MVP Rankings 1.0

[LebronsCavs]

You know, I don't agree with the 2004 team being more talented than this current Laker team but I do agree with the whole "Kobe is doing more now" argument as far as leadership is concerned. The guy is CONSTANTLY talking any communicating with his team on the court directing them into their spots on defense AND offense. Even on the sidelines he's still talking and trying to devise plays for his teammates and trying to keep them aggressive. At the end of the day Kobe may not have to do as much physically as he had to do before but mentally as far as educating, motivating, and leading these guys he's had to do a hell of a lot more.

Gotcha, good post.

[JimMurray]

Kobe does more for the Lakers now than he's ever done before.

WTF?!? This is arguably the most talented LAKER team he's been on since '99, and you're trying to sell ^that comment? Please.

Uh are you serious?

2004 lakers had Shaq, Kobe, Malone, Payton, Grant, and even Luke Walton. Clearly more talented than this year's team.

That's three hall -of-famers in one team right there.

No effing way. A broke down Karl Malone who missed half the season, and broke down Gary Payton does not qualify as more talented than Prime Pau, Ron Artest, and Bynum in a breakout year. That 03-04 squad was ridiculously overrated, and it was a miracle they even got to the finals.

[LebronsCavs]

No effing way. A broke down Karl Malone who missed half the season, and broke down Gary Payton does not qualify as more talented than Prime Pau, Ron Artest, and Bynum in a breakout year. That 03-04 squad was ridiculously overrated, and it was a miracle they even got to the finals.

Sig worthy.

[YLSKillaCam]

You know, I don't agree with the 2004 team being more talented than this current Laker team but I do agree with the whole "Kobe is doing more now" argument as far as leadership is concerned. The guy is CONSTANTLY talking any communicating with his team on the court directing them into their spots on defense AND offense. Even on the sidelines he's still talking and trying to devise plays for his teammates and trying to keep them aggressive. At the end of the day Kobe may not have to do as much physically as he had to do before but mentally as far as educating, motivating, and leading these guys he's had to do a hell of a lot more.

Gotcha, good post.

Yeah, it was pretty much what I said in the first place and you would've known that if you would've read my post.

Calling my comment sig worthy shows that you have a poor understanding of the game. Of course, I would expect you to focus only on statistical production given your screenname.

Consider last night. Four times Kobe gave one of his bigs a beautiful entry pass that got their defenders out of place. Each time the defender had to foul the big in order to stop from there being easy points. I think each time the big made the two free throws.

Kobe didn't get an assist for his passing...but the play is more valuable than someone giving it to a spot up shooter for two because not only did the Lakers get the same number of points, but a member of the other team is assessed with a foul. Those are what I call "assists plus." Still, it doesn't show up on a stat sheet. It doesn't give Kobe an assist. It doesn't raise Kobe's PER. But it helps win the game.

And Kobe's leadership has been phenomenal. From integrating Artest, to making sure Bynum has enough touches, to being clutch when needed, to facilitating down the stretch, to defense...I mean they guy is pretty much the reason why they are the best team in basketball.

[G35]

No effing way. A broke down Karl Malone who missed half the season, and broke down Gary Payton does not qualify as more talented than Prime Pau, Ron Artest, and Bynum in a breakout year. That 03-04 squad was ridiculously overrated, and it was a miracle they even got to the finals.

Sig worthy.

Derek Fisher

.4 seconds to beat the Spurs

Miracle

[Dat Pass]

Right now its definitly Kobe.

9 game winning streak and an average win margin of 15.3 over that span.

Plus they were 8-3 without Gasol, which at the time was still one of the best records.

29-5-4 on 49% shooting isnt bad either, and 3rd in steals..

[HouMac]

Here we go again. Why do Kobe fans like to pretend that he's the only one providing leadership and hockey assists out there? Every stinking great player in the league does that for his team. And again, @ Kobe now doing more than ever when this is the most talented team he's been on since '99. LA pretty much wins every game in a blowout, yet somehow Kobe's more valuable now than ever . I guess the current LAKER squad would see a bigger drop-off in their win % w/o Kobe than the 05-07 LAKER teams would, eh? After all, what would Bynum, Gasol, Artest, Odom do w/o Kobe's leadership? How will Phil coach?

