report about what that therapist says. They are asking for his diagnosis and, to me, it's not clear whether they have the right to do it or not.

[Nuntius]

If they're providing the same thing as (B) what's the point of explicitly calling them out as a separate thing in (A)? (B) is to cover other "professionals", i.e., *not* "physicians (including a psychiatrist)". Like chiropractors and physical therapists as they listed. Doctors such as psychiatrists are included in (A). In fact they explicitly include psychiatrists in (A) to avoid exactly the confusion that you are having.

If there was any question about whether what the Sixers were doing is wrong the Players Association would be all up in arms over this, but notice you don't hear a peep from them, or Rich Paul for that matter.

And as I said before, you could definitely be right in your reading and I could be wrong on it. We'll see how the NBPA will react to this matter, especially if the Sixers try to force Simmons to stop seeing the NBPA therapists that he's been seeing.

They're not forcing him to not see anyone, they are asking him to provide the information they are entitled to under the CBA and the contract he signed in exchange for getting paid millions of dollars to wear a tank top and bounce a ball around. If he doesn't want to get paid he doesn't have to share the info.

I am aware that they haven't forced him to stop seeing the NBPA therapists yet. Hence the "if" part. Again, we'll see how the NBPA reacts. The last couple of days have been very busy for them what with the Sarver report and this situation.

[Asianiac_24]

the least they could ask for is to know if Simmons is legitimately seeing a real therapist.

He is seeing a real therapist, though. That's a given. He has been seeing an NBPA mental health professional since this summer. I don't think that anyone can dispute whether that therapist is real or not.

What the Sixers are asking here is for Simmons to give them a report about what that therapist says. They are asking for his diagnosis and, to me, it's not clear whether they have the right to do it or not.

The NBPA works for the players. They are not neutral, the therapist must be an independent third party, not from NBPA, Sixers, or Ben Simmons.

[bbalnation]

the least they could ask for is to know if Simmons is legitimately seeing a real therapist.

He is seeing a real therapist, though. That's a given. He has been seeing an NBPA mental health professional since this summer. I don't think that anyone can dispute whether that therapist is real or not.

What the Sixers are asking here is for Simmons to give them a report about what that therapist says. They are asking for his diagnosis and, to me, it's not clear whether they have the right to do it or not.

The NBPA works for the players. They are not neutral, the therapist must be an independent third party, not from NBPA, Sixers, or Ben Simmons.

Who are you to now dictate what type of mental health support a person is allowed to get? Where a person can and can't get services from? What would be sufficient for you, regardless of board certification and whatnot. Lol yowza (literally had to edit out "lol what on earth" and replace it with "lol yowza" to stop the anti-kryie guys from spinning)

[Nuntius]

1. Because the NBPA has a vested interest in helping Simmons get paid/get to a better situation. I don't trust them to be impartial. Just like I wouldn't trust the Sixers medical team to make an objective diagnosis if he were to see them.

Fair enough. I disagree on the not trusting the NBPA part but I get your reasoning.

2. Nothing is stopping them, but it would change the way the situation is perceived which is everything. If Simmons from the very start of this had done what I described above, I'd be defending him and ripping into the Sixers for fining a player who is struggling with a mental illness and taken the proper steps to substantiate his health. The outrage would be insane, and from a legal standpoint the Sixers would have nothing in the CBA to justify withholding his salary.

Would it, though? Fans, in general, tend to side with teams over players, no matter the **** they pull. Were the Sixers ripped into shreds for the way they handled the Markelle Fultz situation? No, they weren't. In fact, most people seem to have forgotten that situation now and it wasn't even 5 years ago.

Simmons can go to a third-party medical professional and the Sixers attitude won't change. They'll just dispute him, just like they did with Fultz. The NBPA therapist, though, they cannot outright dispute since they don't want to face the wrath of the player's union. They have to be more careful when they refer to the findings of the NBPA therapist which is why it makes sense for Simmons to stick with him. He has already seen how the Sixers deal with third-party medical professional findings.

[axeman23]

So they don't actually want Ben to "get help", like he's been DOING, they want him to get THEIR "help"...

[Nuntius]

LOL, you can defend this weasel all you want. He demanded a trade from the Sixers, then didn't report. Whether he saw a therapist or not is irrelevant.

It's not irrelevant at all, though. Not to the point you were making. You were saying that Simmons only brought up the mental health issue after the Sixers started bouncing his checks and fining him when, in reality, he had started getting mental health since the summer, long before he was docked pay. In other words, you are simply wrong.

And I don't really care about defending Simmons per se. I'm not a fan of the player and I do not know the individual. But when an employer is trying to violate an employee's rights (such as doctor-client confidentiality as in this case) then, yeah, I'm going to speak up.

He demanded a trade and didn't report that to the Sixers, and now he is not cooperating. His approach was not consistent. Had he said to the Sixers from the start he is mentally ill, and worked with them, he would have a case. Seeking mental help doesn't mean you are incapable of performing your job requirements. If he really cared he would work with the Sixers. But he's a little whiney bitch. No surprise you relate.

You can dislike Simmons' approach all you want but that doesn't change the fact that your timeline was wrong. The request for mental health help preceded the Sixers docking his salary. I know that you hate being wrong and that it makes you defensive (cute little personal attack at the end, by the way) but, sorry, them's the facts.