Lebron gotta be considered the GOAT now when the Lakers win the title

[JoeyLightYears]

Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league. He created another super team. Only team with 2 1st teamers.

Does that also apply to the 1995/96 Bulls who had two first teamers (and also 3 all-defensive first teamers and the 6th man of the year)?

Or is that different because MJ didn't "create" that team?

That bulls team? Of course. But they were all home grown. That was one team. Bulls weren't the only team with top end talent.

Again...Lebron had to create teams. You have no counter to that other than the bobbing and weaving to invalidate MJ and pick apart my logic, rather than justify why Lebron creating super teams should be respected. I see you.

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"Logic" is an interesting choice of words from someone who conflates management with player performance. If the Bulls never constructed a good team around MJ, he would either have had to leave to win titles or he would have ended his career like Dominique Wilkins.

[twyzted]

Big difference the bulls were a team that won three straight rings with vets that knew how to win basketball games comparing them to the lakers minus Lebron isn’t a good comparison at all .

Lakers have many experienced role players as well like Rondo, Dwight, Green or Morris and Bradley, in fact they have the oldest roster in the NBA.

The bulls added toni kukoc (one of the best european player ever), Steve kerr, Luc Longley and pete meyers.

Kukoc in his first year was 11-4-3 on 49.7%TS with .086WS/48 and 1.0 BPM, he also needed his adjustment period in the NBA. He was very useful in PO though.

Pippen was 3rd and 6th in MVP voting in 94-95. So was it a 'super team' and these rings doesn't count?

And I'm not trying to downplay Jordan's impact, his GOAT impact is visible by a fact he improved this team realistically by 5-6 points of SRS, that's historic. But these haters have to calm down with 'super team' and 'irrelevant ring' cards.

Yes much better than bojan. Im not downplaying what the bulls did without Jordan but they added more than rookie bogdan and brad wanamaker. Plus a well coached team with a good system but missing that little extra.

For me a ring is a ring, no asterisks.

[Big Joke Line]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

Scottie was great. Far from an alpha.

[RB34]

Only team with 2 NBA first teamers. Only team with 2 top 5 players including DPOY candidate.

[dreamshake]

As a huge Scottie Pippen fan, I love LeBron fans. They are the only ones who agree with me that Pip Is better then Wade, AD, and Kyrie.

If LeBron fans are the only ones who agree Scottie Pippen is better than Kyrie Irving, maybe it says a lot about LeBron fans

[prophet_of_rage]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

MJ just had the most talented teams possible. He had Big 4s to get past mosy 90s teams Big 2s.

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[prophet_of_rage]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

Or Horace Grant or Dennis Rodman.

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[prophet_of_rage]

Yep, when you repeatedly take out Demar Derozan with two all-stars, you are the GOAT!

I guess when you repeatedly take out Ewing who had no help with your two All-Stars is a better measuring stick?

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[michaelm]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

MJ just had the most talented teams possible. He had Big 4s to get past mosy 90s teams Big 2s.

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Nobody else wanted Rodman who was considered a spent force. And who exactly has developed alongside LeBron to be a player of Pippen’s standard ?.

[LikeABosh]

No. Bron kept teaming up with players who were the alpha of their teams before playing with him. That alone is a red flag.

MJ never did that and dominated.

But longevity wise, gotta give it to Bron for his consistency.

What is the record of Jordan without the great Scottie Pippen?

0 rings that's fact.

But that doesn't change the fact Bron continue to seek out alphas to pursue his runs. That's facts too, no?

Alpha Anthony Davis, Kyrie Irving, and Kevin Love. What is that like 2 combined series wins without LeBron?

Wade was the only alpha

[trueballer7]

I still think Jordan's the GOAT.
But he had plenty of help.
In hindsight, If you were to compare players Jordan played with to modern day players , you'd get something similar to this.

Jordan's Team // Lebron's Team (Pick one from the list)

Scottie Pippen // Luka, Dame, WB, Harden, AD, KD, Steph - (Top 5 - 10 Players)
Grant/Rodman // Draymond, Montresz - (Rebounder / Glue)
Toni Kukoc // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver, Redick - (Marksmen)
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)

Phil Jackson // Pops, Nurse, Spo, Stevens

I wonder what LeBron would of done if he had a squad like that.

