Pippen on First Take about Jordan vs Lebron

[AndriPerdhian93]

I'm sorry but Lebron's performance against the Mavs in the 2011 finals make this not even a conversation for me.

Aye jordan flu game, you see how stacked da bull is.

[hege53190]

He's right. When you consider the talent and coaching MJ had around him, as well as the significantly weaker opposition in the Finals, I think it's clear the say LeBron has definitely surpassed MJ in stats as well as overall standing.

Lebron has had great talent around him post 10
Coaching sure, the talent disparity is not huge

For sure, although the 2015 finals team was decimated by injuries.

I think the biggest difference between the league that MJ played in and the one Bron plays in now is MJ didn't have a team nearly as good as the current Golden State team standing in his way during his prime. He road out the Celtic/Lakers/Pistons era and after that the Bulls had the best roster for every season he played from 1991 onward.

The flip side of this is LeBron has basically been his own GM since 2010. LeBron was playing with 2 all NBA Calibur players from 2010-2014. He picked Love and Irving to play with.

Sure KD went to the warriors. But one of the main reasons was to combat the superteams that LeBron was creating since 2010.

[leolozon]

What is the goal? Winning or it’s like a show to impress?
If you want to win, Lebron is in the same tier of Curry not in MJ or even Kobe tier. It’s not a great winner, not worth a discussion.
If you want to view from an hedonistic point of view, sure it’s a joy to watch.

Another person that can't comprehend that basketball is a team sport... It shouldn't be that complicated to see that there's more than 1 player on a roster. The team wins, not the individual.

REGULAR SEASON

Win shares
Jordan 214
Lebron 211.8 (will pass Jordan this year and will never look behind)
Kobe 172.7

Win shares per 48
Jordan .250
Lebron .240
Kobe .170

PLAYOFFS

Win shares
Lebron 48.8
Jordan 39.8
Kobe 28.3

Win shares per 48
Jordan .255
Lebron .241
Kobe .157

Like we all know, Jordan had more impact in a shorter period of time, but Lebron will have better longevity.Depending on what you value most, Jordan and Lebron will both have a case.

Kobe isn't even in the discussion. Never was, never will be.

[LBJKB24MJ23]

What is the goal? Winning or it’s like a show to impress?
If you want to win, Lebron is in the same tier of Curry not in MJ or even Kobe tier. It’s not a great winner, not worth a discussion.
If you want to view from an hedonistic point of view, sure it’s a joy to watch.

gtfo with Kobe. overrated POS compared to Lebron or Jordan

[Warren G]

Lol Jordan as a quitter ok. Thanks for the daily laugh!

Jordan himself said he was mentally exhausted. Couldn't stand up to the rigors of the NBA for more than 9 years. LeBron going on 15, GOAT!

If you can't give someone a pass after their parent/best friend was murdered, there's not much to discuss. Ive seen people say Jordan quit a million times and it really is an insult. Lose someone close to you, see where your priorities lye.

It's a good thing Lebron will never have to worry about this because he doesn't know who knocked up Gloria 32 years ago.

Offensive and baiting of a fanbase.
-Duke

[hege53190]

Jordan himself said he was mentally exhausted. Couldn't stand up to the rigors of the NBA for more than 9 years. LeBron going on 15, GOAT!

If you can't give someone a pass after their parent/best friend was murdered, there's not much to discuss. Ive seen people say Jordan quit a million times and it really is an insult. Lose someone close to you, see where your priorities lye.

It's a good thing Lebron will never have to worry about this because he doesn't know who knocked up Gloria 32 years ago.

My money is on Delonte West in a Delorean Terminator style.

[The_Hater]

Lebron has had great talent around him post 10
Coaching sure, the talent disparity is not huge

For sure, although the 2015 finals team was decimated by injuries.

I think the biggest difference between the league that MJ played in and the one Bron plays in now is MJ didn't have a team nearly as good as the current Golden State team standing in his way during his prime. He road out the Celtic/Lakers/Pistons era and after that the Bulls had the best roster for every season he played from 1991 onward.

Ludicrous claim.

