Jokic's teammates failed him...AGAIN.

[Special_Puppy]

Small sample Size, but
EPM WAR for Jokic: 3
EPM WAR for the Rest of the Nuggets: 1.3

so based on this metric, if you have 2 jokers on denver and play 2 vs 5 then they will dominate the opponents by 30 every game? LMAO
it's laughable how ridiculous these garbage stat is.

It means if the Nuggets consisted of Jokic+Another player of Jokic's caliber+Replacement level players to fill out the rest of the roster then the Nuggets would be much better off

[Cubbies2120]

Really? I think he failed his teammates more this time

34/19/7, including scoring 20 in the final 13 mins of the game...either scoring or assisting on all but 5 points in the final 16.5 minutes of gametime...

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the problem was NOT Jokic, or Murray in game 7.

It was the rest of the entire roster managing 21 points on 28 shots.

Outside of Jokic & Murray, here's the rest of the scoring in the game:
MPJ 7 points on 12 shots
KCP 5 points on 7 shots
Braun 5 points on 3 shots
Gordon 5 points on 5 shots

That's it, that's the list. Not gonna cut it against the best defensive team in the league...

When the Wolves make a run and Nuggets need baskets badly to stop the bleeding, Jokic failed repeatedly. We all saw it. He is MVP so this loss is on him more than anyone else. It might be fatigue issue for him and Murray but MVP is supposed to deliver in crunch moments.

So instead of 20 points in 13 minutes...are we expecting 30 points in 13 minutes? Shoot 100% from the field?

I'm confused...is 20 points in the final 13 minutes of a game, and assisting on 4 more (rest of team outside of that scoring 5 points in the final 16 minutes btw...) not MVP performance?

Or are you literally expecting him to score every single point for more than a full quarter?

[hardenASG13]

34/19/7, including scoring 20 in the final 13 mins of the game...either scoring or assisting on all but 5 points in the final 16.5 minutes of gametime...

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the problem was NOT Jokic, or Murray in game 7.

It was the rest of the entire roster managing 21 points on 28 shots.

Outside of Jokic & Murray, here's the rest of the scoring in the game:
MPJ 7 points on 12 shots
KCP 5 points on 7 shots
Braun 5 points on 3 shots
Gordon 5 points on 5 shots

That's it, that's the list. Not gonna cut it against the best defensive team in the league...

When the Wolves make a run and Nuggets need baskets badly to stop the bleeding, Jokic failed repeatedly. We all saw it. He is MVP so this loss is on him more than anyone else. It might be fatigue issue for him and Murray but MVP is supposed to deliver in crunch moments.

So instead of 20 points in 13 minutes...are we expecting 30 points in 13 minutes? Shoot 100% from the field?

I'm confused...is 20 points in the final 13 minutes of a game, and assisting on 4 more (rest of team outside of that scoring 5 points in the final 16 minutes btw...) not MVP performance?

Or are you literally expecting him to score every single point for more than a full quarter?

I think it's pretty clear what he's saying. While your numbers are correct, Jokic didn't do much to stop Minnesota from erasing the 20 point lead. That's MVP time, and he didn't do what an MVP is supposed to do. By the time he got it going in the last 13 minutes, the Wolves had erased the huge deficit in 1 quarter and had all the confidence in the world, riding it to a historic comeback win.

[nikster]

Murray played pretty well dropped 32
And the starting lineup was alright. They need to improve their bench but nuggets have a good team. Joker just didn't deliver against a team that might get slaughtered by the mavs.

Hell curry won with klay dropping like 5 points.
Lebron won with wade and bosh not contributing like Murray

Lebron and Curry won without their teammates delivering, they also failed without their teammates delivering.

You think Currys supporting cast in 2022 was any worse than Jokic last year? And what happened the next season...eliminated in play-in...

Curry definitely didn't have someone like 2023 Murray as 2nd option and they also faced a tougher route than the nuggets in 2022

Warriors supporting cast was horrible this season. Mostly due to Klay and Wiggins sucking again. And Draymond being crazy and also unavailable. I think they played better starting two rookies but you'll have to ask the warriors fans.

Joker is great it's not like I blame the loss on him. But all this talk about him being goat track and way better than any player since Jordan is crazy talk. He's up there top 5 since Jordans retirement. That's pretty damn good. Cause the others are in the top 10 all time.