Why do Kobe fanboys do this? All they need to say is Kobe's putting up excellent numbers on the league's best team, and that is why he's MVP. Nobody would argue against that. But no, they'll try to sell crap like his non-boxscore contributions. As if he's the only one who's doing that in the league. Or somehow he's become this uber terrific leader as soon as his team became one of the most talented in the league again.

[Bgil]

No effing way. A broke down Karl Malone who missed half the season, and broke down Gary Payton does not qualify as more talented than Prime Pau, Ron Artest, and Bynum in a breakout year. That 03-04 squad was ridiculously overrated, and it was a miracle they even got to the finals.

Sig worthy.

Derek Fisher

.4 seconds to beat the Spurs

Miracle

The Tim Duncan shot was even more amazing to me.

[Benedict_Boozer]

Here we go again. Why do Kobe fans like to pretend that he's the only one providing leadership and hockey assists out there? Every stinking great player in the league does that for his team. And again, @ Kobe now doing more than ever when this is the most talented team he's been on since '99. LA pretty much wins every game in a blowout, yet somehow Kobe's more valuable now than ever . I guess the current LAKER squad would see a bigger drop-off in their win % w/o Kobe than the 05-07 LAKER teams would, eh? After all, what would Bynum, Gasol, Artest, Odom do w/o Kobe's leadership? How will Phil coach?

Why do Kobe fanboys do this? All they need to say is Kobe's putting up excellent numbers on the league's best team, and that is why he's MVP. Nobody would argue against that. But no, they'll try to sell crap like his non-boxscore contributions. As if he's the only one who's doing that in the league. Or somehow he's become this uber terrific leader as soon as his team became one of the most talented in the league again.

The reason is because at the end of the year Lebron will have better #'s. If the team records are comparable, Kobe fans know they will need to use an intangible's argument to prop Kobe over Lebron because odds are you can't do it by the numbers/efficiency.

That said I think Kobe is playing very well and definitely deserving at this point.

[InBoobieWeTrust]

You know, I don't agree with the 2004 team being more talented than this current Laker team but I do agree with the whole "Kobe is doing more now" argument as far as leadership is concerned. The guy is CONSTANTLY talking any communicating with his team on the court directing them into their spots on defense AND offense. Even on the sidelines he's still talking and trying to devise plays for his teammates and trying to keep them aggressive. At the end of the day Kobe may not have to do as much physically as he had to do before but mentally as far as educating, motivating, and leading these guys he's had to do a hell of a lot more.

I agree with this post, but if we're going to give points to Kobe for this, we need to give them to LeBron as well.

Just an example...up by one against the Bulls, sloppy play on both ends....LeBron leads the huddle during a timeout and we come out with a huge run that turns the game into a blow-out.

[HouMac]

The reason is because at the end of the year Lebron will have better #'s. If the team records are comparable, Kobe fans know they will need to use an intangible's argument to prop Kobe over Lebron because odds are you can't do it by the numbers/efficiency.

That said I think Kobe is playing very well and definitely deserving at this point.

Pretty much what it boils down to. LA fanboys are well aware of the fact that 1) LeBron's putting up better numbers than Kobe 2) only 1.5 games seperate LA & Cleveland 3) LA has played a ridiculously soft schedule thus far 4) the difference in team records likely won't continue as LA hits the road 5) Kobe has never shown any ability to outproduce LeBron statistically, so 6) how the **** will he be MVP when LeBron's putting up better numbers on a team with a similar record? So they have to resort to gimmicks like "leadership" and "hockey assists" since we all know Kobe's the only who possesses the god-given skills to provide that to his uber talented team

The Kobe fanboys need to understand that LeBron fans can just as easily write a 20 page article on what LeBron's presence on the floor does to their anemic offense, how his leadership keeps the team lose and has 'em overachieving every season, and how Cleveland wouldn't win 35 games in a season w/o him. They can just as easily play the non-boxscore contributions card, and it would be a heck of a lot more believable too...considering Cleveland's significantly inferior to LA in terms of talent and coaching.