Payton 19-8-3
Kemp 19-11
Schrempf 17-5-4
Hawkings 16-5
Perkins 12-5

vs

Jordan 30-6-6
Pippen 19-6-6
Longley 9-5
Harper 7-3
Rodman 5-15

How is the Bulls a better roster?

Jordan made them the better roster.

Swap MJ for Payton, who has the best roster now do you think? Does Payton make up for Rodman's 5ppg?

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Tom Chambers, Richard Dumars, all scoring in double figures.

That's a stacked team!

Vets like Chambers, Ainge, Mark West. Young athletic scorers like Dumars, Ceballos, KJ. 1st team defense in Dan Majerle. Cedric Ceballos scorer 21ppg in 2 seasons with the Lakers when he left them. KJ suffered injuries but had 20-10 at 30 years old in 1996-97, you know, when Kobe was coming off the bench for the Lakers! Tom Chambers was an absolute stud (with one of the best dunks ever) and only 3 seasons removed from scoring 27ppg. Richard Dumas got kicked from the league for drugs, but was a beast and you would know his name today if he hadn't. Supremely athletic with a killer midrange.

The Bulls roster was better because they had the greatest player of all time along with another HOFer. When Rodman joined they had 3.

That Sonics team features exactly one hall of famer. And he’s not even one of the 30 greatest players ever.

That Suns team featured exactly one hall of famer although KJ is borderline and may eventually get in.

Meanwhile the current Warriors have 2 surefire HOFers and 2 others who are trending that direction.

Listing player stats doesn’t really support your claim here either. The Suns scored a lot because they played at a high pace.

[macNcheese3]

blasphemous

[Johnny Kilroy]

Worst record in the West today Carlisle beat Bron in the Finals leaning heavily on Jason Kidd (38 at the time, 17th season in the league) and Deshawn Stevenson (out of the league 2 years later) in Bron's second finals when Bron was there with his hand picked collusion team.

If you're getting D-ed up by old Kidd and a marginal NBA talent and still choke....

Kidd/Stevenson shut down absolute physical peak LeBron.

What could be more embarrassing than that? The only thing I can think of is getting torched to the nth degree by someone like JJ Barea.

[Warren G]

Remember when Lebron "coughed" up a 2-1 lead by coughing at the camera, making light of his opponents sickness in 2011?

If Lebron had half the heart Dirk showed that year he'd have a finals record in the positive

[Ainosterhaspie]

For sure, although the 2015 finals team was decimated by injuries.

I think the biggest difference between the league that MJ played in and the one Bron plays in now is MJ didn't have a team nearly as good as the current Golden State team standing in his way during his prime. He road out the Celtic/Lakers/Pistons era and after that the Bulls had the best roster for every season he played from 1991 onward.

Ludicrous claim.

Payton 19-8-3
Kemp 19-11
Schrempf 17-5-4
Hawkings 16-5
Perkins 12-5

vs

Jordan 30-6-6
Pippen 19-6-6
Longley 9-5
Harper 7-3
Rodman 5-15

How is the Bulls a better roster?

Jordan made them the better roster.

Swap MJ for Payton, who has the best roster now do you think? Does Payton make up for Rodman's 5ppg?

Barkley had Kevin Johnson, Cedric Ceballos, Dan Majerle, Danny Ainge, Tom Chambers, Richard Dumars, all scoring in double figures.

That's a stacked team!

Vets like Chambers, Ainge, Mark West. Young athletic scorers like Dumars, Ceballos, KJ. 1st team defense in Dan Majerle. Cedric Ceballos scorer 21ppg in 2 seasons with the Lakers when he left them. KJ suffered injuries but had 20-10 at 30 years old in 1996-97, you know, when Kobe was coming off the bench for the Lakers! Tom Chambers was an absolute stud (with one of the best dunks ever) and only 3 seasons removed from scoring 27ppg. Richard Dumas got kicked from the league for drugs, but was a beast and you would know his name today if he hadn't. Supremely athletic with a killer midrange.

The Bulls roster was better because they had the greatest player of all time along with another HOFer. When Rodman joined they had 3.

That Sonics team features exactly one hall of famer. And he’s not even one of the 30 greatest players ever.

That Suns team featured exactly one hall of famer although KJ is borderline and may eventually get in.