Dont believe the Warriors route was tougher at all. Nuggets missing 2 max contracts and had some atrocious lineups out there, Memphis Ja went down, young Luka and Brunson I dont see as any better than the Suns were with KD. Celtics are a good team, but Miami beat them in 2023....Warriors didnt have a #2 like Murray but more balanced contribution, with a 6th man in Poole doing a lot of scoring off the bench

But year fair enough about the all time great discussion

[Snake3]

When the Wolves make a run and Nuggets need baskets badly to stop the bleeding, Jokic failed repeatedly. We all saw it. He is MVP so this loss is on him more than anyone else. It might be fatigue issue for him and Murray but MVP is supposed to deliver in crunch moments.

So instead of 20 points in 13 minutes...are we expecting 30 points in 13 minutes? Shoot 100% from the field?

I'm confused...is 20 points in the final 13 minutes of a game, and assisting on 4 more (rest of team outside of that scoring 5 points in the final 16 minutes btw...) not MVP performance?

Or are you literally expecting him to score every single point for more than a full quarter?

I think it's pretty clear what he's saying. While your numbers are correct, Jokic didn't do much to stop Minnesota from erasing the 20 point lead. That's MVP time, and he didn't do what an MVP is supposed to do. By the time he got it going in the last 13 minutes, the Wolves had erased the huge deficit in 1 quarter and had all the confidence in the world, riding it to a historic comeback win.

Exactly. This is when the MVP is suppose to be the MVP. And granted, he was good, but not good enough. This was the moment for a historical performance. But he settled for too many 3s, and he couldn't knock it down. He was wide open. But Minny gave him that shot. Jokic shot 0-3 from 3 in the 3rd. 2-6 overall. It wasn't good enough to stop the bleeding and it contributed to the game being lost overall.

Denver in general didn't have enough gas in the tank. But if they were to hit a few of those shots, they could've won. They don't need to make a crazy change, but a better bench would be nice. The rest of the players just gotta get better and make the open shots.

[cpower]

Small sample Size, but
EPM WAR for Jokic: 3
EPM WAR for the Rest of the Nuggets: 1.3

so based on this metric, if you have 2 jokers on denver and play 2 vs 5 then they will dominate the opponents by 30 every game? LMAO
it's laughable how ridiculous these garbage stat is.

It means if the Nuggets consisted of Jokic+Another player of Jokic's caliber+Replacement level players to fill out the rest of the roster then the Nuggets would be much better off

it is clearly some garbage level box score that was manipulated to feed into certain agenda. For example, if player A boxes out and Joker gets a free defensive rebound, player A dont get WAR but joker gets more WAR. Westbook broke the PER and Joker is doing the same. the inventor will make changes to the formula to make it appear less absurd but the idea itself is too flawed to be seriously considered

[srhcan]

34/19/7, including scoring 20 in the final 13 mins of the game...either scoring or assisting on all but 5 points in the final 16.5 minutes of gametime...

Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and say that the problem was NOT Jokic, or Murray in game 7.

It was the rest of the entire roster managing 21 points on 28 shots.

Outside of Jokic & Murray, here's the rest of the scoring in the game:
MPJ 7 points on 12 shots
KCP 5 points on 7 shots
Braun 5 points on 3 shots
Gordon 5 points on 5 shots

That's it, that's the list. Not gonna cut it against the best defensive team in the league...

When the Wolves make a run and Nuggets need baskets badly to stop the bleeding, Jokic failed repeatedly. We all saw it. He is MVP so this loss is on him more than anyone else. It might be fatigue issue for him and Murray but MVP is supposed to deliver in crunch moments.

So instead of 20 points in 13 minutes...are we expecting 30 points in 13 minutes? Shoot 100% from the field?

I'm confused...is 20 points in the final 13 minutes of a game, and assisting on 4 more (rest of team outside of that scoring 5 points in the final 16 minutes btw...) not MVP performance?

Or are you literally expecting him to score every single point for more than a full quarter?

the game was lost in 3rd quarter where Jokic only scored 4 points

[Special_Puppy]

so based on this metric, if you have 2 jokers on denver and play 2 vs 5 then they will dominate the opponents by 30 every game? LMAO
it's laughable how ridiculous these garbage stat is.

It means if the Nuggets consisted of Jokic+Another player of Jokic's caliber+Replacement level players to fill out the rest of the roster then the Nuggets would be much better off

it is clearly some garbage level box score that was manipulated to feed into certain agenda. For example, if player A boxes out and Joker gets a free defensive rebound, player A dont get WAR but joker gets more WAR. Westbook broke the PER and Joker is doing the same. the inventor will make changes to the formula to make it appear less absurd but the idea itself is too flawed to be seriously considered

EPM is pretty good! Probably the second best advanced stat out there https://dunksandthrees.com/blog/metric-comparison

[bledredwine]

Apparently 30 is the new 20.

