could elena delle donne play in the nba?

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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#281 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:20 pm

jlokine wrote:here's why i dont think she can play in the nba...

i dont even know who she is so i went to youtube her... right from the get go of this video, they said she has the size of a post player.. and you tell me she's 6'5" 187lb... that's a guard size in the nba. she plays within 15' a lot in this video. which she would have no chance at the nba.. her 1st step is slow.. it's ok against wnba players, but even with boban's lateral movement, is quicker than her first step. so she wouldnt b quick enough to be a guard and she'd be too small to play in the paint.



Her game is so filthy, I love it. I dunno how anyone could have watched that WAS/LAV game last night and found it be boring.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#282 » by bisme37 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:33 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
jlokine wrote:here's why i dont think she can play in the nba...

i dont even know who she is so i went to youtube her... right from the get go of this video, they said she has the size of a post player.. and you tell me she's 6'5" 187lb... that's a guard size in the nba. she plays within 15' a lot in this video. which she would have no chance at the nba.. her 1st step is slow.. it's ok against wnba players, but even with boban's lateral movement, is quicker than her first step. so she wouldnt b quick enough to be a guard and she'd be too small to play in the paint.



Her game is so filthy, I love it. I dunno how anyone could have watched that WAS/LAV game last night and found it be boring.


Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#283 » by The_Hater » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:37 pm

bisme37 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
jlokine wrote:here's why i dont think she can play in the nba...

i dont even know who she is so i went to youtube her... right from the get go of this video, they said she has the size of a post player.. and you tell me she's 6'5" 187lb... that's a guard size in the nba. she plays within 15' a lot in this video. which she would have no chance at the nba.. her 1st step is slow.. it's ok against wnba players, but even with boban's lateral movement, is quicker than her first step. so she wouldnt b quick enough to be a guard and she'd be too small to play in the paint.



Her game is so filthy, I love it. I dunno how anyone could have watched that WAS/LAV game last night and found it be boring.


Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.


Or you’re just making a bunch of assumptions about ‘men’ who might have a different opinion and different taste for entertainment then you do.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#284 » by 12footrim » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:40 pm

There is just no way. I don't think she would get on the court on good college teams.

Tennis is probably the most athletic sport that women can realistically compete with men in and they can't even really compete there. Serena Williams who is a beast of an athlete by almost any women's standards and is bigger and serves faster than lots of men (129 MPH all time high) is still routinely gets worked by men hitting partners ranked 500+ in the world and she's clearly the GOAT and different than most women athletically with strength and speed.

She played a guy 203 ranked in the world and he beat her 6-1 and her sister 6-2 after they claimed they could beat a any man ranked outside the top 200. Estimations of guys like John McEnroe who watch tennis a lot and train players say she wouldn't crack the top 700 men in the world and in basketball I think the discrepancy would be even more ridiculous.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#285 » by bisme37 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:41 pm

The_Hater wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Her game is so filthy, I love it. I dunno how anyone could have watched that WAS/LAV game last night and found it be boring.


Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.


Or you’re just making a bunch of assumptions about ‘men’ who might have a different opinion and different taste for entertainment then you do.


If you don't fit what I said there's really no reason to be offended by my comment. I understand different people are going to have different taste and different reasons, and I certainly didn't call anyone out in particular.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#286 » by The_Hater » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:47 pm

bisme37 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.


Or you’re just making a bunch of assumptions about ‘men’ who might have a different opinion and different taste for entertainment then you do.


If you don't fit what I said there's really no reason to be offended by my comment. I understand different people are going to have different taste and different reasons, and I certainly didn't call anyone out in particular.


I’m not offended personally, but I do call out people when they try to paint a large group with one brush without any factual proof. Calling out one specific. person, with proof, wouldn’t have offended me at all.

And if you’re calling out sexism here, then you should recognize that your post was equally sexist.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#287 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:50 pm

bisme37 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
jlokine wrote:here's why i dont think she can play in the nba...

i dont even know who she is so i went to youtube her... right from the get go of this video, they said she has the size of a post player.. and you tell me she's 6'5" 187lb... that's a guard size in the nba. she plays within 15' a lot in this video. which she would have no chance at the nba.. her 1st step is slow.. it's ok against wnba players, but even with boban's lateral movement, is quicker than her first step. so she wouldnt b quick enough to be a guard and she'd be too small to play in the paint.