Yeah,
Scottie Pippen in 1987, 7 ppg bench player
Grant in 1987, 7ppg bench player / Rodman in 1996, 34 years old SF turned undersized PF, couldnt score to save his life
Toni Kukoc in 1996 // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)
Phil Jackson in 1989 rookie coach, trying to implement a new system

If Lebron had a squad like he would have done the following,
Scottie Pippen - traded
Horace Grant - traded, Rodman - traded
Toni Kukoc -- spot up shooter
Paxson/Kerr, we're good
BJ/Harper --traded
Luc Longley // traded
Phil Jackson --shoved, shoulder bumped, fired, depression, panic attacks

Y are we selecting pip and grant as rookies?
That's not the time when the bulls became champs.

Scottie is top 5 player year MJ left.

As for Rodman, do you not know what impact he had in those bulls run? I'm sure you do, I don't have to elaborate on that.

The rest of the post just pure hatred. Haha.
Since you downgrading all of MJs teammates.
You making it seem like he did everything. If that's the case, why was he getting spanked in the east before Scottie became an all star?

How come he couldn't take 1987 pip and grant to finals ?
LeBron took garbage cavs to finals.

MJ is Goat, but he had help. People forget this.

Pip and Grant 1987 is what Jordan got and he stuck with them until he made'm champions 3peat. Lebron is trading'em both.
Please, elaborate on Rodmans' impact a bit more, educate me with you informed opinion. Tell me about Bulls matching up league MVP Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp at PF with Rodman. Not that Dennis wasnt a phenomenal role player, he was, but Jordan didnt need his role players to do anything else but deliver on their specialities which they could do game in game out, no problem. The rest, the difficult part that takes the best of the best to deliver, he'd take care of regardless of specifics (system, no system, types of teamates, opponents, stage etc). A player like Rodman would be worthless to little Lebroni, for Lebroni needs a very particular supporting cast to win, he cant afford no Rodmans' that cant shoot or score.
Scottie became an all star in 1992, KA-BOOM! How you like that.
Nobody is downgrading anyone. Bulls werent supposed to even win one championship, let alone dominate basketball history. You dont get to throw MJ's success to his face as reason to take him down. Luc Longley...

[ThreeMileAllan]

Oh boy another thread with the same arguments. Honestly, LeBron only has himself to blame for not having more rings. If he didn't start this super team bs, then he wouldn't have gotten ocked by the Durant warriors.

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[ThreeMileAllan]

Lebron still tryin to catch up to Kobe let alone mj.

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Dude, just stop. Lebron is not the GOAT, but there is no question he is higher up the GOAT list than Kobe

I dont know if I even buy that. Lebron 9 years into his career deferred to Kobe on the redeem team.

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[Air Apparent]

i commend all the superstars that forced themselves to completely sacrifice their game to keep lebron happy, too bad it never worked long-term because he was always gonna go hunt for the next younger superstar to keep afloat

[michaelm]

Does that also apply to the 1995/96 Bulls who had two first teamers (and also 3 all-defensive first teamers and the 6th man of the year)?

Or is that different because MJ didn't "create" that team?

That bulls team? Of course. But they were all home grown. That was one team. Bulls weren't the only team with top end talent.

Again...Lebron had to create teams. You have no counter to that other than the bobbing and weaving to invalidate MJ and pick apart my logic, rather than justify why Lebron creating super teams should be respected. I see you.

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"Logic" is an interesting choice of words from someone who conflates management with player performance. If the Bulls never constructed a good team around MJ, he would either have had to leave to win titles or he would have ended his career like Dominique Wilkins.

But it was very obviously possible to build a team around Jordan, and he didn’t need to move, and a franchise which won no titles before him and has won none since won 6 titles rather than 1 with him.

[michaelm]

i commend all the superstars that forced themselves to completely sacrifice their game to keep lebron happy, too bad it never worked long-term because he was always gonna go hunt for the next younger superstar to keep afloat

To be fair not with AD though, if he had always played the way he has this year with other elite players I would have had no problem.