The final score was 98 to 90...what league were you watching where scoring 1/3 of your team points lead to a 60 point final score in a close game? Even Detroit Spurs in the finals were consistently getting into the 70's. This was scoring like you might have seen with the bad boy pistons and jordan bulls.

The whole team sucked, and Jokic did too. Murray kept them in the first half.

That's one of the worst 34 points that I've seen.

And yes, 30 is the new 20... the difference is that his squad stunk it up much more.
Everyone underperformed, hence the low score, no excuses.

[dhsilv2]

Apparently 30 is the new 20.

The final score was 98 to 90...what league were you watching where scoring 1/3 of your team points lead to a 60 point final score in a close game? Even Detroit Spurs in the finals were consistently getting into the 70's. This was scoring like you might have seen with the bad boy pistons and jordan bulls.

The whole team sucked, and Jokic did too. Murray kept them in the first half.

That's one of the worst 34 points that I've seen.

And yes, 30 is the new 20... the difference is that his squad stunk it up much more.
Everyone underperformed, hence the low score, no excuses.

30 is the new 20? Wait so now scoring is harder then in the past?

[bledredwine]

The final score was 98 to 90...what league were you watching where scoring 1/3 of your team points lead to a 60 point final score in a close game? Even Detroit Spurs in the finals were consistently getting into the 70's. This was scoring like you might have seen with the bad boy pistons and jordan bulls.

The whole team sucked, and Jokic did too. Murray kept them in the first half.

That's one of the worst 34 points that I've seen.

And yes, 30 is the new 20... the difference is that his squad stunk it up much more.
Everyone underperformed, hence the low score, no excuses.

30 is the new 20? Wait so now scoring is harder then in the past?

The 35 point game from Jokic was poor. It's the equivalent of a 90s player putting up 20 on okay efficiency.

Yes, I could have phrased it the opposite way as well. But you know exactly what I am saying so lets put the pointless semantics aside.

[dhsilv2]

The whole team sucked, and Jokic did too. Murray kept them in the first half.

That's one of the worst 34 points that I've seen.

And yes, 30 is the new 20... the difference is that his squad stunk it up much more.
Everyone underperformed, hence the low score, no excuses.

30 is the new 20? Wait so now scoring is harder then in the past?

The 35 point game from Jokic was poor. It's the equivalent of a 90s player putting up 20 on okay efficiency.

Yes, I could have phrased it the opposite way as well. But you know exactly what I am saying so lets put the pointless semantics aside.

That's just a silly statement. Jokic's team scored 90 points and it took 98 to win that game by the Wolves. In no world is scoring 34 of your teams 90 points the equivalent of scoring 20 in a similar scoring game. He also did it at better efficiency than you're giving him credit for in the context of a 90 point team effort. The wolves team is also better defensively than a great many quality playoff teams in the 90's despite modern rules and offense.

Number to add context.

The series was played at an 89.6 pace. Denver scored 97.6 points per game and the Wolves 102.7

The 1991 bulls beat the Pistons with a pace of 87.8 scoring 106.8 and giving up 95.3

1992 bulls in the finals vs the blazers, 92.3 pace bulls averaged 104 and the blazers 96.7

This series played out just like a 1990's playoff series in terms of pace and scoring. 34 is 34...

[Edrees]

Jokic with another all-star would be trouble for the rest of the league.

Basically this.

Gotta get more depth this summer, at minimum.

It's not that simple. You get an offensive all star and your salary is tied to that and now you don't have good defenders and length at all the other positions. Not having another max level player allowed the Nuggets to be a deep team offense+ defense during their title run.

Bradley Beal is an all star, ask the suns how trading their defensive depth for him worked out.

If Denver trades for another all star, they will have to fill out the roster with one dimension players who can't defend. It doesn't necessarily make the Nuggets better than they are now.

[monopoman]

The fact that Jokic already has 1 championship win with a team that without him might miss the playoffs attests to his greatness. This Denver team outside of Jokic is not great period and anyone that claims otherwise is being ridiculous.

As I said earlier it's not a weird thing that their one championship win was the one year where Murray looked like a top 10 guy, **** with a guy like Dwayne Wade in his prime in place of Murray they might be seeking 2-3 championships in a row. The fact that the Denver ownership after Jokic got them a championship didn't try to make an all-in move to try to go for a realistic two or three in the next few years is a joke.

