Is Kobe given the most flack of any star? Highlighting inconsistent arguments against him.

[ComeFlyWithMe]

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kobe was the best "bad shot maker", due to his absurdly elite balance and body control. The effect of this was that no team could ever be certain that they could stop Kobe from shooting under any circumstances and he would often take "bad" shots. This meant that the defensive coverage of him had to be different. Point of attack defenders had to stay on him and could not step back and help defenders had to shade him and even throw double/triple teams at him, which lead to favorable outcomes for the Lakers. This is what they used to call the Kobe assist but I’m not gonna get into that lol.

Every decision and action leads to a cascading set of decisions and actions. This is built up over a game, over a playoff series, over a season and over a career. LeBron James talked about this idea when he mentioned that over the course of a game, he is setting his opponents up with moves to make other moves more effective later in the game.

Just like in 2000 the blazers didn’t put a body on Shaq the most dominant ever at his peak because they were so focused on Kobe shooting, this lead to the famous alley.

So by shooting into double and triple team coverage and missing, Kobe was actually helping his team by letting them get offensive rebounds and easy buckets? Hahah I have never heard this defense of Kobe before! That is crazy to me.

[flytimes11]

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kobe was the best "bad shot maker", due to his absurdly elite balance and body control. The effect of this was that no team could ever be certain that they could stop Kobe from shooting under any circumstances and he would often take "bad" shots. This meant that the defensive coverage of him had to be different. Point of attack defenders had to stay on him and could not step back and help defenders had to shade him and even throw double/triple teams at him, which lead to favorable outcomes for the Lakers. This is what they used to call the Kobe assist but I’m not gonna get into that lol.

Every decision and action leads to a cascading set of decisions and actions. This is built up over a game, over a playoff series, over a season and over a career. LeBron James talked about this idea when he mentioned that over the course of a game, he is setting his opponents up with moves to make other moves more effective later in the game.

Just like in 2000 the blazers didn’t put a body on Shaq the most dominant ever at his peak because they were so focused on Kobe shooting, this lead to the famous alley.

So by shooting into double and triple team coverage and missing, Kobe was actually helping his team by letting them get offensive rebounds and easy buckets? Hahah I have never heard this defense of Kobe before! That is crazy to me.

Precisely. The "Kobe assist," popularized by Kirk Goldsberry, in which Kobe's teammates were far more likely to grab offensive rebounds after his shots than for many other players. I didn’t want to bring that up though because I know it won’t go over well

[tsherkin]

He also created his own nickname. You don't create your own nickname.

Yeah, but it worked. People ran with it. Kobe had a degree of gravitas that isn't always well-represented by his detractors, independent from commentary on his floor game. Dude was very good, and very, very popular.

Demanded a trade before even playing in the league, then demanded a trade while on the Lakers! This guy stacked the deck from the start. RIP but he will always be a dollar store MJ to me.

This is like a shanty-town take on the guy's career. Not liking him is one thing; attempting to degrade the memory of his performance by calling him a "dollar store MJ" is just somewhat non-sensical to me.

It’s a great take in my opinion.

That's nice?

[dhsilv2]

Yeah, but it worked. People ran with it. Kobe had a degree of gravitas that isn't always well-represented by his detractors, independent from commentary on his floor game. Dude was very good, and very, very popular.



This is like a shanty-town take on the guy's career. Not liking him is one thing; attempting to degrade the memory of his performance by calling him a "dollar store MJ" is just somewhat non-sensical to me.

It’s a great take in my opinion.

That's nice?

I used to say "f off" and now I say "that's nice"

[tsherkin]

It’s a great take in my opinion.

That's nice?

I used to say "f off" and now I say "that's nice"

Hehehe.

[JRoy]

It’s a great take in my opinion.

That's nice?

I used to say "f off" and now I say "that's nice"

So edgy.

[dhsilv2]

That's nice?

I used to say "f off" and now I say "that's nice"

So edgy.

I take it you don't get the reference?

Spoiler:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=24&v=JddNDtC-Yrs&feature=youtu.be[/youtube]

[Franco]

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kobe was the best "bad shot maker", due to his absurdly elite balance and body control. The effect of this was that no team could ever be certain that they could stop Kobe from shooting under any circumstances and he would often take "bad" shots. This meant that the defensive coverage of him had to be different. Point of attack defenders had to stay on him and could not step back and help defenders had to shade him and even throw double/triple teams at him, which lead to favorable outcomes for the Lakers

This isn't unique to Kobe. Sure, Kobe is the best at making the most out of a bad situation, the problem was never his ability to put pressure on defenses and force them to pay more attention to him. The problem with Kobe was his tendency to get himself into bad situations when he didn't need to in the first place.

