RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 2)

[RRR3]

Someone's upset! That poll of NBA players where it's basically even between LBJ and MJ eally riled the poor guy up

Why so ?. Of course the poll results on here are not unanimous, but pretty impressive given LeBron is the current player and favour of the month and you have actually posted that even current active players are not putting him ahead ?. Do you think that is going to improve with the passage of time when LeBron and all those current active players are retired ?. .

I mean there is just going to be more and more people who just weren't old enough to watch prime Jordan. Someone who was 18 at the time of the 1998 finals is 44 now.

Yeah idk why people can't see the writing on the wall and insist Jordan is unanimous GOAT or anywhere close to it, or will remain so. He might remain the most popular answer but it's certainly going to continue to be a debate.

[michaelm]

Why so ?. Of course the poll results on here are not unanimous, but pretty impressive given LeBron is the current player and favour of the month and you have actually posted that even current active players are not putting him ahead ?. Do you think that is going to improve with the passage of time when LeBron and all those current active players are retired ?. .

I mean there is just going to be more and more people who just weren't old enough to watch prime Jordan. Someone who was 18 at the time of the 1998 finals is 44 now.

Yeah idk why people can't see the writing on the wall and insist Jordan is unanimous GOAT or anywhere close to it, or will remain so. He might remain the most popular answer but it's certainly going to continue to be a debate.

Of course Jordan being unanimous GOAT is over snd those saying otherwise were at best using poetic license, but again you are reduced to disputing details, short of winning another title at age 40 as a major contributor the number of people rating LeBron as GOAt ahead of Jordan would seem unlikely to increase either.

[RRR3]

I mean there is just going to be more and more people who just weren't old enough to watch prime Jordan. Someone who was 18 at the time of the 1998 finals is 44 now.

Yeah idk why people can't see the writing on the wall and insist Jordan is unanimous GOAT or anywhere close to it, or will remain so. He might remain the most popular answer but it's certainly going to continue to be a debate.

Of course Jordan being unanimous GOAT is over snd those saying otherwise were at best using poetic license, but again you are reduced to disputing details, short of winning another title at age 40 as a major contributor the number of people rating LeBron as GOAt ahead of Jordan would seem unlikely to increase either.

Nah It's going to keep increasing because people who watched MJ will die off and people will be born hearing about LeBron as he's more recent and people closer in age to them will say he's GOAT. Might as well accept it. It'll happen to LeBron too, maybe pretty soon even if Wemby has anything to say about it.

[michaelm]

Yeah idk why people can't see the writing on the wall and insist Jordan is unanimous GOAT or anywhere close to it, or will remain so. He might remain the most popular answer but it's certainly going to continue to be a debate.

Of course Jordan being unanimous GOAT is over snd those saying otherwise were at best using poetic license, but again you are reduced to disputing details, short of winning another title at age 40 as a major contributor the number of people rating LeBron as GOAt ahead of Jordan would seem unlikely to increase either.

Nah It's going to keep increasing because people who watched MJ will die off and people will be born hearing about LeBron as he's more recent and people closer in age to them will say he's GOAT. Might as well accept it. It'll happen to LeBron too, maybe pretty soon even if Wemby has anything to say about it.

Jordan was more of a cultural phenomenon though, which will take a long time to fade. I was commissioned to buy Air Jordans for my nephews who weren’t even basketball fans on a trip to the US when they were kids.

[SlimShady83]

Watch on YouTube

;t=31s

[michaelm]

Watch on YouTube

;t=31s

I am on the Jordan side of the debate, but this video illustrates you can be selective about the past to favour your argument as you choose.

Perhaps ironically you have to argue about team performance and LeBron taking teams further than they had any right to go to favour LeBron’s early career over Jordan’s.

I definitely have LeBron as the GOAT floor raiser but Jordan as the better ceiling raiser. As I believe Jordan has said himself he had to learn how to win, which involved adopting a more team approach after which he couldn’t stop winning

[bledredwine]

You picked cumulative stats, how shocking! I’m talking per game and how high a level a player performs throughout a season.

Jordan is first in history in all of those. He simply played at a higher level Funny how lebron has to use longevity and cumulative to lead in any of it. Then there are the obscure stats lebron fans pick to try and dance around the fact. We can dissect this if you’d enjoy that!

No, he's not.

Jordan's best season in PER is 6th all time. The last 4 Jokic seasons and 08-09 LeBron are better
Exact same for BPM
Jordan's best single season win share is 9th all time

Playoffs single season:
Jordan's best VORP season Is 7th all time. 3 of the top 4 are LeBron. The other 3 ahead of Jordan are Duncan, Bird, Jokic.
Jordan's best BPM is 2nd all time, behind LeBron.
Jordan's best win share was 9th all time, LeBron had 4 seasons better than that
Win Share/48: Jordan's best was 4th all time, with .3325, #1 is LeBron .3994
PER: Jordan's best was 8th all time, behind two separate seasons by LeBron.

