The Official James Harden Thread

[NeZoRiL]

With all due respect, some players are made for the bench, in short bursts, like most sixth men in the NBA. Harden played with Durant and Westbrook, so his assist numbers would automatically go up, as he's an amazing facilitator, and I can't question that. Kevin Martin can't at all be as good as Harden in OKC, that much is true. I don't think they're darkhorses, I have a feeling Westbrook will improve as a passer, just as Harden is improving overall. Will you agree with me that giving a great bench player an 80 million dollar contract is a risk? I think so.

[Promezclan]

Harden appears to be annoyingly religious, so that should help his chemistry with Lin too.

[Dupp]

Durant, arguably the best player in the NBA is making 86 million over 5 years. Westbrook signed for 80 million, and I think he could get more then that in free agency. Harden looks great, but 80 million for a sixth man is a little steep.

But Harden was asking 60/4 which was a discount anyway if we go by what hed get on the open market.

[vincecarter4pres]

With all due respect, some players are made for the bench, in short bursts, like most sixth men in the NBA. Harden played with Durant and Westbrook, so his assist numbers would automatically go up, as he's an amazing facilitator, and I can't question that. Kevin Martin can't at all be as good as Harden in OKC, that much is true. I don't think they're darkhorses, I have a feeling Westbrook will improve as a passer, just as Harden is improving overall. Will you agree with me that giving a great bench player an 80 million dollar contract is a risk? I think so.

He was and is a great player. No need to keep throwing on the bench player label.

Same as doing it with Ginobili, at least in concept.

You don't take Ginobili off those Spurs teams and expect to win many if any of those chips without replacing him with an at the time superstar such as Vince Carter, A.I. or Tracy McGrady, he was that good, that important and that big an impact player.

You want to keep throwing that disclaimer around as a way to devalue him, but that won't work here in a simple forum for basketball discussion where we see it for the obvious it is.

Ginobili was certainly worth that type of coin after a few seasons when he hit his stride.

In all reality, Ginobili never put up the big raw numbers to go with his incredible advanced stats because he played too few minutes, which was a direct result of his durability issues specifically.

Harden has the body and bulk to take the grind of heavy minutes in all likelihood.

[Trader_Joe]

Durant, arguably the best player in the NBA is making 86 million over 5 years. Westbrook signed for 80 million, and I think he could get more then that in free agency. Harden looks great, but 80 million for a sixth man is a little steep.

No one could have offered RW that kind of money. They used their 5 year franchise contract on him. I dont know how much more Durant could have made, but between the two of them they probably make all but $3m of the combined $30m they make. They did not take significant pay cuts, particularly not RW. And not like LBJ, Bosh, Wade, TD and others have.

And Harden would have taken less too...with a trade kicker for security.

[TheGoodDoctor]

I never understood why they extended Ibaka first....

[samueldestroyer]

You're really gonna keep up with this spin lol?

You're really going to sit here and tell us they literally chose Perkins over Harden?

It's not even a given they keep Perk after the trade, they still might amnesty him.

No... I never said literally. They did it indirectly by keeping Perkins and trading Harden. There's no spin to it.

[NeZoRiL]

You act as if when I call him a bench player I'm bad-talking him, I'm not by any means.

What I meant by 'made for the bench', is that players ike Crawford, Terry, Manu, are players that are most effective with the second unit. To put him in the same breath with one of the best basketball players to ever play in Manu is a compliment for sure. I would debate on the Rockets he's more of a Carter, T-Mac type guy as opposed to a Manu type guy. Not many scorers on that Houston roster. Just wait a little bit and see how coaches draw up defensive sets to slightly neutralize Harden. His dominance is very fresh in the league.

[vincecarter4pres]

Durant, arguably the best player in the NBA is making 86 million over 5 years. Westbrook signed for 80 million, and I think he could get more then that in free agency. Harden looks great, but 80 million for a sixth man is a little steep.