These things can be measured to a certain extent, and while the eye test certainly is a part of understanding a players' impact, claiming just "well he just had way more impact than stats" and having nothing but "muh ringz" to back it up is basically playing make-believe basketball.

[Jamaaliver]

Read on Twitter

[flytimes11]

Read on Twitter

Prob has to do with the way lakers dismantled spurs in 5 in 08.

[GQ Hot Dog]

OP's chasing a train that's already left the station.

Kobe's career is over, perceptions aren't going to change through on-court contributions and OP makes a bunch of arguments that have all been made before and fans don't buy. Kobe is a top-15 player ever and that's cemented in 90% or so of fans' minds and I doubt that will ever change.

Despite his gaudy counting stats, efficient volume scoring is proven as the single most important offensive factor to winning and Kobe falls short in that category compared to the other greats.

[Nazrmohamed]

I didn't read everyone else comments just yet. I know that efficiency is often the most used thing against Kobe, followed by the fact that for 3 of the titles he wad Shaqs sidekick.

One thing that doesn't really get discussed enough to me is his road to get there. He played his entire career in the hardest conference in the game, at least while he played they were. You had 4rth place teams that probably could've made the finals in the east and to be in that mix and still win 5 titles is impressive to me. I don't subscribe to Lebron hate but if comparing most Lebron teams didn't even face a worthy contender until the ECF and even that foe probably wasn't a true contender over the Spurs, Mavs, Kings. Even the nuggets of the time with Melo mightve been an ECF participant had it been in the east during those years.

[PizzaSteve]

OP's chasing a train that's already left the station.

Kobe's career is over, perceptions aren't going to change through on-court contributions and OP makes a bunch of arguments that have all been made before and fans don't buy. Kobe is a top-15 player ever and that's cemented in 90% or so of fans' minds and I doubt that will ever change.

Despite his gaudy counting stats, efficient volume scoring is proven as the single most important offensive factor to winning and Kobe falls short in that category compared to the other greats.

Pretty fair.

Plus the off court issues matter. For those who care a bit less about performance/winning and weigh character, some of the off court stuff can impact legacy views. I personally doubt his legacy will grow with time, and he will be surpassed by modern greats. Even with his tragic end likely adding some extra attention to his legacy (youngish deaths always seem to add to a mythos).

Consider KAJ winning Presidential medal of freedom and being a social advocate and author of substance, as a contrast to both MJ and Kobe. Both get some relatively free passes for pretty bad off court stuff. MJ has to be the most brilliantly marketed athelete ever. Also the last of an era with less balance. Does that lead to a bump above other generational talents?

[Xatticus]

I think this thread is some sort of social experiment. I find it hard to believe that the OP is taking his own arguments seriously. Perpetuating this thread is tantamount to conversing with a doorknob.

[flytimes11]

I think this thread is some sort of social experiment. I find it hard to believe that the OP is taking his own arguments seriously. Perpetuating this thread is tantamount to conversing with a doorknob.

I take the argument seriously. His resume speaks for itself. It’s a lot of people outside of Realgm. This the only place I really see him get disrespected.

[nikster]

I think this thread is some sort of social experiment. I find it hard to believe that the OP is taking his own arguments seriously. Perpetuating this thread is tantamount to conversing with a doorknob.

I take the argument seriously. His resume speaks for itself. It’s a lot of people outside of Realgm. This the only place I really see him get disrespected.

What's disrespected? Most here probably have Kobe top 15. That's likely similar to what you'll see anywhere on the internet

[MavsDirk41]

I think this thread is some sort of social experiment. I find it hard to believe that the OP is taking his own arguments seriously. Perpetuating this thread is tantamount to conversing with a doorknob.

I take the argument seriously. His resume speaks for itself. It’s a lot of people outside of Realgm. This the only place I really see him get disrespected.

From what i see “most people” on here properly rank Kobe and respect what he brought to the game. Incredible talent and the closet thing we will probably ever see to Jordan. I personally have him right outside the top 10 of all time. The PC board has some weird rankings of players from what ive seen but i think most people on the general board have him ranked properly. He obviously wasnt perfect and he only received 2 finals mvps out of the 5 championships because of Shaq. I think thats what hurts his cause for top 10. He was only the best player on his team for 2 championships (arguably).

