2016-17 MVP Discussion Thread Pt 3 (season finale)

[Atmanne]

Lebron has lost some MVP's just because people got tired of voting for him or in 2011 specifically because of the fall-out over the decision.

I'm a bit tired of the Lebron deserved 8 MVPs argument. Which ones other than 2011? Durant was insane in 2014 (and OKC had a better record than Miami) and there was zero groundswell for Lebron the last two years.

[DarkAzcura]

Irony? I'm not really sure you know what that means..I asked when the last time it happened was..alluding that it was highly uncommon..and you just proved my point considering it has been 35 years.

You are complaining about a player on a ~46 win team about the win the MVP but the last time a player on a 46 win team won the MVP it was on your team - the Houston Rockets. There is irony in that.

The problem for James Harden is he's the Hillary Clinton of the MVP race. On paper he should win but not enough people actually like the guy.

This will definitely influence at least some votes. The constant ref baiting and making a move to get a foul instead of score is just basketball at its worst and the King of that garbage being the MVP isn't good for the sport.

Also, one thing I noticed is remember in February there was a thread called "Harden takes flopping to a new level while mating with MCW" because Harden flopped and started riding piggy back on MCW and then people started posting other times he did the same like with JRue. EVERY ONE of those YouTube videos has been DELETED. I really think Morey is savvy enough to try to smear Westbrook and clean up Harden's image

http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1520782#start_here
http://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1520782&start=40#start_here

Wait, you are assuming that because I am supporting Harden, I am a Rockets fan? Is it not possible for fans of other teams to support him as MVP or something?

Kind of jumped to conclusions there.

Spoiler:

I am a Celtic fan. Like that matters anyway.

[Texas Chuck]

He lost votes because his team was perceived as an underachiever. He didn't deserve MVP that year and wouldn't have won even if the decision hadn't been a pr disaster. "The best player" is not how MVPs are awarded.

Agree with the highlighted--which is why I mentioned Howard and Dirk being worthy candidates as well. I disagree that the Heat underachieved. They were really shallow behind the big 3 and the slow start should not have been unexpected. But once they got past that first 1/4 of the season they played at well over a 60 win pace. And despite that start still won 58. I don't see any real team edge for Howard's Magic or Dirk's Mavs and certainly not Rose's Bulls.

Now you are correct that he might not have won the MVP in 2011 even without the decision--I was perhaps too hasty to assume he would. But it definitely had an impact on the voting. Just like Rose won the MVP for silly narrative reasons rather than for being the most valuable player. Both Howard and Dirk were clearly more valuable to their teams as Rose was and their teams were very good as well.

[Basileus777]

Lebron has lost some MVP's just because people got tired of voting for him or in 2011 specifically because of the fall-out over the decision.

I'm a bit tired of the Lebron deserved 8 MVPs argument. Which ones other than 2011? Durant was insane in 2014 (and OKC had a better record than Miami) and there was zero groundswell for Lebron the last two years.

There are probably better arguments for pre-2009 years as he has won every MVP that he has deserved since that year.

He lost votes because his team was perceived as an underachiever. He didn't deserve MVP that year and wouldn't have won even if the decision hadn't been a pr disaster. "The best player" is not how MVPs are awarded.

Agree with the highlighted--which is why I mentioned Howard and Dirk being worthy candidates as well. I disagree that the Heat underachieved. They were really shallow behind the big 3 and the slow start should not have been unexpected. But once they got past that first 1/4 of the season they played at well over a 60 win pace. And despite that start still won 58. I don't see any real team edge for Howard's Magic or Dirk's Mavs and certainly not Rose's Bulls.

Now you are correct that he might not have won the MVP in 2011 even without the decision--I was perhaps too hasty to assume he would. But it definitely had an impact on the voting. Just like Rose won the MVP for silly narrative reasons rather than for being the most valuable player. Both Howard and Dirk were clearly more valuable to their teams as Rose was and their teams were very good as well.

I'm not articulating my opinion with the Heat, but the general feeling at the time that a team with those three players was supposed to be historic, and in 2011 they were not and those early season woes colored the perception. The decision cost him votes, but I don't see how LeBron forms that team and avoids that narrative. He would have needed to have eye popping numbers, but instead his were actually down due to the new role he was taking.