No one could have offered RW that kind of money. They used their 5 year franchise contract on him. I dont know how much more Durant could have made, but between the two of them they probably make all but $3m of the combined $30m they make. They did not take significant pay cuts, particularly not RW. And not like LBJ, Bosh, Wade, TD and others have.

And Harden would have taken less too...with a trade kicker for security.

People make way too much out of Westbrook taking that extension as if he did them some giant favor that was pure and loyal in intentions through and through.

Reality was at the time he couldn't get the full Rose extension because he had yet to qualify for it.

He would have had to gamble banking on having another amazing season where he was an All Star or on an All NBA team or the most he could have gotten was the same amount he took. So at that point maybe they say, we told you it was now or never back then, go to RFA and we'll match a 4 year max with lesser raise percentages. Then top that with maybe he gets hurt or just had a terrible year? And a S&T couldn't even help him out per the CBA?

Yeah, he didn't really do OKC any favors, that's pretty much myth.

It was basically a meet in the middle to minimize risk while coming up with fair reward compromise.

[HornetJail]

I never understood why they extended Ibaka first....

Nick Collison, Kendrick Perkins, and PJ3 would be the only bigs on the roster. Also Ibaka gives the D few other players can give. Give me one other player that's come close to 4 blocks per game for a season in the last several years. He would be offered the max by somebody for sure and OKC was lucky to lock him up for less. Unfortunately they were less lucky for Harden.

[truth serum]

Can't believe some people are saying Harden is better than Westbrook. Please people, its only 2 games. If he goes like 30/5/5 the whole season then we can debate.

if he goes 30/5/5 for the whole season there's nothing to debate.

+1

For me personally... I don't need to see much more of James Harden to know I like his game more than I like Westbrook's. Regardless of who the "better player" is, I just love the way Harden plays and what he brings to a team over Westbrook. He plays his position quite perfectly. Westbrook, not so much.

[NeZoRiL]

Durant, arguably the best player in the NBA is making 86 million over 5 years. Westbrook signed for 80 million, and I think he could get more then that in free agency. Harden looks great, but 80 million for a sixth man is a little steep.

No one could have offered RW that kind of money. They used their 5 year franchise contract on him. I dont know how much more Durant could have made, but between the two of them they probably make all but $3m of the combined $30m they make. They did not take significant pay cuts, particularly not RW. And not like LBJ, Bosh, Wade, TD and others have.

And Harden would have taken less too...with a trade kicker for security.

I could see a team desperate for money like Houston, Charlotte...teams that need to put bottoms in seats signing Westbrook for more. He is by no means a saint, but a pay-cut is a pay-cut either way.

[vincecarter4pres]

You act as if when I call him a bench player I'm bad-talking him, I'm not by any means.

What I meant by 'made for the bench', is that players ike Crawford, Terry, Manu, are players that are most effective with the second unit. To put him in the same breath with one of the best basketball players to ever play in Manu is a compliment for sure. I would debate on the Rockets he's more of a Carter, T-Mac type guy as opposed to a Manu type guy. Not many scorers on that Houston roster. Just wait a little bit and see how coaches draw up defensive sets to slightly neutralize Harden. His dominance is very fresh in the league.

You're having a separation problem lol.

You can't group Manu or even Harden in with a scrub like Crawful or a very good but not great player like Terry and then call Manu one of the best basketball players.

You're also overcomplicated things and getting stuck on this bench concept.

Manu started a ton of games and basically had his best years the seasons he started the most games.

It's just another copout argument to keep pushing this label.

Manu is a great player. Flat out. HOF advanced numbers with sample size and immense success to correlate and legitimize them. Manu is most effective playing basketball. You make it like he doesn't spend the majority of his time on the court with at least one of Duncan or Parker basically his whole career with both of them at once during the playoffs, during crunch time and in big games.

Crawful seems more effective in a 6xth man role because he can inefficiently gun away while grinding the offense to a halt without as much repercussion or at least backlash.