**** they didn't even try to make minor upgrades that might have been the difference in a close series like this.

[Cubbies2120]

When the Wolves make a run and Nuggets need baskets badly to stop the bleeding, Jokic failed repeatedly. We all saw it. He is MVP so this loss is on him more than anyone else. It might be fatigue issue for him and Murray but MVP is supposed to deliver in crunch moments.

So instead of 20 points in 13 minutes...are we expecting 30 points in 13 minutes? Shoot 100% from the field?

I'm confused...is 20 points in the final 13 minutes of a game, and assisting on 4 more (rest of team outside of that scoring 5 points in the final 16 minutes btw...) not MVP performance?

Or are you literally expecting him to score every single point for more than a full quarter?

the game was lost in 3rd quarter where Jokic only scored 4 points

The game was lost in the 3rd quarter where the Wolves ended it with a 1 point lead? Interesting take.

So just to clarify, it's Jokic's fault that his teammates could only manage 5 points in almost 17 minutes w/o him directly creating points for them?

Doesn't this imply that his team is garbage around him if they can't create any buckets alone? 24 of 29 points created by Jokic...and y'all expecting more...wild.

[dhsilv2]

Jokic with another all-star would be trouble for the rest of the league.

Basically this.

Gotta get more depth this summer, at minimum.

It's not that simple. You get an offensive all star and your salary is tied to that and now you don't have good defenders and length at all the other positions. Not having another max level player allowed the Nuggets to be a deep team offense+ defense during their title run.

Bradley Beal is an all star, ask the suns how trading their defensive depth for him worked out.

If Denver trades for another all star, they will have to fill out the roster with one dimension players who can't defend. It doesn't necessarily make the Nuggets better than they are now.

Assuming they keep Murray, if they get an allstar he'd have to be a two way type. Not a Beal type guy. That said the team has to get depth...especially to give Jokic some rest. They might have some young guys on the bench who can step into bigger roles next year already. So their lack of depth might correct itself to some degree. They still need that back up big and a point would be awfully nice. Braun looks like a legit rotation guy already. Now if they can just somehow get Watson or one of their other early 20's guys to make the next leap.

[hyper316]

Trade for Bruce Brown back please (raptor fan here)

[Sixers in 4]

The problem wasn't Jokic teammates. The problem was as the MVP he was supposed to be the best player on the court and he wasn't Ant was.

His lack of ability to alter shots at the rim has and always will be a huge problem it is really hard to build a team that can hold together defensively without having a guy with having an interior presence to alter or block shots around the rim.

That has always been the achilles heel of the Nuggets and honestly I don't see how they fix it. They just have to hope they can outscore everyone to the point where it doesn't matter.

[Special_Puppy]

The problem wasn't Jokic teammates. The problem was as the MVP he was supposed to be the best player on the court and he wasn't Ant was.

His lack of ability to alter shots at the rim has and always will be a huge problem it is really hard to build a team that can hold together defensively without having a guy with having an interior presence to alter or block shots around the rim.

That has always been the achilles heel of the Nuggets and honestly I don't see how they fix it. They just have to hope they can outscore everyone to the point where it doesn't matter.

Nuggets had the 6th best defense in the NBA this year
https://www.pbpstats.com/team-leverage-summary/nba?Season=2023-24&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

[Sedale Threatt]

The fact that Jokic already has 1 championship win with a team that without him might miss the playoffs attests to his greatness. This Denver team outside of Jokic is not great period and anyone that claims otherwise is being ridiculous.

As I said earlier it's not a weird thing that their one championship win was the one year where Murray looked like a top 10 guy, **** with a guy like Dwayne Wade in his prime in place of Murray they might be seeking 2-3 championships in a row. The fact that the Denver ownership after Jokic got them a championship didn't try to make an all-in move to try to go for a realistic two or three in the next few years is a joke.

**** they didn't even try to make minor upgrades that might have been the difference in a close series like this.

I forgot how shtty Porter was last year. I do think Murray's non All-Star status is kind of flukey. He's had some epic playoff runs, including last year, and could have easily made a few barring circumstances.

But yeah, if we sat down and assessed championship supporting casts, Denver's going to be near the bottom. Gordon's a good two-way player but he can't shoot and you never know what you're going to get from him offensively on any given night. As a Lakers fan, I know full well the feast-or-famine nature of the KCP experience. And so on.

Magic's my favorite player of all time, and holy sht some of the rosters he played on. When James Worthy is your third-best player and you're bringing Michael Cooper off the bench, you are absolutely loaded. Jokic is at the far opposite end of that spectrum.

Denver is probably going to feel like they squandered a huge opportunity to win more when he retires, but they should also feel great they at least got the one they did.