Her game is so filthy, I love it. I dunno how anyone could have watched that WAS/LAV game last night and found it be boring.


Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.



I dunno if that was a foul at the end, it looked to me that Kelsey Plum initiated the contact with Delle Donne on that shot attempt. Had she not tried to draw the foul and EDD just ran into her yeah, but I can see why the refs didn't call it.

But yeah that was a great game, Emma Meesseman was TEARING the Aces up inside and from deep all night, I think she had like 27 and 10. Tomorrow's game should be another good one.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#288 » by mademan » Wed Sep 18, 2019 4:52 pm

I actually like watching her play, but there's just no way. The mens league is too physical and too athletic. There's strong high school teams she couldnt make; D1 is almost out of the question and the NBA is a pipe dream
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#289 » by bisme37 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:06 pm

The_Hater wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
The_Hater wrote:
Or you’re just making a bunch of assumptions about ‘men’ who might have a different opinion and different taste for entertainment then you do.


If you don't fit what I said there's really no reason to be offended by my comment. I understand different people are going to have different taste and different reasons, and I certainly didn't call anyone out in particular.


I’m not offended personally, but I do call out people when they try to paint a large group with one brush without any factual proof. Calling out one specific. person, with proof, wouldn’t have offended me at all.

And if you’re calling out sexism here, then you should recognize that your post was equally sexist.


I didn't think I was calling out sexism. I was more calling out herd mentality and just musing about the illogic of some of the comments I've seen here and on other sites. If my comment was sexist I'm really not seeing it, but OK, I guess I'm sexist. A lot of my fellow men are total goofs imo.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#290 » by bisme37 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 5:09 pm

MrDollarBills wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
Her game is so filthy, I love it. I dunno how anyone could have watched that WAS/LAV game last night and found it be boring.


Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.



I dunno if that was a foul at the end, it looked to me that Kelsey Plum initiated the contact with Delle Donne on that shot attempt. Had she not tried to draw the foul and EDD just ran into her yeah, but I can see why the refs didn't call it.

But yeah that was a great game, Emma Meesseman was TEARING the Aces up inside and from deep all night, I think she had like 27 and 10. Tomorrow's game should be another good one.


I thought EDD clearly ran her over and it was a definite foul. But I see the argument you're making. To me though, I think Plum was focused on the defenders in front of her and trying to get a clean shot off to win the game, and I don't know if she even knew EDD was behind her.

Another thing... Laimbeer was screaming for a time out the whole final possession but the refs didn't grant it.

And yeah, Meeseman was terrific. The Mystics did a great job of battling the Aces' bigger front line.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#291 » by Threethrows » Wed Sep 18, 2019 6:46 pm

No current or former WNBA player would stand a chance in the NBA. Most of them wouldn't even be able to function as practice fodder as harsh as it sounds.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#292 » by Ecmic » Wed Sep 18, 2019 8:32 pm

post wrote:
jlokine wrote:here's why i dont think she can play in the nba...

i dont even know who she is so i went to youtube her... right from the get go of this video, they said she has the size of a post player.. and you tell me she's 6'5" 187lb... that's a guard size in the nba. she plays within 15' a lot in this video. which she would have no chance at the nba.. her 1st step is slow.. it's ok against wnba players, but even with boban's lateral movement, is quicker than her first step. so she wouldnt b quick enough to be a guard and she'd be too small to play in the paint.



this has all been addressed already in terms of her physical deficits. i'd expect her to do mostly catch and shoot stuff in the nba. so i'll just add delle donne has the lowest turnover percentage in wnba history. an interesting fact an nba team might find impressive


If history is a guide, she'd lose somewhere between 2-3% on her three pointer in the NBA (and this isn't factoring the difference in absolute defensive pressures between the NBA and WNBA). There just wouldn't be interest in a 37% (probably less) three-point shooter that would be a liability in pretty much every other aspect of the game.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#293 » by MrDollarBills » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:11 pm

bisme37 wrote:
MrDollarBills wrote:
bisme37 wrote:
Great game aside from I was annoyed by the missed call at the end. Plum should have gone to the line with a chance to send it to overtime.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure the people who say its boring haven't actually watched it for more than 5 minutes, or at all. Seems like people just think it's "uncool" and want to parrot the negative comments they hear and read others saying. And there seem to be a lot of dudes who want to prove how manly and heterosexual they are by constantly yelling about how awful it is to watch fit young women run and jump around on a basketball court. Which.... uhhhhhh.... lol.