[Dat Pass]

The reason is because at the end of the year Lebron will have better #'s. If the team records are comparable, Kobe fans know they will need to use an intangible's argument to prop Kobe over Lebron because odds are you can't do it by the numbers/efficiency.

That said I think Kobe is playing very well and definitely deserving at this point.

Pretty much what it boils down to. LA fanboys are well aware of the fact that 1) only 1.5 games seperate them from Cleveland 2) their team has played a ridiculously soft schedule thus far 3) the difference in team records likely won't continue as their team hits the road 4) Kobe has never shown any ability to outproduce LeBron statistically, so 5) how the **** will he be MVP when LeBron's putting up better numbers on a team with a similar record? So they have to resort to gimmicks like "leadership" and "hockey assists" since we all know Kobe's the only who possesses the god-given skills to provide that to his team

Here are my reasons for Kobe over LeBron in the MVP voting..

1. Right now, the Cavs are projected to win about 61-62 games. Around 5 less than last year despite adding quite a bit more talent. That has to hurt his MVP chances a bit, wouldnt you agree?

2. And sure, you can argue the Lakers home-heavy schedule, but its not like the Cavs have had that many tough games. Out of their 9 road games, only 2 were agaisnt winning teams.

3. Cavs schedule will get harder too. And the Lakers are 7-0 with Gasol and an average win margin of over 15 (22.8 if you take out that Heat game). So its not like they've just barely been winning. Every game with Gasol this season has been a win of at least 10, with the exception of the Heat game.

4. I agree with that, but its not like hes that far behind.
Kobe - 28.9ppg, 5.5rpg, 3.9apg, 2.3spg (.492fg%)
LeBron - 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 8.4apg, 1.2spg (.512fg%)

5. If LeBron can keep the Cavs within 3 games of the Lakers, then you got yourself an argument. But I dont think he can. We'll see though.

6. And Kobe's 8-3 start without Gasol helps him alot.

[Bgil]

The reason is because at the end of the year Lebron will have better #'s. If the team records are comparable, Kobe fans know they will need to use an intangible's argument to prop Kobe over Lebron because odds are you can't do it by the numbers/efficiency.

That said I think Kobe is playing very well and definitely deserving at this point.

Pretty much what it boils down to. LA fanboys are well aware of the fact that 1) LeBron's putting up better numbers than Kobe 2) only 1.5 games seperate LA & Cleveland 3) LA has played a ridiculously soft schedule thus far 4) the difference in team records likely won't continue as LA hits the road 5) Kobe has never shown any ability to outproduce LeBron statistically, so 6) how the **** will he be MVP when LeBron's putting up better numbers on a team with a similar record? So they have to resort to gimmicks like "leadership" and "hockey assists" since we all know Kobe's the only who possesses the god-given skills to provide that to his uber talented team

The Kobe fanboys need to understand that LeBron fans can just as easily write a 20 page article on what LeBron's presence on the floor does to their anemic offense, how his leadership keeps the team lose and has 'em overachieving every season, and how Cleveland wouldn't win 35 games in a season w/o him. They can just as easily play the non-boxscore contributions card, and it would be a heck of a lot more believable too...considering Cleveland's significantly inferior to LA in terms of talent and coaching.

You could try to play that card but we all know it's bull. Everyone knows the biggest non-box score element to the Cavs success is great defensive coaching. Great defensive coaching is the same thing that allows Houston to be as successful as they are despite routinely missing their stars. Of course, Cavs fans would counter with more bull like saying Lebron is the team's best defender (he's not) and the main catalyst in the defense. Then we'd counter with more facts like that the Cavs have been a great defensive team since Mike Brown took over and even back when Lebron was regarded as a defensive liability and they had to hide him defensively nearly every game.

We've played this game before and you guys always lose.

[HouMac]

Here are my reasons for Kobe over LeBron in the MVP voting..