[GreatWhiteStiff]

"It's unique and can't be measured, yet I measure it into the top 5 to 10 careers in NBA history range."

Either you can measure it or you can't. You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

Kobe was the best "bad shot maker", due to his absurdly elite balance and body control. The effect of this was that no team could ever be certain that they could stop Kobe from shooting under any circumstances and he would often take "bad" shots. This meant that the defensive coverage of him had to be different. Point of attack defenders had to stay on him and could not step back and help defenders had to shade him and even throw double/triple teams at him, which lead to favorable outcomes for the Lakers. This is what they used to call the Kobe assist but I’m not gonna get into that lol.

Every decision and action leads to a cascading set of decisions and actions. This is built up over a game, over a playoff series, over a season and over a career. LeBron James talked about this idea when he mentioned that over the course of a game, he is setting his opponents up with moves to make other moves more effective later in the game.

Just like in 2000 the blazers didn’t put a body on Shaq the most dominant ever at his peak because they were so focused on Kobe shooting, this lead to the famous alley.

So by shooting into double and triple team coverage and missing, Kobe was actually helping his team by letting them get offensive rebounds and easy buckets? Hahah I have never heard this defense of Kobe before! That is crazy to me.

I always thought Iverson had a lot of offensive rebounders that would capitalize on his misses. And he really knew how to miss FGs. Moreso than Kobe. I'd actually think he'd go attack knowing if he missed too strong the rebound would be picked up and put in frequently.

[dj20001]

I think the discussion around Kobe suffers in the same way discussion around other players with big "player-only" fanbases does, like LeBron, Jordan, Iverson, and Melo. These guys all have large groups of people who are fans principally of them as players as opposed to the teams they play for, and as such, this subset of their fanbases often make outrageous claims in favor of their player, often denigrating the efforts of their teammates.

That so many "Kobe-only" fans thrust him into the GOAT conversion, often with wild hyperbole, leads to a reflexive pushback in response that often becomes just as hyperbolic and toxic. Genuine discussion around Kobe is very hard to have as a result.

Broadly, I'd say the general pluses for Kobe are that he had great longevity as a top-10 or top-5 player in the league, that his playoff performance was largely robust (with a few notable exceptions as is the case for almost everyone), and that he proved it was possible to win a championship with him as the lead player. I'd say the cons can largely be aggregated into the fact that while he has a good statistical footprint, it generally falls short of where he's usually considered in an all-time sense. I'm not sure there are many (if any) career-spanning metrics that put him in the top 10 of all time, so those who want to put him there generally are swimming upstream against the data to make that argument.

You're saying current and former players are "Kobe-only" fans? Interesting

Are those guys trashing Kobe's teammates in order to prop up Kobe? Are they concocting wild narratives or cherry-picking data samples in order to prop him up?

Of course everyone is free to have an opinion on Kobe and where he ranks all-time. None of us could ever dream of having the sort of knowledge through experience that players have. My post was about why the discussion around Kobe (as well as the other players I listed) usually becomes toxic. This thread is yet another example of this, unfortunately.

The claims that "Kobe-only fans" are making aligns with those who have "knowledge through experience" though, as you stated.

"Trashing teammates" is a little harsh. Most of the time, that commentary comes in response to the propping up of a teammate to diminish Kobe's impact on winning haha. We're not going to sit here and act like Lamar was an All Star, that Gasol was seen an All-NBA player before his time in LA or that the 2010 version of Ron Artest is the version we saw during his Indy or Sacramento days. Acknowledging this isn't "trashing" at all.

[dj20001]

I think this thread is some sort of social experiment. I find it hard to believe that the OP is taking his own arguments seriously. Perpetuating this thread is tantamount to conversing with a doorknob.

I take the argument seriously. His resume speaks for itself. It’s a lot of people outside of Realgm. This the only place I really see him get disrespected.

From what i see “most people” on here properly rank Kobe and respect what he brought to the game. Incredible talent and the closet thing we will probably ever see to Jordan. I personally have him right outside the top 10 of all time. The PC board has some weird rankings of players from what ive seen but i think most people on the general board have him ranked properly. He obviously wasnt perfect and he only received 2 finals mvps out of the 5 championships because of Shaq. I think thats what hurts his cause for top 10. He was only the best player on his team for 2 championships (arguably).

It does. But the only people willing to go there, on record, typically due so in absence of acknowledging what Kobe did to help LA make the Finals during those championship seasons.

Had there been an award for MVP of the conference playoffs like we have now, Kobe would have won every year the Lakers made the Finals from 2000-2010