Meanwhile the current Warriors have 2 surefire HOFers and 2 others who are trending that direction.

Listing player stats doesn’t really support your claim here either. The Suns scored a lot because they played at a high pace.

Klay seems like he's very likely to get in already. Has the record for most points in a quarter. Key contributor in three finals with two rings. Great shooter. Very good defender. Multiple all star appearances.

Iguodala has a legit shot. How many finals MVPs aren't in the HOF?

Green has excellent odds of making it. Needs to have a few more great years, but multiple DPOY/DPOY runner up seasons and being the central hub for an all time offense puts him right there.

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

[JonFromVA]

Worst record in the West today Carlisle beat Bron in the Finals leaning heavily on Jason Kidd (38 at the time, 17th season in the league) and Deshawn Stevenson (out of the league 2 years later) in Bron's second finals when Bron was there with his hand picked collusion team.

If you're getting D-ed up by old Kidd and a marginal NBA talent and still choke....

Kidd/Stevenson shut down absolute physical peak LeBron.

What could be more embarrassing than that? The only thing I can think of is getting torched to the nth degree by someone like JJ Barea.

Welcome to the new NBA.

If your team can't spread the floor and knock down perimeter shots, you're going to see a whole lot of bodies and zones thrown at you - and they will work.

The Heatles weren't supposed to win it all their first year together ... what the Celtics pulled off in 2008 was the exception, not the rule for throwing together teams. They had a shot because they were facing Dallas who hadn't been able to reach the finals up until then, but Carlisle came up with a great plan to take advantage of the fact that the Heat offense was incomplete and unevolved.

[Warren G]

Worst record in the West today Carlisle beat Bron in the Finals leaning heavily on Jason Kidd (38 at the time, 17th season in the league) and Deshawn Stevenson (out of the league 2 years later) in Bron's second finals when Bron was there with his hand picked collusion team.

If you're getting D-ed up by old Kidd and a marginal NBA talent and still choke....

Kidd/Stevenson shut down absolute physical peak LeBron.

What could be more embarrassing than that? The only thing I can think of is getting torched to the nth degree by someone like JJ Barea.

Welcome to the new NBA.

If your team can't spread the floor and knock down perimeter shots, you're going to see a whole lot of bodies and zones thrown at you - and they will work.

The Heatles weren't supposed to win it all their first year together ... what the Celtics pulled off in 2008 was the exception, not the rule for throwing together teams. They had a shot because they were facing Dallas who hadn't been able to reach the finals up until then, but Carlisle came up with a great plan to take advantage of the fact that the Heat offense was incomplete and unevolved.

Mavs lost the 2006 finals to Wade and some dubious reffing, to put it lightly. That first finals loss lit a fire under Dirk, didn't seem to do the same to Bron.

[Hero]

Jordan himself said he was mentally exhausted. Couldn't stand up to the rigors of the NBA for more than 9 years. LeBron going on 15, GOAT!

If you can't give someone a pass after their parent/best friend was murdered, there's not much to discuss. Ive seen people say Jordan quit a million times and it really is an insult. Lose someone close to you, see where your priorities lye.

It's a good thing Lebron will never have to worry about this because he doesn't know who knocked up Gloria 32 years ago.

Seriously? You're attacking the man because of the circumstances around how he was conceived?

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

[Warren G]

If you can't give someone a pass after their parent/best friend was murdered, there's not much to discuss. Ive seen people say Jordan quit a million times and it really is an insult. Lose someone close to you, see where your priorities lye.

It's a good thing Lebron will never have to worry about this because he doesn't know who knocked up Gloria 32 years ago.

Seriously? You're attacking the man because of the circumstances around how he was conceived?

Sent from my [device_name] using [url]RealGM mobile app[/url]

It was a joke, Howdy, a JOKE!

If I wanted to attack him for that I could've gone in on how he never got the right guidance as a kid and all that and taken some Skip takes and expounded on them, there are many ways to attack that angle. It was a contrast to those giving **** to Jordan for retiring after his Pops died, is there a difference to you, for these things out of our control?

[JonFromVA]

Kidd/Stevenson shut down absolute physical peak LeBron.

