The 'Jokic has no help' narrative sure came and went

[scrabbarista]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

Aaron Gordon's Before and After - and Russell Westbrook's - is crazy, too.

You can't recall because there isn't one.

Whoops, someone beat me to it.

[RRR3]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

[michaelm]

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

So a case exists that they made him better as well ?. That would seem to be a necessity if a team of his is going to be successful, he needs complementary pieces, which doesn’t have to be a problem in a team game. I don’t really follow the Nuggets closely, but he seems to be a guy who just turns up and plays with the roster he is given, then goes back to Serbia to ride his horses when the season is over, which I guess is admirable in general but may be problematic if the FO is not very competent.

[Los_29]

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

The fact you’re resorting to childish remarks tells me you’re incapable of looking at this objectively. “Your hero” lol. I never said they weren’t good players but the best they’ve looked was with Denver. KCP was pretty inefficient with his previous teams. Brown was efficient in Brooklyn but on less volume. Gordon clearly revamped his career in Denver and Westbrook had been a woefully inefficient player the past few years. Now he’s not.

There is no other player in the league that has carried his team as much as Jokic has.

[Raps in 4]

but no player is making other players hit shots

Jokic is literally doing that, by putting players in the optimal position to score with his passing. His gravity also draws defenders away from teammates.

[Andri]

IMO it's funny how some people that can't understand multi season advanced analytics, and claim that they don't need it because they are supposed to 'understand' the game. Yet they don't understand why Jokic is a positive in defense.

Jokic is not the kind of Gobert defensive presence. We know it. But he is excellent at things that improves defense outcome.

First, offense. If you are so good at leading such an efficient offense, it impacts also defense. More efficiency means less easy opportunities to score on the other side. I guess it is easy to understand. Secondly, he is superb at defensive rebounding. Yes, it is very sexy to talk about blocks, but securing defensive rebounds is a fundamental aspect of defense. Lastly, he is above average at one to one post defense, and he reads very well plays, anticipating, that's why he also ranks so high in deflections for example.

[RRR3]

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

So a case exists that they made him better as well ?. That would seem to be a necessity if a team of his is going to be successful, he needs complementary pieces, which doesn’t have to be a problem in a team game. I don’t really follow the Nuggets closely, but he seems to be a guy who just turns up and plays with the roster he is given, then goes back to Serbia to ride his horses when the season is over, which I guess is admirable in general but may be problematic if the FO is not very competent.

No, I'm not giving them credit for Jokic's abilities. Players across the board will play more efficiently with better rosters obviously, but giving another player credit for someone else's abilities is just weird af to me. MJ fans are always doing it with Pippen and it's just not rooted in reality. Idk why it's supposed to be a revelation that KCP was his most efficient when he played on teams that were contenders and less efficient when he played on the **** Pistons or zero spacing in 2025 Magic.

[RRR3]

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

The fact you’re resorting to childish remarks tells me you’re incapable of looking at this objectively. “Your hero” lol. I never said they weren’t good players but the best they’ve looked was with Denver. KCP was pretty inefficient with his previous teams. Brown was efficient in Brooklyn but on less volume. Gordon clearly revamped his career in Denver and Westbrook had been a woefully inefficient player the past few years. Now he’s not.

There is no other player in the league that has carried his team as much as Jokic has.

KCP was not inefficient with his previous teams, if you're gonna make a case for Jokic you have to at least tell the truth. KCP was above average for efficiency league wide every year before he played iwth Jokic since 2017-18. Unless you mean he was inefficient when he was a young developing player on the horrible Pistons in which case I'm amazed you think that proves anything

[RRR3]

but no player is making other players hit shots

Jokic is literally doing that, by putting players in the optimal position to score with his passing. His gravity also draws defenders away from teammates.

Yes he's literally making their shots go in, not the guys shooting them

[tsherkin]

That is not true, and even if it was true, Jokic brings enough offensively that he can step out of the court on defense and people should still expect the rest of the team to be better because they are doing jack **** on offense without him. In other words, you cant expect a single player to carry both your offense and defense. Most of Jokics teammates are awful defensively to the point they would make Wembenyama look questionable. If they were offensively talented like Curry then you could let it slide and say, well maybe its redundant to have so many good offensive player that cant play great defense and maybe it would be easier to replace Jokic with a rim running, rim protector. But even then it would be a terrible idea because Jokic with Curry would outgun anyone in history.

So again, if you are one of those people that thinks that no team can win a championship without a good rim protector, well you have literally been disproven.

Murray is jack **** on offense without him? Murray put up All NBA numbers on their only title run, and he just put up a damn double nickel. You can't score 55 solely from getting spot up 3s off of Jokic passes.