I have no issues with Kobe being ranked ahead of LeBron as of right now. His team has the league's best record and he's putting up great numbers. He's got a terrific case. My issue is with gimmicky arguments like "leadership" and "hockey assists" and the stupidity/insecurity of those who think other great players in the league don't provide that to their significantly less-talented teams.

1. Right now, the Cavs are projected to win about 61-62 games. Around 5 less than last year despite adding quite a bit more talent. That has to hurt his MVP chances a bit, wouldnt you agree?

If LeBron's play had anything to do with the decrease in projected wins, then you'd have a case. But Cleveland's slow start clearly had to do with all the new faces. They have 3 new players in their starting lineup this season in Shaq, Hickson and Parker.

2. And sure, you can argue the Lakers home-heavy schedule, but its not like the Cavs have had that many tough games. Out of their 9 road games, only 2 were agaisnt winning teams.

Are you honestly trying to downplay the utter cupcake-ness of LA's 15 home games and 4 road games thus far? And only 3 back-to-backs! Cleveland's played 6 more road games and a ridiculous 7 back-to-backs thus far. And LA's only played 2 more games against .500+ teams. There's no comparison here. LA's played a significantly easier schedule than Cleveland so far.

4. I agree with that, but its not like hes that far behind.
Kobe - 28.9ppg, 5.5rpg, 3.9apg, 2.3spg (.492fg%)
LeBron - 27.3ppg, 6.7rpg, 8.4apg, 1.2spg (.512fg%)

His only edges are PPG(thanks to 3.5 more FGA) and spg. LeBron's got everything else. The massive edge in APG is hard to overlook.

5. If LeBron can keep the Cavs within 3 games of the Lakers

I'll change that to 5 games if LeBron maintains his current statistical edge.

6. And Kobe's 8-3 start without Gasol helps him alot.

Cleveland's 2 starters(Shaq and West) have missed a combined 14 games themselves this season.

[Dat Pass]

I'll change that to 5 games if LeBron maintains his current statistical edge.

Eh, I might be able to agree with that. However, I dont think its gonna happen. The Lakers are 7-0 since Gasol returned, and other than a close game agaisnt the Heat, their average margin of victory is over 20. So even when their schedule gets tougher, its hard to see them losing very many games this year.

I think the Lakers will win 67-68 games and the Cavs will win around 60. Like I said, the Cavs havent exactly had the hardest schedule either, and they've had some pretty uninspiring losses. And I have a feeling Shaq and Big Z will miss some time this season, which could hurt their record as well. But who knows, this is all speculation on my part.

And all in all, their stats arent TOO far off. 29-5-4 49% v. 27-6-8 51%...

Dont get me wrong, LeBrons stats are better, but I dont think they are good enough to get him the MVP unless the Cavs win the East, or stay within 3 games of LA. (Just my opinion)

[Bgil]

I have no issues with Kobe being ranked ahead of LeBron as of right now. His team has the league's best record and he's putting up great numbers. He's got a terrific case. My issue is with gimmicky arguments like "leadership" and "hockey assists" and the stupidity/insecurity of those who think other great players in the league don't provide that to their significantly less-talented teams.

Sorry, but with few exceptions: THEY DON'T. The entire reason for having a triangle shaped structure is so there's always another angle available to make a better pass. SO if you can't make the pass from A to B (the post player), you swing it to C in the corner and then to B. That's just how the offense works. That's also why the Lakers have 4 players averaging about 4 assists per game and not a single one of them is a PG.

That's why Derek Fisher was more valuable to the offense than Gary Payton. And why Luke Walton started over two vastly superior players (Vlad and Ariza) until he literally benched himself.

Edit: Just to let you know, the exceptions don't include Lebron.

Edit: an easier way to explain wolbe be by point out that the Lakers counter and response to most types of overplays and forms of defensive pressure is a hockey assist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKoonPBHhGs
40 seconds in.

