Mephariel wrote:threethehardway wrote:Mephariel wrote:
Most All-star GOAT perimeter player are lazy on defense is not a serious argument. Jordan was a 9 time all-defense. So he only tried for 9 years? Is that really your argument? Anybody can make up stuff using unprovable words like "lazy." I can make up stuff too. Kobe was crazy, and he was imaging an alien invasion while playing ball. Besides, why are you limiting this argument to GOATs? By your logic, anyone who averaged 25+ points must be lazy on defense right? Since they need to reserve energy for scoring.
Also, if Jordan was lazy on defense, what does that make Jokic? A corpse? Does that really help your argument? So Giannis is lazy on defense? What does that make Jokic? A lamppost?
Jordan was all defensive team off of reputation and his splash plays
Kobe Bryant was on all defensive teams well into his 30s and he didn't play solid defense since 2003.
Fans don't like to account for the marketing aspect of the NBA.
Jordan was anointed as a GOAT before he even won a championship, you really think they weren't gonna give him All Def-Teams while on the best team that he was the face of?
Plus the competition at SG wasn't that deep. They gonna give 1st Team All Defense to Alvin Robertson over MJ?
LeBron almost got DPOY with his final years with the Cavs simply because his chase down blocks was making Sportscenter Top 10.
And Jokic is lazy on defense and he isn't vertically athletic.
I never said Jokic was good on defense. He's bad. I just don't care that he is that good on offense. He isn't a Tim Duncan level of offensive player. He's LeBron/Shaq/Magic/MJ level.
Only GOAT offensive juggernaut that was legitimately a defensive anchor for a championship team was LeBron with the Heat.
The rest had help and was hidden.
LeBron was the best rim protector and perimeter defender and he stepped up and carried those teams both ways at an ATG level that we will never see again. It won't be appreciated until he retires and weirdos get over the fact he's probably the best player ever.
When he had to, he stepped up.
But yeah, GOAT offensive players aren't great defenders for their entire career, it doesn't happen. The offensive load is too much and on championship squads they get help.
Holding Jokic to the standard of being a great defensive player when Magic wasn't is silly. They are basically the same type of player.
Everything you said about MJ or Lebron is conjecture. You are just making up stuff at this point.
And Magic is held to that standard as well. You don't think if Magic averaged 4 blocks a game like Mutombo and anchored a defense, he wouldn't be ranked higher? Magic is an all-around talent boosted by winning 5 rings. If he was better on offensive or defense, he would be ranked 2nd or challenging MJ. But defense absolutely matters. There is no way around it.
Nothing I say is conjecture, it's reality.
And Eddie Jones was a better defensive player at SG than MJ during the MJs 3 peat and they never gave Eddie Jones a chance at all to make an All-Defensive Team until MJ's last year.
Just like they didn't give Miami LeBron DPOY despite carrying them on defense his entire time there.
Just like they gave Kobe 1st team all defense over Dwade despite Kobe not being a good defender.
Coaches and media like who they they like.
Magic was considered by many, the best player ever during his time and nobody cared Michael Cooper did all defensive heavy lifting on the perimeter.
Nobody watched Magic Johnson be a 6'8 offensive dynamo, making plays nobody has ever seen before and think, "If he only blocked shots like Wilt."
And we still don't.
The idea defense matters when it comes to GOAT offensive dominance is some basketball internet forum nerd stuff that nobody adheres to in real life. In real life, you pay the guy that can run your offense like a well oiled machine or score at will and figure out defense later.
Everyone knows in real life, offensive dominance trumps defense, because nobody says Ben Wallace is a top 10 player ever. Ben Wallace doesn't even rank most people's top 50 players ever. Ben Wallace is probably the best defensive player to ever play and nobody cares. Ben Wallace doesn't even rank amongst GOAT centers.
Nobody cares about Michael Jordan's defense, what put him on is offensive dominance and aesthetics.
Same with Curry.
And it's going to be the same with Jokic, people are gonna look back at the crazy passes, shots and stats and not think about the fact he doesn't jump and block shots.
You rank players according to dominance and how they improve your chances to winning championships. You don't treat them like a basket of skill-sets and attributes and rank them against each other and think like "This one plays defense and this one don't."