Terry does better because he's a shooting guard in a point guard's body and it's easier to mask his size and defensive woes with 2 or 3 other bench players alongside him because those players of the second unit aside from himself are normally defensive, hustle and energy guys. You toss him out there with a good taller point guard like Kidd, 2 gritty defenders and fastbreak lunch pail guys and one of Dirk or another scorer and boom.

Different dynamic, different specific players. Not a great comparison just grouping them together with a label in my opinion.

Manu is legit 2 guard size. Can play any which way with the ball in his hands or off, can defend, was athletic as hell, smart. It's not the same and yet Manu is the guy Harden compares to stylistically, along with Paul Pierce a little something.

[vincecarter4pres]

Durant, arguably the best player in the NBA is making 86 million over 5 years. Westbrook signed for 80 million, and I think he could get more then that in free agency. Harden looks great, but 80 million for a sixth man is a little steep.

No one could have offered RW that kind of money. They used their 5 year franchise contract on him. I dont know how much more Durant could have made, but between the two of them they probably make all but $3m of the combined $30m they make. They did not take significant pay cuts, particularly not RW. And not like LBJ, Bosh, Wade, TD and others have.

And Harden would have taken less too...with a trade kicker for security.

I could see a team desperate for money like Houston, Charlotte...teams that need to put bottoms in seats signing Westbrook for more. He is by no means a saint, but a pay-cut is a pay-cut either way.

There is a CBA, this isn't baseball. There is strict limits to payscale.

Other teams literally could not have matched the money OKC gave him, let alone offered more.

He really didn't take a pay cut. He took a pay cut in theory because of what was possible if everything went right for him the last year of his rookie scale contract.

[NeZoRiL]

The thing is, Harden is one of the better sixth men we've seen recently, and the other players who've been awarded with the honor haven't been as effective. Crawford, or in Portland, 'Crawful', was good in Atlanta, his first stint anyways. It just irks me after two games we're talking about how he's worth 80 million dollars, putting him up with Manu and Pierce, feels a little soon to me. I think my bench idea is very simplistic, he'd shine off the bench, setting players up who can't create for themselves, spacing the floor, passing effectively, etc. He is the best player in Houston right now, and is becoming a different player, less passive more scoring, (exception: 37/12) which he will have to do from now on.

I see what you're getting at, but as a GM it is a huge risk to throw money at a guy who came off the bench. It isn't a bad thing by any means, it is paying off, but he gambled.

NOTE: Westbrook took a small pay-cut, fine. I'll compromise.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Over on the Rockets board my boy, Vator, pointed out something pretty cool:

Jeremy Lin is #7

James Harden is #13

The original - and most common - area code in Houston is "713"


Sometimes people try too hard to come up with nicknames or handles...times like this, the fates work in your favor!

713!!!

Both were dominating California HS basketball at the same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[17][18] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Harden#High_school

[Harden} improved his stats to 18.8 points, 7.7 boards and 3.5 assists in his junior season and led Artesia to the California state title and a 33–1 record. Artesia won the state title in Harden's final year too by going 33–2. Harden had similar stats as during the previous season: 18.8 points, 7.9 rebounds and 3.9 assists. He was named a Parade and McDonald's All-American.

98 wins, 4 losses among those three teams these two led.

Lin is 24 and was born 8/23/88 (Kobe was born 8/23/78)
Harden is 23 and was born 8/26/89

[StitchJones]

The thing is, Harden is one of the better sixth men we've seen recently, and the other players who've been awarded with the honor haven't been as effective. Crawford, or in Portland, 'Crawful', was good in Atlanta, his first stint anyways. It just irks me after two games we're talking about how he's worth 80 million dollars, putting him up with Manu and Pierce, feels a little soon to me. I think my bench idea is very simplistic, he'd shine off the bench, setting players up who can't create for themselves, spacing the floor, passing effectively, etc. He is the best player in Houston right now, and is becoming a different player, less passive more scoring, (exception: 37/12) which he will have to do from now on.