Only 1 player has led all players on both teams in points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals in any series in NBA playoff history. LeBron. Who did that in the 2016 NBA Finals to beat a 73 win team. That series, beating that team, is when he became the GOAT.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-becomes-first-player-on-record-to-lead-series-in-points-rebounds-assists-steals-and-blocks

Will he always be the GOAT? I sure hope not. How bad is it for the sport of players don't keep getting better?.

Jordan was the GOAT before he won 6 championships, even though several players had more championships than him at the time and one important one has many more than Jordan. Jordan is no longer the GOAT after that 2016 finals.

Top PER

Jordan 31.71
James 31.67
Jordan 31.63
James 31.59
Jordan 31.18
Jordan 31.14
James 31.10


Top 5 seasons BPM
Jordan James
13.0 13.2
12.0 11.8
11.9 11.7
11.2 10.9
11.2 10.9

Top 5 seasons win shares
Jordan James
21.2 20.3
20.4 19.3
20.3 18.5
19.8 15.6
19.0 14.5

Top 5 seasons DWS
Jordan James
6.2 6.5
6.1 5.7
5.6 5.3
5.4 5.2
5.4 4.7


Top 5 seasons VORP
Jordan James
12.5 11.8
11.4 10.3
10.8 9.9
10.6 9.8
10.4 9.4


Jordan regular season winning pct 65.9
James regular season winning pct 64.5

Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5
James playoff winning pct 63.8

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

Jordan is the greatest player i have ever seen and he clears James in accolades and advanced stats

This is why I always post in and love these threads. Jordan’s stacked the deck and it’s almost unfair to debate from his side. You can literally debate 5-6 or more posters without much effort. It gets really unfair when you include best seasons lists and highest performances lists.

Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time. James, 0.

Jordan has 19 out of the top 100 gamescores, James 3. Defensive consistency isn’t even close nor is DRTG.

[michaelm]

No, he's not.

Jordan's best season in PER is 6th all time. The last 4 Jokic seasons and 08-09 LeBron are better
Exact same for BPM
Jordan's best single season win share is 9th all time

Playoffs single season:
Jordan's best VORP season Is 7th all time. 3 of the top 4 are LeBron. The other 3 ahead of Jordan are Duncan, Bird, Jokic.
Jordan's best BPM is 2nd all time, behind LeBron.
Jordan's best win share was 9th all time, LeBron had 4 seasons better than that
Win Share/48: Jordan's best was 4th all time, with .3325, #1 is LeBron .3994
PER: Jordan's best was 8th all time, behind two separate seasons by LeBron.

Only 1 player has led all players on both teams in points, assists, rebounds, blocks and steals in any series in NBA playoff history. LeBron. Who did that in the 2016 NBA Finals to beat a 73 win team. That series, beating that team, is when he became the GOAT.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nba/news/lebron-james-becomes-first-player-on-record-to-lead-series-in-points-rebounds-assists-steals-and-blocks

Will he always be the GOAT? I sure hope not. How bad is it for the sport of players don't keep getting better?.

Jordan was the GOAT before he won 6 championships, even though several players had more championships than him at the time and one important one has many more than Jordan. Jordan is no longer the GOAT after that 2016 finals.

Top PER

Jordan 31.71
James 31.67
Jordan 31.63
James 31.59
Jordan 31.18
Jordan 31.14
James 31.10


Top 5 seasons BPM
Jordan James
13.0 13.2
12.0 11.8
11.9 11.7
11.2 10.9
11.2 10.9

Top 5 seasons win shares
Jordan James
21.2 20.3
20.4 19.3
20.3 18.5
19.8 15.6
19.0 14.5

Top 5 seasons DWS
Jordan James
6.2 6.5
6.1 5.7
5.6 5.3
5.4 5.2
5.4 4.7


Top 5 seasons VORP
Jordan James
12.5 11.8
11.4 10.3
10.8 9.9
10.6 9.8
10.4 9.4


Jordan regular season winning pct 65.9
James regular season winning pct 64.5

Jordan playoff winning pct 66.5
James playoff winning pct 63.8

Jordan against 60 win teams in the playoffs 7-2
James against 60 win teams in the playoffs 3-5

Jordan is the greatest player i have ever seen and he clears James in accolades and advanced stats

This is why I always post in and love these threads. Jordan’s stacked the deck and it’s almost unfair to debate from his side. You can literally debate 5-6 or more posters without much effort. It gets really unfair when you include best seasons lists and highest performances lists.

Jordan has 7 of the top 10 playoff scoring averages of all time. James, 0.

Jordan has 19 out of the top 100 gamescores, James 3. Defensive consistency isn’t even close nor is DRTG.

Back to LeBron beating the 2016 Warriors I see in the post to which you replied, who were obviously not even the best GSW team ever, that being the 2017 team who presented him with rather more problems.

[Djoker]

Yeah idk why people can't see the writing on the wall and insist Jordan is unanimous GOAT or anywhere close to it, or will remain so. He might remain the most popular answer but it's certainly going to continue to be a debate.

Of course Jordan being unanimous GOAT is over snd those saying otherwise were at best using poetic license, but again you are reduced to disputing details, short of winning another title at age 40 as a major contributor the number of people rating LeBron as GOAt ahead of Jordan would seem unlikely to increase either.