I dunno if that was a foul at the end, it looked to me that Kelsey Plum initiated the contact with Delle Donne on that shot attempt. Had she not tried to draw the foul and EDD just ran into her yeah, but I can see why the refs didn't call it.

But yeah that was a great game, Emma Meesseman was TEARING the Aces up inside and from deep all night, I think she had like 27 and 10. Tomorrow's game should be another good one.


I thought EDD clearly ran her over and it was a definite foul. But I see the argument you're making. To me though, I think Plum was focused on the defenders in front of her and trying to get a clean shot off to win the game, and I don't know if she even knew EDD was behind her.

Another thing... Laimbeer was screaming for a time out the whole final possession but the refs didn't grant it.

And yeah, Meeseman was terrific. The Mystics did a great job of battling the Aces' bigger front line.


Yeah, how the refs missed Laimbeer calling for time was atrocious.

I'll have to watch the play again but I swear Plum kind of leaned into Delle Donne on purpose in order to draw a foul. I could be wrong.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#294 » by Woodsanity » Wed Sep 18, 2019 9:15 pm

Nope athleticism difference is simply too much.
Top tier wnba players are far less athletic than even end of the bench nba players. The key problem is they won't be able to play defense at all so even shooting threes at a good clip won't help.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#295 » by post » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:30 pm

Ecmic wrote:
post wrote:
jlokine wrote:here's why i dont think she can play in the nba...

i dont even know who she is so i went to youtube her... right from the get go of this video, they said she has the size of a post player.. and you tell me she's 6'5" 187lb... that's a guard size in the nba. she plays within 15' a lot in this video. which she would have no chance at the nba.. her 1st step is slow.. it's ok against wnba players, but even with boban's lateral movement, is quicker than her first step. so she wouldnt b quick enough to be a guard and she'd be too small to play in the paint.



this has all been addressed already in terms of her physical deficits. i'd expect her to do mostly catch and shoot stuff in the nba. so i'll just add delle donne has the lowest turnover percentage in wnba history. an interesting fact an nba team might find impressive


If history is a guide, she'd lose somewhere between 2-3% on her three pointer in the NBA (and this isn't factoring the difference in absolute defensive pressures between the NBA and WNBA). There just wouldn't be interest in a 37% (probably less) three-point shooter that would be a liability in pretty much every other aspect of the game.


over the last 4 years she shot a combined 41% from 3. she's played 7 seasons. her rookie year she shot 43% from 3. her second year she missed a lot of time with injury and had a sub par 3 point shooting year for her. her third year was a great year overall but an outlier from 3 as she shot 31% from 3. so if you take her last four years and her rookie year from 3 she's at 41.8% for her career from 3 which is a more accurate estimate of how she really shoots from 3 when healthy.

in terms of her percentages going down based on history, i'm not sure what you are referring to, but let's compare her to curry. curry shot 41% from 3 in college. he shoots 43% from 3 in the nba. now i suspect the defense in the nba would lower her percentages, but if she's starting with a 41.8% and it gets knocked down to 39.8% because of nba defense that still makes her a roughly 40% 3 point shooter
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#296 » by Ecmic » Wed Sep 18, 2019 10:56 pm

post wrote:
Ecmic wrote:
post wrote:
this has all been addressed already in terms of her physical deficits. i'd expect her to do mostly catch and shoot stuff in the nba. so i'll just add delle donne has the lowest turnover percentage in wnba history. an interesting fact an nba team might find impressive


If history is a guide, she'd lose somewhere between 2-3% on her three pointer in the NBA (and this isn't factoring the difference in absolute defensive pressures between the NBA and WNBA). There just wouldn't be interest in a 37% (probably less) three-point shooter that would be a liability in pretty much every other aspect of the game.


over the last 4 years she shot a combined 41% from 3. she's played 7 seasons. her rookie year she shot 43% from 3. her second year she missed a lot of time with injury and had a sub par 3 point shooting year for her. her third year was a great year overall but an outlier from 3 as she shot 31% from 3. so if you take her last four years and her rookie year from 3 she's at 41.8% for her career from 3 which is a more accurate estimate of how she really shoots from 3 when healthy.

in terms of her percentages going down based on history, i'm not sure what you are referring to, but let's compare her to curry. curry shot 41% from 3 in college. he shoots 43% from 3 in the nba. now i suspect the defense in the nba would lower her percentages, but if she's starting with a 41.8% and it gets knocked down to 39.8% because of nba defense that still makes her a roughly 40% 3 point shooter



I was referencing the trend that developed when the NBA moved the three point line to, basically, the WNBA’s current distance for a few years in the 90s.