[YLSKillaCam]

Hard to take HouMac seriously when his arguments are pretty weak:

1) HouMac says LA has played a ridiciously soft schedule. That would be wrong. LA's schedule has been significantly more difficult than the Cavs at the time of this post. http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/powerrankings

2) HouMac says that Cavs are only 1.5 games behind. He clearly has no experience in statistical modeling. 1.5 games back today is equivalent to about an 8 game spread at the end of the season. Pretty damn significant.

3) HouMac says that Kobe's numbers are inferior to Lebron's. The fact is there's not one area except assists where Lebron is at least one standard deviation away from Kobe. Essentially, taking every statstical category by iteself except for assists and you can say that the difference isn't statistically significant. If you believe in PER, then the difference is significant and that's fine...but then you'd also have to admit that Kobe's been, objectively, better than Lebron on the defensive end this season. That's just true whether the stats confirm it or not.

4) HouMac can't read very well. I never said Kobe's the only one who provides Hockey assists or provides leadership, but two things: 1) a hockey assist is a pass to the player who passes to the man who scores; I'm talking about an assist where a player feeds their big, gets them in position to get to the line and they make the free throw. I also showed how PER doesn't count this and how it is more valuable than a regular assist. It was an example of how PER doesn't really give the full picture of what Kobe does...and before you say this isn't limited to Kobe...name another wing player with entry pass skills like Bryant who sets up bigs the way he does. Consider this, if Dwight had Kobe, we'd be calling him Shaq. 2) Kobe led his team to a championship, so by default his leadership ability is more valuable because we know it can produce rings.

5) HouMac and other Lebron fans make ridiculous arguments speculating how many games the Cavs would win without James or why James has to do what he does. They should stick to the strongest arguments: Lebron is playing insanely good basketball, winning at a high clip and has his team near the top of his conference. It makes him a MVP candidate. Compared to what Kobe's done this season, it puts him in second place. How is that bad?

[mysticbb]

Consider this, if Dwight had Kobe, we'd be calling him Shaq.

Well, that explains why Shaquille O'Neal scored 29.6 ppg while having a 0.593 ts% without Bryant between 1999 and 2004. The Lakers won 75% of their games without Bryant in the same timespan, that is even a higher win% than they had with Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal. O'Neal scored 26.7 ppg with a 0.583 ts% with Bryant. I guess that pretty much confirms that Bryant made Shaquille O'Neal. Just believe it. :D

Kobe led his team to a championship, so by default his leadership ability is more valuable because we know it can produce rings.

No, Bryant is by default better, just the best of All-Time, he MADE SHAQ, that should be enough!

[YLSKillaCam]

Consider this, if Dwight had Kobe, we'd be calling him Shaq.

Well, that explains why Shaquille O'Neal scored 29.6 ppg while having a 0.593 ts% without Bryant between 1999 and 2004. The Lakers won 75% of their games without Bryant in the same timespan, that is even a higher win% than they had with Bryant and Shaquille O'Neal. O'Neal scored 26.7 ppg with a 0.583 ts% with Bryant. I guess that pretty much confirms that Bryant made Shaquille O'Neal. Just believe it.

Kobe led his team to a championship, so by default his leadership ability is more valuable because we know it can produce rings.

No, Bryant is by default better, just the best of All-Time, he MADE SHAQ, that should be enough!

WTF?

I didn't say Kobe made Shaquille. I said if Dwight had Kobe, we'd be calling Dwight...Shaq. Obviously I'm saying that Kobe can make Dwight look like Shaquille. Remember Dwight's teammates inability to get him the ball in the finals?

Seriously, if you're going to respond and make fun of me at least get it right.

[mysticbb]

WTF?

I didn't say Kobe made Shaquille. I said if Dwight had Kobe, we'd be calling Dwight...Shaq. Obviously I'm saying that Kobe can make Dwight look like Shaquille.

Seriously, if you're going to respond and make fun of me at least get it right.

LOL, sorry, but you didn't even got the response. Shaquille O'Neal played even better without Kobe Bryant, Shaquille O'Neal led his team to the finals in his 3rd season while having 29/11/3 in the regular season. What do you think? I guess that was Kobe's magic in some way. :D