[michaelm]

Yeah,
Scottie Pippen in 1987, 7 ppg bench player
Grant in 1987, 7ppg bench player / Rodman in 1996, 34 years old SF turned undersized PF, couldnt score to save his life
Toni Kukoc in 1996 // Manu, Lou Will, Jamal Crawford - (6MOY)
Paxson/Kerr // Korver
BJ/Harper // George Hill, Dejounte - (Point)
Luc Longley // Spencer Hawes, Alex Len (Center)
Phil Jackson in 1989 rookie coach, trying to implement a new system

If Lebron had a squad like he would have done the following,
Scottie Pippen - traded
Horace Grant - traded, Rodman - traded
Toni Kukoc -- spot up shooter
Paxson/Kerr, we're good
BJ/Harper --traded
Luc Longley // traded
Phil Jackson --shoved, shoulder bumped, fired, depression, panic attacks

Y are we selecting pip and grant as rookies?
That's not the time when the bulls became champs.

Scottie is top 5 player year MJ left.

As for Rodman, do you not know what impact he had in those bulls run? I'm sure you do, I don't have to elaborate on that.

The rest of the post just pure hatred. Haha.
Since you downgrading all of MJs teammates.
You making it seem like he did everything. If that's the case, why was he getting spanked in the east before Scottie became an all star?

How come he couldn't take 1987 pip and grant to finals ?
LeBron took garbage cavs to finals.

MJ is Goat, but he had help. People forget this.

Pip and Grant 1987 is what Jordan got and he stuck with them until he made'm champions 3peat. Lebron is trading'em both.
Please, elaborate on Rodmans' impact a bit more, educate me with you informed opinion. Tell me about Bulls matching up league MVP Karl Malone and Shawn Kemp at PF with Rodman. Not that Dennis wasnt a phenomenal role player, he was, but Jordan didnt need his role players to do anything else but deliver on their specialities which they could do game in game out, no problem. The rest, the difficult part that takes the best of the best to deliver, he'd take care of regardless of specifics (system, no system, types of teamates, opponents, stage etc). A player like Rodman would be worthless to little Lebroni, for Lebroni needs a very particular supporting cast to win, he cant afford no Rodmans' that cant shoot or score.
Scottie became an all star in 1992, KA-BOOM! How you like that.
Nobody is downgrading anyone. Bulls werent supposed to even win one championship, let alone dominate basketball history. You dont get to throw MJ's success to his face as reason to take him down. Luc Longley...

I am Australian, and find it hard to disagree with MJ’s assessment of him at the time.

[Dutchball97]

There is no clear cut GOAT and there never will be. A 4th title would make LeBron's case stronger but you can't fault people for still picking MJ, Kareem or Russell ahead of him.

[LesGrossman]

Lebron is playing on the ONLY super team in the league.

Lakers aren't 'super team', they're just very strong contender like many teams before. Yeah, they're stacked at the top with with LeBron and AD, but their third best player throughout this season is ... Alex Caruso? KCP? Kuzma? 35yo Dwight as a backup?

Lakers are 'super team' that:
- before season was doubted by many whether they are even contender per se
- during season most people thought Clippers have more upside
- before playoffs many people thought 8th seed can make an upset here and eliminate Lakers, and media run narrative about how much in trouble Lakers will be against Blazers

That's clearly a perception every super team receives throughout a season.

No one is denying that Lakers turned out to be one of the top contenders in the league, but when people post factum pretend that Lakers are super team because in fact they may win a whole thing it is so delusional.

Or, in other words, imagine that you put rookie Bojan Bogdanovic and Brad Wanamaker in place of LeBron in this Lakers team, they win 55 games next year, and then play seven close matches in playoffs with a team that was close to win championship later that year.

Oh, wait, I'm talking about Chicago Bulls in '94 after first Jordan's retirement, that replaced Jordan with Peter Myers from Italy and Toni Kukoc, who was 11-4-3 on 49%TS as a rookie, yet they won 55 games and played close 7-matches series against Knicks, who lost NBA Finals in fourth quarter of game 7.

Not to mention that this Knicks' team was one of the best teams Jordan met during his first 3peat period. Basically his support was good enough to play toe to toe against one of his best opponents without him.

"many people thought" doesnt matter. He's the only one playing alongside another super star. He did the very same thing for the third time now and his stans still try to deny it. His #2 is better than most teams' #1, thats not how you become G.O.A.T.. I wish we could just end those discussions.

[blackcosmos]

LBJ forfeit the GOAT title when he join the Miami Heat