What could be more embarrassing than that? The only thing I can think of is getting torched to the nth degree by someone like JJ Barea.

Welcome to the new NBA.

If your team can't spread the floor and knock down perimeter shots, you're going to see a whole lot of bodies and zones thrown at you - and they will work.

The Heatles weren't supposed to win it all their first year together ... what the Celtics pulled off in 2008 was the exception, not the rule for throwing together teams. They had a shot because they were facing Dallas who hadn't been able to reach the finals up until then, but Carlisle came up with a great plan to take advantage of the fact that the Heat offense was incomplete and unevolved.

Mavs lost the 2006 finals to Wade and some dubious reffing, to put it lightly. That first finals loss lit a fire under Dirk, didn't seem to do the same to Bron.

I'm not sure I'd call that a fire ... the Mavs went out in the first round 3x after losing in the finals. They just finally hit on the right combination of teammates and depth to compliment Dirk combined with the right opponent to beat. Albeit Cuban loved to tinker, their core was more established than a team that was just thrown together in the previous off-season.

[dabonett]

What is the goal? Winning or it’s like a show to impress?
If you want to win, Lebron is in the same tier of Curry not in MJ or even Kobe tier. It’s not a great winner, not worth a discussion.
If you want to view from an hedonistic point of view, sure it’s a joy to watch.

Another person that can't comprehend that basketball is a team sport... It shouldn't be that complicated to see that there's more than 1 player on a roster. The team wins, not the individual.

REGULAR SEASON

Win shares
Jordan 214
Lebron 211.8 (will pass Jordan this year and will never look behind)
Kobe 172.7

Win shares per 48
.250
.240
.170

PLAYOFFS

Win shares
Lebron 48.8
Jordan 39.8
Kobe 28.3

Win shares per 48
Jordan .255
Lebron .241
Kobe .157

Like we all know, Jordan had more impact in a shorter period of time, but Lebron will have better longevity.Depending on what you value most, Jordan and Lebron will both have a case.

Kobe isn't even in the discussion. Never was, never will be.

And still he has 5 and Lebron 3
And he did not lose against Italy
Win share is a joke and he chose east and all stars to play with. Che perdente

[bmurph128]

Off topic but I would love to see LeBron and Kawhi play together. Be an inversed (and better) version of MJ and Pippen. Would destroy the Warriors IMO.

[Warren G]

Welcome to the new NBA.

If your team can't spread the floor and knock down perimeter shots, you're going to see a whole lot of bodies and zones thrown at you - and they will work.

The Heatles weren't supposed to win it all their first year together ... what the Celtics pulled off in 2008 was the exception, not the rule for throwing together teams. They had a shot because they were facing Dallas who hadn't been able to reach the finals up until then, but Carlisle came up with a great plan to take advantage of the fact that the Heat offense was incomplete and unevolved.

Mavs lost the 2006 finals to Wade and some dubious reffing, to put it lightly. That first finals loss lit a fire under Dirk, didn't seem to do the same to Bron.

I'm not sure I'd call that a fire ... the Mavs went out in the first round 3x after losing in the finals. They just finally hit on the right combination of teammates and depth to compliment Dirk combined with the right opponent to beat. Albeit Cuban loved to tinker, their core was more established than a team that was just thrown together in the previous off-season.

Yeah, most guys who lose one year aren't necessarily going to come back the next year and get revenge (KAwhi did, tho).

People talk about Lebron "dragging" that 07 team to the Finals, I've never seen a bigger talent disparity between two teams where the lesser team came out on top in all of the Finals I've seen. Dirk dragged old Kidd, Stevenson, JJ Barea and the Jet to a finals win over 3 first ballot hall of famers.

[JonFromVA]

Off topic but I would love to see LeBron and Kawhi play together. Be an inversed (and better) version of MJ and Pippen. Would destroy the Warriors IMO.

I guess Kidd never quite pulled it off in Milwaukee, but it would be curious to see what an all 6'7"+ long/athletic freak team that could legitimately switch 1 to 5 could do.

LeBron's getting a bit old to play a part in a team like that; but something like Kawhi, Giannis, Simmons, Brown/Tatum, and Butler might be able to sustain the defensive level.