The five year trend of ~33% three-point shooting prior to the relocation (with little variance) shot up to 36% basically overnight. That’s the most cut-and-dry, variable-controlled data we have for how distance affects percentage.

Move a 41.5% shooter at 22’2” back to 23’9”, and historical data shows they’re going to lose 2-3% on their shot. Factor in a transition from shooting against a WNBA defense to shooting against an NBA defense, and it’s more than reasonable to assume that Delle Donne would shoot somewhere in the range of 36-38% in the NBA.

My personal view is that’s still too rosy, but even still, it’s no where close to elite enough to cover for every other weakness.
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#297 » by NCHeels2008 » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:28 pm

OzThunder wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I understand the logic, there are 3 point shooters in the NBA who cannot play defense - but she really, really, would not be able to play defense in the NBA. She is too weak and slow.

Also, her shot might not translate depending on how fast her release is (I've never seen her play).

Comparing her to a rookie is erogenous because there are players in the NBA who are put in for potential. Elena wouldn't have any potential, thus, her being a bit better than a horrible rookie wouldn't be relevant (and she isn't better than said rookie player).


Love this...


erogenous was my favorite part, comparing her to a rookie is an area that deeply arouses him apparently
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#298 » by HeartBreakKid » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:51 pm

NCHeels2008 wrote:
OzThunder wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:I understand the logic, there are 3 point shooters in the NBA who cannot play defense - but she really, really, would not be able to play defense in the NBA. She is too weak and slow.

Also, her shot might not translate depending on how fast her release is (I've never seen her play).

Comparing her to a rookie is erogenous because there are players in the NBA who are put in for potential. Elena wouldn't have any potential, thus, her being a bit better than a horrible rookie wouldn't be relevant (and she isn't better than said rookie player).


Love this...


erogenous was my favorite part, comparing her to a rookie is an area that deeply arouses him apparently
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#299 » by Shock Defeat » Thu Sep 19, 2019 12:35 am

gundysmullet wrote:
Shock Defeat wrote:
gundysmullet wrote:
Believing that you are the opposite gender of what you are is “harming yourself“. And to perpetuate the lie does hurt them. If I told you I was a cocker spaniel would you put a leash on me, rub my belly and let me go poop in the backyard? No, you would tell me that you care about me but I need help. Yet men are claiming to be women, and vice versa when biology tells us this is a lie and we just nod our head like barking seals because it makes us feel good about ourselves.

There's a reason that there's science, and yes, biological support, for trans but not anything to support people believing that they are a different skin color, or a different mammal. Given that you don't even know this, your arguments are pure BS. Straight up.

You seem unintelligent on this subject. Hope you don't get offended at this comment but I'm just calling it how I read it.


What on earth does this even mean? It's completely incoherent. Science says that you are male or female, biology and genetics dictate that. There is zero evidence for a "trans" gene. What are you talking about? :noway:

I am talking about you not doing basic research, making your arguments BS.

Genetics
A 2008 study compared 112 male-to-female transsexuals (both androphilic and gynephilic), mostly already undergoing hormone treatment, with 258 cisgender male controls. Male-to-female transsexuals were more likely than cisgender males to have a longer version of a receptor gene (longer repetitions of the gene) for the sex hormone androgen or testosterone, which reduced its effectiveness at binding testosterone.[5] The androgen receptor (NR3C4) is activated by the binding of testosterone or dihydrotestosterone, where it plays a critical role in the forming of primary and secondary male sex characteristics. The research suggests reduced androgen and androgen signaling contributes to the female gender identity of male-to-female transsexuals. The authors say that a decrease in testosterone levels in the brain during development might prevent complete masculinization of the brain in male-to-female transsexuals and thereby cause a more feminized brain and a female gender identity.[5][7]