Nah It's going to keep increasing because people who watched MJ will die off and people will be born hearing about LeBron as he's more recent and people closer in age to them will say he's GOAT. Might as well accept it. It'll happen to LeBron too, maybe pretty soon even if Wemby has anything to say about it.

Yep. What you say is true which is that as older fans die out, the resulting demographic shift will cause newer GOAT candidates to be favoured. However, that is already kind of working against Lebron too as you alluded to. There's tons of young fans today that haven't even seen prime Lebron. Just the old Lakers' version who misses games, takes possessions off and quite frankly looks far inferior to the likes of Jokic, Giannis, SGA etc. So while GOAT debates between MJ and LBJ will rage on, try making a poll on something like "Better Peak: Lebron or Jokic". You'll be surprised how many will go with Jokic. Heck many on this board are already proclaiming Jokic as the offensive GOAT even though he has just 1 title and hasn't proven himself enough yet. So it's already happening to Lebron.

The only way for Lebron to make a jump in the GOAT debate is to win more. People can cry about counting rings till the cows come home but that's reality. Every sport is primarily about winning, basketball included. And many casuals don't even consider the context of those rings so even if Lebron won a few as a clear #2 player behind AD, he'd be held in higher esteem by the general fan base.

[pipfan]

Let's see if we can figure out the consensus on who's a top 10 guy of all time, as of today (Jokic/Giannis/Wemby/Luka all obviously have a shot at it)

I will start with this-KAJ, MJ, LBJ, Shaq, Duncan really have to be in the top 10
Few of us saw Russell and Wilt play, but let's have both of them as locks as well, somewhere in the top 10

That leaves 3 spots-who do you have?

For me it's Magic, Bird, Hakeem, with Kobe/Curry just outside. Who you got?

[Rainwater]

I feel like this topic has been beaten to death

[bkkrh]

Well I'll exclude current players besides Steph and Lebron. Both of them are at a point in their career where I think it's save to say they're 100% in it, no matter what happens, while for all other current players it still depends a bit how the rest of their career plays out. Jokic is definitely the closest for me to enter in that conversation at the moment.

So I have MJ, Lebron, KAJ, Bill Russell, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Hakeem, Curry.

Next woukd then be Kobe, Shaq, Big O.

[Sign5]

Came in expecting



Leaving dissapointed

[bisme37]

Is this the same topic as the big-ass stickied GOAT thread at the top of the board or something else is going on here? I'm super groggy and almost merged it but maybe I'm confused lol.

[wojoaderge]

Mikan

[DS17]

How is KG a top 10 GOAT? I dont get it, lol.

[shi-woo]

I feel like this topic has been beaten to death

And it will continue to, but at least it has more juice lately given the GOATS that came out of left field the past couple of years, but also because the way we evaluate this era compared to others is going to be different.

Can you imagine if Embiid was a 2x MVP Karl Malone of his era

If Jokic only wins one, but is a 4x MVP, where does he rank?

Giannis wins a title and he's had a similar career than Hakeem.

Oddly enough LeBron, Curry, Harden, Kawhii, Westbrook and KD can all add to their legacies. KD and Curry are borderline Top 10 for most people

Likewise, there has been a huge emphasis on league parity, and we aren't going to see teams like the 80' Lakers Celtics that played for a decade together, or teams like the 2010 Heat/Warriors given the 2nd apron. We've already seen threads of people starting to wonder how much a ring in this era compares to others, given the talent level and euro invasion.

I think more than ever individual awards are being brought into question, Titles mean the most they've ever had, and longevity is practically a must at this point.

I hate to say it, because it won't be true or right, but it's just a matter of time before Bird and Magic start to fall out of the Top Spots, and my mind can't even comprehend that. These guys both had their careers cut short, and both gave a full shift in college. As we have more and more guys playing these hyper successful 20 year careers with 14 year primes, it's going to be hard keeping those guys that high.

Do we appreciate guards who just looked incredible and had an immaculate career (Kobe), or do we prefer guards who changed the way people view the game and had an immaculate career (Steph). Do we prefer the best big man in the league who bounced around to different teams, and was known as the most dominant force (Shaq) or the Big that stayed with the small market team that drafted him and changed the way centers play being the most dominant offensive engine we've ever seen (Jokic)

Steph and Jokic are the only guys even remotely close to the Top 10, and they both can get there soon. If Joker wins one, I would personally take him over Shaq, and that would bump Kobe out of my Top 10 as I value Steph's career more.

MJ, LeBron, Bird, Magic, Kaj, Tim, Hakeem, Shaq,Steph, Kobe.

That's my Top 10 and think it's solid. I only include years after the merger.

[Johnny Tomala]

1 - MJ
2 - Kareem
3 - Russell
4 - LBJ
5 - Wilt
6 - Magic
7 - Bird
8 - Hakeem
9 - Duncan
10 - Shaq

My top 10, nothing changed in recent years.

[EmpireFalls]

Russell and Wilt always ruin these conversations bc it’s so hard to compare them to today.

[Lalouie]

just say "AFTER russell, kareem, bird, magic, and mj", and get on with the obsession

in fact there should be a top10 for before/after 2000
otherwise a top10 makes almost no sense