[Basileus777]

Edit: double post.

[gmoney411]

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.



Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

[Hello Brooklyn]

At least we get to see Harden go head to head v Westbrook in the First Round.

That's definitely going to be my favorite matchup to watch.

[Scizzup]

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.



Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

Harden carried that 14/15 team just as much as Russ. Howard missed 42 games and Beverly missed 30games. Harden posted a 8.6rpm/led the league in win shares and was was more impactful than this year Russ in RPM/RAPM. Also OKC this year is top 8 defense but the difference is offense where Harden superior efficiency leads to a better team performance offensively. Russ is having a great season and has broken bpm partly because of the way it's calculated but lets not pretend he is all alone. 37 year old Jason Terry was a top 5 player on that Rockets team. Both those teams were great defensively and needed their star to carry the offense. I have Andre Roberson as first team defense this year and won't be surprised if he got love for DPOY

[Doctor MJ]

The problem for James Harden is he's the Hillary Clinton of the MVP race. On paper he should win but not enough people actually like the guy.

What's funny about that is there's truth in it but he WON the player's MVP award over Curry in 14-15.

On Lowes podcast they were talking about there possibly being a split between current players and the retired players in the media. The latter think that Westbrook is by far the most impressive, while many current players favor Harden.

I would submit that one perspective comes from watching and evaluating with an eye toward advocating for basketball's classic virtues while the other comes from actually trying to stop what each player is doing.

JJ Redick said a couple years ago that he had Westbrook #1 on his MVP list until he played against OKC with Westbrook in this mode, at which point he just felt like Westbrook was doing too much. I don't remember his specific words but my impression was that he felt like it made OKC predictable and not too hard to stop.

And while some may see that as laughable it has to be noted that the sophisticated take on Westbrook's candidacy stems primarily on how bad they look without him, not how dangerous they are with him.

Now let me note: Despite me being something of a Westbrook skeptic, I'm starting to come around. He might get my vote here. I know that what I wrote there is effectively anti-Westbrook but that's because I needed to elaborate on something counter to the understandable assumption that stuff like this only worked for Westbrook.


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[Doctor MJ]

Btw, my dilemma now is between Westbrook, Harden, and Curry.


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[E-Balla]

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

[K_chile22]

Rockets play at a faster pace with like 10 points more per game. Harden is coached by an offensive genius and is surrounded by shooters. Westbrook has clunkers all around him. Switch teams and Westbrook's stats would probably be even more inflated on that team and that team record might be better. Hell, with Westbrook running end to end, D'Antoni might implement a 5-seconds or less, make sure the defensive rebound ends up with Westbrook, defense on their heels, 3-pointer or layup. I am not sure Harden would do as well as Westbrook without all those snipers.



Moses Malone, Houston Rockets 1982 with 46 wins. Oh the irony.

I am not downplaying Harden's achievement, they are 1A and 1B for MVP. What is ridiculous is all these sniping comments about Westbrook and his empty stats and stat padding. I think all players do it to some extent and the historic season I am sure has made Westbrook more aware in the tail end of the season but he's still 1A MVP choice putting up those numbers to take that team to the playoffs this season.

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

Huh!? The Thunder are 9th in defensive rating right now.

[E-Balla]

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

Harden carried that 14/15 team just as much as Russ. Howard missed 42 games and Beverly missed 30games. Harden posted a 8.6rpm/led the league in win shares and was was more impactful than this year Russ in RPM/RAPM. Also OKC this year is top 8 defense but the difference is offense where Harden superior efficiency leads to a better team performance offensively. Russ is having a great season and has broken bpm partly because of the way it's calculated but lets not pretend he is all alone. 37 year old Jason Terry was a top 5 player on that Rockets team. Both those teams were great defensively and needed their star to carry the offense. I have Andre Roberson has first team defense this year and won't be surprised if he got love for DPOY

1. There's no RAPM numbers this year.

2. Harden still had a good supporting cast in 2015. His season was impressive but no one acted like he didn't have help. Motie was thought to be the next breakout guy.