A variant genotype for a gene called CYP17, which acts on the sex hormones pregnenolone and progesterone, has been found to be linked to female-to-male transsexuality but not MtF transsexuality. Most notably, the FtM subjects not only had the variant genotype more frequently, but had an allele distribution equivalent to male controls, unlike the female controls. The paper concluded that the loss of a female-specific CYP17 T -34C allele distribution pattern is associated with FtM transsexuality.[6]

Transsexuality among twins
In 2013, a twin study combined a survey of pairs of twins where one or both had undergone, or had plans and medical approval to undergo, gender transition, with a literature review of published reports of transgender twins. The study found that one third of identical twin pairs in the sample were both transgender: 13 of 39 (33%) monozygotic or identical pairs of assigned males and 8 of 35 (22.8%) pairs of assigned females. Among dizygotic or genetically non-identical twin pairs, there was only 1 of 38 (2.6%) pairs where both twins were trans.[4] The significant percent of identical twin pairs in which both twins are trans and the virtual absence of dizygotic twins (raised in the same family at the same time) in which both were trans would provide evidence that transgender identity is significantly influenced by genetics if both sets were raised in different families.[4]

Brain structure
Several studies have found a correlation between gender identity and brain structure.[8] A first-of-its-kind study by Zhou et al. (1995) found that in a region of the brain called the bed nucleus of the stria terminalis (BSTc), a region which is known for sex and anxiety responses (and which is affected by prenatal androgens),[9] cadavers of six persons who were described as having been male-to-female transsexual or transgender persons in life had female-normal BSTc size, similar to the study's cadavers of cisgender women. While the transsexuals studied had taken hormones, this was accounted for by including cadavers of non-transsexual male and female controls who, for a variety of medical reasons, had experienced hormone reversal. The controls still had sizes typical for their gender. No relationship to sexual orientation was found.[10]

In a follow-up study, Kruijver et al. (2000) looked at the number of neurons in BSTc instead of volumes. They found the same results as Zhou et al. (1995), but with even more dramatic differences. One MtF subject, who had never gone on hormones, was also included and matched up with the female neuron counts nonetheless.[11]

In 2002, a follow-up study by Chung et al. found that significant sexual dimorphism (variation between sexes) in BSTc did not become established until adulthood. Chung et al. theorized that either changes in fetal hormone levels produce changes in BSTc synaptic density, neuronal activity, or neurochemical content which later lead to size and neuron count changes in BSTc, or that the size of BSTc is affected by the generation of a gender identity inconsistent with one's assigned sex.[12]

It has been suggested that the BSTc differences may be due to the effects of Hormone Replacement Therapy. It has also been suggested that because pedophilic offenders have also been found to have a reduced BSTc, a feminine BSTc may be a marker for paraphilias rather than transsexuality.[13]

In a review of the evidence in 2006, Gooren confirmed the earlier research as supporting the concept of transsexuality as a sexual differentiation disorder of the sex dimorphic brain.[14] Dick Swaab (2004) concurs.[15] A 2016 review agreed with the other reviews when considering androphilic trans women and gynephilic trans men. In addition, it found support for the predictions of Blanchard's transsexualism typology that androphilic and non-androphilic trans women have different brain phenotypes, with the latter differing from both cisgender male and female controls in non-dimorphic brain areas. It also noted that hormone treatment may have large effects on the brain.[13]

In 2008, a new region with properties similar to that of BSTc in regards to transsexuality was found by Garcia-Falgueras and Swaab: the interstitial nucleus of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3), part of the hypothalamic uncinate nucleus. The same method of controlling for hormone usage was used as in Zhou et al. (1995) and Kruijver et al. (2000). The differences were even more pronounced than with BSTc; control males averaged 1.9 times the volume and 2.3 times the neurons as control females, yet once again, regardless of hormone exposure, MtF transsexuals lay within the female range and the FtM transsexual within the male range.[16]

A 2009 MRI study by Luders et al. of 24 MtF transsexuals not yet treated with cross-sex hormones found that regional gray matter concentrations were more similar to those of cisgender men than to those of cisgender women, but there was a significantly larger volume of gray matter in the right putamen compared to cisgender men. Like earlier studies, it concluded that transsexuality was associated with a distinct cerebral pattern.[17] (MRI allows easier study of larger brain structures, but independent nuclei are not visible due to lack of contrast between different neurological tissue types, hence other studies on e.g. BSTc were done by dissecting brains post-mortem.)