He's a very gifted offensive player who is capable of big nights when he gets hot. He's also got very questionable IQ and shot selection and is wildly inconsistent, hence a career scoring average of 18ppg and a career high season of 21ppg despite playing his whole career as a lead guard. He is not someone you can ever trust to carry an offense consistently.

No doubt he can be devastating on his day. Consistency is the problem (and durability), not talent.

Murray's okay. He's like a fringe, occasional AS type of talent. With his size, he struggles to get to the rim, so he's heavily reliant upon his jumper, which makes him streaky as hell. He is also a slow starter, and he's had a bunch of injuries which have limited him. When he's on, he's great. He's around a 40% 3pt shooter when he's clicking, and on decent volume, which is quite good. His short game isn't amazing, but his shooting ability from like the bottom of the circle on up is quite good. And again, that's how he gets into trouble and why he has no real consistency, right? He isn't the guy who creates tons of shots for others, he isn't the guy who brings it the same way every night. When his J is falling, he's dangerous. Otherwise, meh.

That's just who he is. A good player, but limited. His health has been more of an issue than anything else with his play, and his J has been clicking since December. And Denver has needed a little more breadth and depth of talent. MPJ has rediscovered finishing in close and is getting more shots there than he did last year. Christian Braun has stepped up to add some extra punch, which is also helping. And of course, Westbrook has added a dynamic to the team with his north-south pressure and passing, while tailoring his shot diet so he's been pretty efficient on lower volume. So all of that is really clicking right now, and positions the Nuggets to look pretty good come playoff time.

You don't NEED a Shaq/Kobe dynamic to be competitive. It helps, but the spread on the Nuggets is pretty good right now, and of course Jokic has been insane. But he also has loads of options to pass to, moving around, spotting up, just being in places where he can get them the ball. So that's been awesome to watch, and it leaves their offense really, really nasty. Plus, Jokic himself has been more assertive. I think we're watching him in his "F YOU, IM DOING IT" phase.

[hardenASG13]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

Aaron Gordon's Before and After - and Russell Westbrook's - is crazy, too.

You can't recall because there isn't one.

Whoops, someone beat me to it.

This stuff is nonsense. All superstars make their role players better and always have. Let's look at a guy often criticized on this board, Allen Iverson. What did Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, Theo Ratliff, and George lynch do before and after playing with Iverson? They all played their best ball of their career with him.

As for Gordon, I see this alot here, that Jokic has elevated him because his field goal percentage has been noticeably better in Denver. Could the fact he was playing as a miscast number one option most of his time in Orlando have played a role there? Is going from the first option to the 4th option generally healthy for shooting percentages? Really magic stuff!

[michaelm]

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

So a case exists that they made him better as well ?. That would seem to be a necessity if a team of his is going to be successful, he needs complementary pieces, which doesn’t have to be a problem in a team game. I don’t really follow the Nuggets closely, but he seems to be a guy who just turns up and plays with the roster he is given, then goes back to Serbia to ride his horses when the season is over, which I guess is admirable in general but may be problematic if the FO is not very competent.

No, I'm not giving them credit for Jokic's abilities. Players across the board will play more efficiently with better rosters obviously, but giving another player credit for someone else's abilities is just weird af to me. MJ fans are always doing it with Pippen and it's just not rooted in reality. Idk why it's supposed to be a revelation that KCP was his most efficient when he played on teams that were contenders and less efficient when he played on the **** Pistons or zero spacing in 2025 Magic.

I was intending to promote the value of team play rather than suggesting that Jokic took the shots for them. I do think players can be more valuable offensively next to a highly elite offensive player particularly one with with multilevel skills such as Jokic, including the call someone made which I liked that he is a very good tall if slow point guard. He seems to mostly choose what is the best option for the team as well. My point was actually the other way, that those guys gave him defensive help which he needed.

[tsherkin]

We’ve all seen how Bruce Brown and KCP have played since they left Denver. It hasn’t been pretty. I can’t recall ever seeing a player that elevates players as much as Jokic does.

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

No one hates Jokic fans, but there's a bunch of pushback against Jokic for no reason which does get addressed rather often.

With KCP, the shooting ability was there. We saw it when he was in LA, after all. He is a roleplayer; he needs others to create for him. That's what happens when you have Lebron or Jokic drawing attention and getting you the ball. It obviously wasn't just Jokic, given the years of history KCP had previously in his career.

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

He had some fantastic seasons for the Lakers, too.

[MavsDirk41]

This is why people hate Jokic fans. KCP has been a really good role player for a long time, most of it without Jokic, but because he's having an off shooting year so far people will claim Jokic made him And Bruce Brown had his best statistical season WITHOUT Jokic, so...