3. That Rockets team played at a -0.4 level when Harden was off the court. You're badly overestimating his impact.

4. Either way 2015 Harden was on another level than Harden is currently at.

[K_chile22]

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

So all these players are playing worse than they ever had while they were on losing teams, Harden isn't that impactful, and they're probably going to hit 55 wins. Wild.
Guess Beverley and Clint are the ones carrying that team huh

I also enjoy the gymnastics of using 'before he came to' then 'with __ off the floor' with ppg, then pp36, and including TS% only when it benefits your argument

[E-Balla]

Harden won 56 games and got the 2 seed with a roster that had almost no shooters and battled injuries all year. Harden and Adams would make an amazing pick n roll combo. Put Harden on the Thunder and they win 50+ this year. The talent on that team is much greater than what he had in 14-15.

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

Huh!? The Thunder are 9th in defensive rating right now.

Accidentally copied down opponent ppg.

[Scizzup]

The Rockets had the 8th ranked defense that year. OKC is 16th. Harden at least had a defense, Westbrook is all alone.

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

This is a nice way to look at it but you can also look at this way Dipo/Adams are worse than they were last year on most adv stats. Bpm/Rpm/rapm. asist%/stl%/reb% for Dipo also down. You don't have to do this to make Westbrook look good. TAJ also been worse in okc than he was in Bulls this season. Dipo went from 2BPM to (-1) and Adams went from 2BPM to (0.3). Adams was great last season and there was a legit debate with him and Rudy Gobert.

NBA Preason rank
35: Marc Gasol
36: Steven Adams
37: Rudy Gobert

[E-Balla]

The problem for James Harden is he's the Hillary Clinton of the MVP race. On paper he should win but not enough people actually like the guy.

What's funny about that is there's truth in it but he WON the player's MVP award over Curry in 14-15.

On Lowes podcast they were talking about there possibly being a split between current players and the retired players in the media. The latter think that Westbrook is by far the most impressive, while many current players favor Harden.

I would submit that one perspective comes from watching and evaluating with an eye toward advocating for basketball's classic virtues while the other comes from actually trying to stop what each player is doing.

JJ Redick said a couple years ago that he had Westbrook #1 on his MVP list until he played against OKC with Westbrook in this mode, at which point he just felt like Westbrook was doing too much. I don't remember his specific words but my impression was that he felt like it made OKC predictable and not too hard to stop.

And while some may see that as laughable it has to be noted that the sophisticated take on Westbrook's candidacy stems primarily on how bad they look without him, not how dangerous they are with him.

Now let me note: Despite me being something of a Westbrook skeptic, I'm starting to come around. He might get my vote here. I know that what I wrote there is effectively anti-Westbrook but that's because I needed to elaborate on something counter to the understandable assumption that stuff like this only worked for Westbrook.


Sent from my iPhone using RealGM Forums

OKC is 6-4 vs LAC in the last 3 seasons so it can't be that easy to stop. Its easy to say someone's not improve in theory. Harder to say it when he's busting your butt.

[E-Balla]

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

So all these players are playing worse than they ever had while they were on losing teams, Harden isn't that impactful, and they're probably going to hit 55 wins. Wild.
Guess Beverley and Clint are the ones carrying that team huh

I also enjoy the gymnastics of using 'before he came to' then 'with __ off the floor' with ppg, then pp36, and including TS% only when it benefits your argument

Nice strawman and goal shifting. Also I used ppg for Dipo because he still plays 33 mpg (33.3 last year and 33.0 this year). I excluded his and Taj's TS% because its almost exactly the same as before (54 to 53 with Taj and 53 to 54 with Dipo). With EG I went with his numbers without Harden on the floor because I feel Dantoni made him better but even without that his production is the same as last year. Nice try though. How about someone gets me examples? Don't say Westbrook makes others worse with no examples and don't say Harden makes others better with no examples. Its a lazy argument used to brush off a player having superior teammates.