An additional feature was studied in a group of FtM transsexuals who had not yet received cross-sex hormones: fractional anisotropy values for white matter in the medial and posterior parts of the right superior longitudinal fasciculus (SLF), the forceps minor, and the corticospinal tract. Rametti et al. (2010) discovered that, "Compared to control females, FtM showed higher FA values in posterior part of the right SLF, the forceps minor and corticospinal tract. Compared to control males, FtM showed only lower FA values in the corticospinal tract."[18]

Hulshoff Pol et al. (2006) studied the gross brain volume of 8 male-to-female transsexuals and in 6 female-to-male transsexuals undergoing hormone treatment. They found that hormones changed the sizes of the hypothalamus in a gender consistent manner: treatment with male hormones shifted the hypothalamus towards the male direction in the same way as in male controls, and treatment with female hormones shifted the hypothalamus towards the female direction in the same way as female controls. They concluded: "The findings suggest that, throughout life, gonadal hormones remain essential for maintaining aspects of sex-specific differences in the human brain."[19]

Brain-based research has repeatedly shown that female-to-male transsexuals have several male-like characteristics in neuroanatomy. In 2010, a team of neuroscientists compared 18 female-to-male transsexuals with 24 male and 19 female gynephilic controls, using an MRI technique called diffusion tensor imaging or DTI.[18] DTI is a specialized technique for visualizing white matter of the brain, and white matter structure is one of the differences in neuroanatomy between men and women. The study found that the white matter pattern in female-to-male transsexuals was shifted in the direction of biological males, even before the female-to-male transsexuals started taking male hormones (which can also modify brain structure).

Brain function
Androphilic male-to-female transsexuals
Studies have shown that androphilic male-to-female transsexuals show a shift towards the female direction in brain anatomy. In 2009, a German team of radiologists led by Gizewski compared 12 androphilic transsexuals with 12 cisgender males and 12 cisgender females. Using functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI), they found that when shown erotica, the cisgender men responded in several brain regions that the cisgender women did not, and that the sample of androphilic transsexuals was shifted towards the female direction in brain responses.[20]

In another study, Rametti and colleagues used diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) to compare 18 androphilic male-to-female transsexuals with 19 gynephilic males and 19 androphilic cisgender females. The androphilic transsexuals differed from both control groups in multiple brain areas, including the superior longitudinal fasciculus, the right anterior cingulum, the right forceps minor, and the right corticospinal tract. The study authors concluded that androphilic transsexuals were halfway between the patterns exhibited by male and female controls.[21]

Gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals
While MRI taken on gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals have likewise shown differences in the brain from non-transsexuals, no feminization of the brain's structure have, however, been identified. Researchers of the Karolinska Institute of Stockholm used MRI to compare 24 gynephilic male-to-female transsexuals with 24 cisgender male and 24 cisgender female controls. None of the study participants were on hormone treatment. The researchers found sex-typical differentiation between the MtF transsexuals and cisgender males, and the cisgender females; but the gynephilic transsexuals "displayed also singular features and differed from both control groups by having reduced thalamus and putamen volumes and elevated GM volumes in the right insular and inferior frontal cortex and an area covering the right angular gyrus".

These researchers concluded that:

Contrary to the primary hypothesis, no sex-atypical features with signs of 'feminization' were detected in the transsexual group ... The present study does not support the dogma that [male-to-female transsexuals] have atypical sex dimorphism in the brain but confirms the previously reported sex differences. The observed differences between MtF-TR and controls raise the question as to whether gender dysphoria may be associated with changes in multiple structures and involve a network (rather than a single nodal area).[22]

Berglund et al. (2008) tested the response of gynephilic MtF transsexuals to two steroids hypothesized to be sex pheromones: the progestin-like 4,16-androstadien-3-one (AND) and the estrogen-like 1,3,5(10),16-tetraen-3-ol (EST). Despite the difference in sexual orientation, the MtFs' hypothalamic networks activated in response to the AND pheromone, like the androphilic female control groups. Both groups experienced amygdala activation in response to EST. Gynephilic male control groups experienced hypothalamic activation in response to EST. However, the MtF subjects also experienced limited hypothalamic activation to EST. The researchers concluded that in terms of pheromone activation, MtFs occupy an intermediate position with predominantly female features.[23] The MtF transsexual subjects had not undergone any hormonal treatment at the time of the study, according to their own declaration beforehand, and confirmed by repeated tests of hormonal levels.[23]