People hate Jokic fans? That’s actually pretty disturbing. lol.

Aaron Gordon is another player whose career got elevated by Jokic. Westbrook has had a resurgence.

Bruce Brown shot 40% from three in Brooklyn but on lower volume. KCP had his most efficient years in Denver.

Bruce Brown was more efficient and his best PER, BPM, VORP in Brooklyn. Giving Jokic credit for him is not rooted in reality. KCP was really good on the Lakers too, posting marginally better efficiency with the Nuggets doesn't mean Jokic "made" him into a good player when he already was. Stop putting down good players to make your hero look better, he didn't make them who they were. It's a team game, but no player is making other players hit shots or play good defense.

Giving Jokic credit for the play of Bruce Brown, KCP, Westbrook, and any other player on the Nuggets is reality. Look at Westbrook this year, when was the last time he fit into a system like he is this year? Remember him in LA? Getting roasted every night. Jokic makes everyone around him better. Jokic is not my hero but i can respect the fact that he is one of a handful of players in nba history who can bring out the best in his teammates. He is the modern day Larry Bird.

[tsherkin]

This stuff is nonsense. All superstars make their role players better and always have. Let's look at a guy often criticized on this board, Allen Iverson. What did Aaron Mckie, Eric Snow, Theo Ratliff, and George lynch do before and after playing with Iverson? They all played their best ball of their career with him.

Aaron McKie played 24 more NBA games in his career after leaving Philly, so he's an odd mention.

Eric Snow played the last few seasons of his career with Lebron, and the Cavs didn't have much need of him on-ball, so his production was lower. Ratliff was unhealthy most of his career, but routinely in DPOY conversations, had a couple shot-blocking titles without Iverson... and then his health fell apart even worse in Portland in his 30s and he scraped along until he retired. George Lynch was the same before, during and after Iverson: a weak-shooting defensive roleplayer

Not really a ton of Iverson elevating those guys. Philly's offense was routinely pretty bad. 97-06, Philly was a negative offense every season except 01 (+0.6) and 03 (+1.4). They won with defense, and the odd scoring explosion from AI. They dragged along bleh offenses and only won as their D improved. They were mostly a -4 defense under Larry Brown, and faded after 03.

As for Gordon, I see this alot here, that Jokic has elevated him because his field goal percentage has been noticeably better in Denver. Could the fact he was playing as a miscast number one option most of his time in Orlando have played a role there? Is going from the first option to the 4th option generally healthy for shooting percentages? Really magic stuff!

Yeah, his role has been a big part of it. The massive uptick in passing support on his shots is a huge factor as well, of course, and that centers around Jokic's specific abilities. The extra 1-3 FGA/g Gordon was taking in Orlando weren't really the major problem, though, it was more that him initiating his own offense on-ball wasn't ideal. The massive spike he has in shots at the rim in Denver, on the other hand, and how much less he shoots beyond 10 feet...

You can't separate Jokic out from that. It's specifically the way he impacts others, allowing them to move around and receive the ball in their best places. That is explicitly the benefit of a high-end playmaker. If AG had gone from like 17+ FGA/g down to the 8-11 FGA/g he takes, that'd be one thing, but that wasn't the case. Jokic is having an OBVIOUS impact on Gordon's efficiency. It isn't really a contestable point. The specific degree to which that is the case is a conversation piece, for sure, but denying Jokic's impact would just be non-sensical.

[Bergmaniac]

As for Gordon, I see this alot here, that Jokic has elevated him because his field goal percentage has been noticeably better in Denver. Could the fact he was playing as a miscast number one option most of his time in Orlando have played a role there? Is going from the first option to the 4th option generally healthy for shooting percentages? Really magic stuff!

He was almost never the first option in Orlando, there was like half a season when we were tanking when we tried this and it was great for getting losses, but apart from that he was clearly behind Vucevic in the pecking order on offense, usually behind Fournier too, and often even behind Terrence Ross.

And Jokic has elevated him offensive performace massively, that's an obvious fact, I don't know why we are even arguing this. He is getting much easier shots with him than before. Last year more than half of his shots were at the rim. When he was with us and was taking a significant amount of shots that percentage was never above 36% and was down to 28% in the season before the trade. The number of dunks he has had has also increased a lot since he joined Denver (178 last year, 171 the year before, while his highest number in his Magic seasons was 104). He's also heavily reduced the number of midrange shots he takes (something he was never good at) because he doesn't need too, he is getting easier looks largely thanks to Jokic.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

He isn't bad...you're just wrong. RIP

I think he played a lot of bad defense this year.
By design, as he's conservibg energy and avoiding fouls.
It's different when he goes for it.