I see what you're getting at, but as a GM it is a huge risk to throw money at a guy who came off the bench. It isn't a bad thing by any means, it is paying off, but he gambled.

NOTE: Westbrook took a small pay-cut, fine. I'll compromise.

I will just say the difference between harden as a sixth man verses Crawford and others is just how damn efficient he has been. It doesn't take him 20 shots like Crawford to get 20+ points. Just look at today 45 ppins on 14-19. Efficiency has always been his game and he's just translated it over with more minutes and more opportunities. Also people are discounting how unique harden's game is. he has an excellent first step, superb handles, a good long range games and he can finish through contact. i don't care how much teams adjust, with this team he is going to get his. Atlanta trapped and double teamed him tonight and he still found ways to score.

[NeZoRiL]

The thing is, Harden is one of the better sixth men we've seen recently, and the other players who've been awarded with the honor haven't been as effective. Crawford, or in Portland, 'Crawful', was good in Atlanta, his first stint anyways. It just irks me after two games we're talking about how he's worth 80 million dollars, putting him up with Manu and Pierce, feels a little soon to me. I think my bench idea is very simplistic, he'd shine off the bench, setting players up who can't create for themselves, spacing the floor, passing effectively, etc. He is the best player in Houston right now, and is becoming a different player, less passive more scoring, (exception: 37/12) which he will have to do from now on.

I see what you're getting at, but as a GM it is a huge risk to throw money at a guy who came off the bench. It isn't a bad thing by any means, it is paying off, but he gambled.

NOTE: Westbrook took a small pay-cut, fine. I'll compromise.

I will just say the difference between harden as a sixth man verses Crawford and others is just how damn efficient he has been. It doesn't take him 20 shots like Crawford to get 20+ points. Just look at today 45 ppins on 14-19. Efficiency has always been his game and he's just translated it over with more minutes and more opportunities. Also people are discounting how unique harden's game is. he has an excellent first step, superb handles, a good long range games and he can finish through contact. i don't care how much teams adjust, with this team he is going to get his. Atlanta trapped and double teamed him tonight and he still found ways to score.

Harden is probably the most beloved players in the NBA to coaches. Doesn't chuck, passes the ball well, needs to defend better but he'll work on that. Still isn't as all-around as Manu was as a sixth man, I've always thought Manu was, or is, criminally underrated as a defender. On ball, steals...etc.

[revvolutions]

Morey uses harden.


It's super effective!

[Left Side Drive]

Over on the Rockets board my boy, Vator, pointed out something pretty cool:

Jeremy Lin is #7

James Harden is #13

The original - and most common - area code in Houston is "713"


Sometimes people try too hard to come up with nicknames or handles...times like this, the fates work in your favor!

713!!!

Both were dominating California HS basketball at the same time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeremy_Lin

In his senior year in 2005–2006, Lin captained Palo Alto High School to a 32–1 record and upset nationally ranked Mater Dei, 51–47, for the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) Division II state title.[17][18] He was named first-team All-State and Northern California Division II Player of the Year, ending his senior year averaging 15.1 points, 7.1 assists, 6.2 rebounds and 5.0 steals.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Harden#High_school

[Harden} improved his stats to 18.8 points, 7.7 boards and 3.5 assists in his junior season and led Artesia to the California state title and a 33–1 record. Artesia won the state title in Harden's final year too by going 33–2. Harden had similar stats as during the previous season: 18.8 points, 7.9 rebounds and 3.9 assists. He was named a Parade and McDonald's All-American.

98 wins, 4 losses among those three teams these two led.

Lin is 24 and was born 8/23/88 (Kobe was born 8/23/78)
Harden is 23 and was born 8/26/89

If Harden and Lin were both dominating HS basketball around the same time did they know each other before Houston?