[K_chile22]

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

So all these players are playing worse than they ever had while they were on losing teams, Harden isn't that impactful, and they're probably going to hit 55 wins. Wild.
Guess Beverley and Clint are the ones carrying that team huh

I also enjoy the gymnastics of using 'before he came to' then 'with __ off the floor' with ppg, then pp36, and including TS% only when it benefits your argument

Nice strawman and goal shifting. Also I used ppg for Dipo because he still plays 33 mpg (33.3 last year and 33.0 this year). I excluded his and Taj's TS% because its almost exactly the same as before (54 to 53 with Taj and 53 to 54 with Dipo). With EG I went with his numbers without Harden on the floor because I feel Dantoni made him better but even without that his production is the same as last year. Nice try though. How about someone gets me examples? Don't say Westbrook makes others worse with no examples and don't say Harden makes others better with no examples. Its a lazy argument used to brush off a player having superior teammates.

I never said WB makes anyone worse, just disagreeing with your premise of Harden not helping anyone. Ryno is having his best TS since he was 23. Nene was not this good with the Wizards, that's BS, higher PER, OPM, and BPM, way higher TS, and higher offensive and overall win shares and WS/48, this is easily his best season since the Nuggets days. It's also probably safe to say Ariza's 2014 season was an outlier, as it was his highest 3p% by over 3%, over 4% from his other Wizard season.
EG also has a higher TS of 57 with Harden on, which would be his best since his Clippers days. You have to take into consideration that the Thunder guys, for the most part, are on the side of the aging curve (Kanter, Oladipo, Grant combine for 13 nba years) where they will get better year to year on their own, the Rockets guys are on the opposite side of that (Ariza, Ryno, Nene, EG have all played at least 9)
Lou has struggled however, I'll give you that one. Most of your points besides Ariza are nothing but smaller usage

Also probably not a coincidence that all 3 of the Rockets centers (Nene, Montrezl Harrell, Capela) are top 11 in TS% among guys with at least 1000 minutes, or 1/3rd of the top 9 in FG%

[E-Balla]

He's not all alone. His game just doesn't fit as easily with others as Harden's does. Westbrook is more of a Kobe style player. An all time great but he can't just play with anybody. Harden is better at making the guys around him better. Westbrook is good at it too because playing with somebody as great as him makes the game easier for others. But Harden is a step ahead of him in that area based on the way he plays the game.

That's just not true. If you look at the production of Westbrook's support when he's not there its a major difference. For example Kanter went from 18/10 on 54 TS% to 22/13 on 61 TS% when traded to OKC midseason. Taj Gibson went from 15.3 pp36 to a way lower 15.0 after being traded to play with that ballhog. Oladipo (a G) went from a staggering 16.1 ppg last year to a way lower 16.0! Jerami Grant went from 13 per 36 on 50 TS% to 10 on 55 this year. There's a long list of guys that have played better with Westbrook.

Now let's see that list for Harden:
...
...
...
...


Oh wait there's no one here. Ryan Anderson went from 20 pp36 to a next to career low 16. Lou Will went from 28 pp36 on 61 TS% to 21 pp36 on 56 TS% when traded to Houston. Eric Gordon averages 26 pp36 on 56 TS% when Harden isn't on the floor. Nene and Ariza both played better in Washington with John Wall. Dwight Howard is playing better than he did with Harden with Schroeder at point. If Harden is better at making guys around him step up their play where's the proof?

Also go look at how guys played next to Kobe if you think he hurt his teammates. You'd be surprised. Pau was ight in Memphis but he was All NBA next to Kobe.

This is a nice way to look at it but you can also look at this way Dipo/Adams are worse than they were last year on most adv stats. Bpm/Rpm/rapm. asist%/stl%/reb% for Dipo also down. You don't have to do this to make Westbrook look good. TAJ also been worse in okc than he was in Bulls this season. Dipo went from 2BPM to (-1) and Adams went from 2BPM to (0.3). Adams was great last season and there was a legit debate with him and Rudy Gobert.

NBA Preason rank
35: Marc Gasol
36: Steven Adams
37: Rudy Gobert

1. Adams' PG last year was? Oh yeah RUSSELL WESTBROOK!

2. Tell me what the RAPM difference is because unless you calculated it yourself no one has it.

3. Go look up Dipo's numbers without Westbrook on the floor. Someone PM'de about it. He's garbage when he's on the floor alone running things.

4. Taj's boxscore is basically the same outside of blocks and DRB. OKC is a +6.1 team with him on the floor though. OKC's been playing way better since getting him.