Yet he’s the only one who gets to use those excuses. Anyone else who tries that kind of stuff is just called a traffic cone.

to use such excuse you need to
- have a great on court rating, to show this is a valuable trade off
- be able to turn it on when needed

[7seventynine9]

I mean...it's a stat like points per game. It just is what it is. We all know there's more context to points per game, such as TS%, turnovers, teams, offensive system, pace. But points per game is what it is. It's a fact. Just like these are...with some minor issues, just what they are.

No. It’s not. Ppg is a stat reflecting how many points that player scored. He’s FG reflects how many shots he made versus took. You combine this with the context with how good or bad his team is to measure how good of an offensive player he actually is. With a defensive stat like this, the context is soo much more important. A pick and roll is a play defensively where the entire defense has to be on a string. So that metric could reflect how good a PNT defender he is, or it can reflect how good his team is at defending the pick and roll.

If his team is good at defending the pick and roll then it doesn't matter as much if he isn't.

I am actually on the fence about his defensive play, it looked like him being targeted defensively as GSW did in the 2022 play-offs was an insuperable obstacle for his team, didn't so much in 2023 when I had thought it might bring Denver undone again based on 2022. Everything else he does including defensive stuff other than rim protection and defending the pick and roll as has been said, and at least putting in effort on defense as not all offensive superstars do, may still allow his team to be a winning team. As others have also said Denver seemed to come up with a team which could win in 2023, then inexplicably didn't keep the team together and particularly didn't keep the defensive players he needs around him.

Murray playing at such an elite level was obviously a very important ingredient in the winning of the 2023 title, Jokic like everyone else but perhaps even more so than some can't do it all on his own, and someone, probably Murray, will need to do something similar again if they are to contend this season. If Murray can deliver like that again it will confirm him to be someone who can be a highly elite player in the play-offs, not a bad thing to be imo, with health as with many other players appearing to be a major issue. But to the OP's question a healthy Murray playing as he did in the 2023 play-offs is definitely help of high quality. If Jokic needs defensive help I don't see why it can't be given to him however.

The main issue is there are only so many rim protectors who could play alongside Jokic and none of them are available. Obviously playing with guys like Murray and MPJ doesn't help, but even if they were good defenders, rim protection is still going to be an issue.

edit: On a side note, the only player I can think of off the top of my head who didn't get worse offensively post Jokic is Beasley.

[tsherkin]

The main issue is there are only so many rim protectors who could play alongside Jokic and none of them are available. Obviously playing with guys like Murray and MPJ doesn't help, but even if they were good defenders, rim protection is still going to be an issue.

It's not that bad. You can get forwards who can help contest at the rim. All those 6'9 types which Masai seems to love, for example. Or a Kirilenko type.

Honestly, they lost in G7 to the Wolves 98-90. Defense wasn't their issue. They kept the Wolves almost 8 points below league average. Ant was awful. Conley was terrible. NAW was dreadful. The problem was that they only scored 90 points, and crapped themselves in the third. Braun, KCP and MPJ combined to shoot 2/11 from 3. Murray was 4/12, despite scoring well otherwise. They got 5 points from the bench. Not-Jokic was w/13 in the 3rd.

What they needed was more scoring help around Joker. Their D wasn't the largest problem, and wouldn't have been had they faced the Celtics, either. There are different profiles to a title contender/NBA Finalist, after all.

[7seventynine9]

The main issue is there are only so many rim protectors who could play alongside Jokic and none of them are available. Obviously playing with guys like Murray and MPJ doesn't help, but even if they were good defenders, rim protection is still going to be an issue.

It's not that bad. You can get forwards who can help contest at the rim. All those 6'9 types which Masai seems to love, for example. Or a Kirilenko type.

Honestly, they lost in G7 to the Wolves 98-90. Defense wasn't their issue. They kept the Wolves almost 8 points below league average. Ant was awful. Conley was terrible. NAW was dreadful. The problem was that they only scored 90 points, and crapped themselves in the third. Braun, KCP and MPJ combined to shoot 2/11 from 3. Murray was 4/12, despite scoring well otherwise. They got 5 points from the bench. Not-Jokic was w/13 in the 3rd.

What they needed was more scoring help around Joker. Their D wasn't the largest problem, and wouldn't have been had they faced the Celtics, either. There are different profiles to a title contender/NBA Finalist, after all.

Who do you think are the AK47 types in today's NBA? Maybe Amen Thompson, but even that's a bit of a stretch.

Do you have any actual names of current players you think would pair up well next to Jokic that offer rim protetion and would be available? I guess they already have Peyton Watson who may develop into that guy.