Gynephilic female-to-male transsexuals
Another team of neuroscientists, led by Nawata in Japan, used a technique called single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT) to compare the regional cerebral blood flow (rCBF) of 11 gynephilic FtM transsexuals with that of 9 androphilic cis females. Although the study did not include a sample of biological males so that a conclusion of "male shift" could be made, the study did reveal that the gynephilic FtM transsexuals showed significant decrease in blood flow in the left anterior cingulate cortex and a significant increase in the right insula, two brain regions known to respond during sexual arousal.[24]

Prenatal androgen exposure
Prenatal androgen exposure, the lack thereof, or poor sensitivity to prenatal androgens are commonly cited mechanisms to explain the above discoveries. To test this, studies have examined the differences between transsexuals and cisgender individuals in digit ratio (a generally accepted marker for prenatal androgen exposure). A meta-analysis concluded that the effect sizes for this association were small or nonexistent.[25]

Congenital adrenal hyperplasia in persons with XX sex chromosomes results in what is considered to be excess exposure to prenatal androgens, resulting in masculinization of the genitalia and, typically, controversial prenatal hormone treatment[26] and postnatal surgical interventions.[27] Individuals with CAH are usually raised as girls and tend to have similar cognitive abilities to the typical female, including spatial ability, verbal ability, language lateralization, handedness and aggression. Research has shown that people with CAH and XX chromosomes will be more likely to be same sex attracted,[26] and at least 5.2% of these individuals develop serious gender dysphoria.[28]

In males with 5-alpha-reductase deficiency, conversion of testosterone to dihydrotestosterone is disrupted, decreasing the masculinization of genitalia. Individuals with this condition are typically raised as females due to their feminine appearance at a young age. However, more than half of males with this condition raised as females become males later in their life. Scientists speculate that the definition of masculine characteristics during puberty and the increased social status afforded to men are two possible motivations for a female-to-male transition.[28]
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Re: could elena delle donne play in the nba? 

Post#300 » by post » Thu Sep 19, 2019 1:05 am

Ecmic wrote:
post wrote:
Ecmic wrote:
If history is a guide, she'd lose somewhere between 2-3% on her three pointer in the NBA (and this isn't factoring the difference in absolute defensive pressures between the NBA and WNBA). There just wouldn't be interest in a 37% (probably less) three-point shooter that would be a liability in pretty much every other aspect of the game.


over the last 4 years she shot a combined 41% from 3. she's played 7 seasons. her rookie year she shot 43% from 3. her second year she missed a lot of time with injury and had a sub par 3 point shooting year for her. her third year was a great year overall but an outlier from 3 as she shot 31% from 3. so if you take her last four years and her rookie year from 3 she's at 41.8% for her career from 3 which is a more accurate estimate of how she really shoots from 3 when healthy.

in terms of her percentages going down based on history, i'm not sure what you are referring to, but let's compare her to curry. curry shot 41% from 3 in college. he shoots 43% from 3 in the nba. now i suspect the defense in the nba would lower her percentages, but if she's starting with a 41.8% and it gets knocked down to 39.8% because of nba defense that still makes her a roughly 40% 3 point shooter



I was referencing the trend that developed when the NBA moved the three point line to, basically, the WNBA’s current distance for a few years in the 90s.

The five year trend of ~33% three-point shooting prior to the relocation (with little variance) shot up to 36% basically overnight. That’s the most cut-and-dry, variable-controlled data we have for how distance affects percentage.

Move a 41.5% shooter at 22’2” back to 23’9”, and historical data shows they’re going to lose 2-3% on their shot. Factor in a transition from shooting against a WNBA defense to shooting against an NBA defense, and it’s more than reasonable to assume that Delle Donne would shoot somewhere in the range of 36-38% in the NBA.

My personal view is that’s still too rosy, but even still, it’s no where close to elite enough to cover for every other weakness.


you make a reasonable point. however i'll point to jeff hornacek (6'4" 190 compared to delle donne 6'5" 187), one of the best pure shooters of all time in the nba. in the 3 years when the nba 3 point line was shortened he shot 41.6% on 637 attempts and 43.8% on 346 attempts in the 3 years after the line was pushed back further. considering delle donne is one of the best pure shooters of all time i think that's a reasonable comparison

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